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Some interesting claims about the F-22 on Wikipedia

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 14:07
by FDiron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22

This site makes some very interesting claims about the F-22.

RE: Very informative page on the F-22

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 15:19
by Guysmiley
Wikipedia is an interesting beast. You have to realize that anyone can edit the page. It kind of needs to be taken with a grain of salt (especially if there is no cited source for a piece of information)

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 16:49
by Shonuff
is that statement by paul metz true?

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 17:07
by snypa777
* Maximum speed: >Mach 2.42, 1,600 mph (2,570 km/h) at high altitude
* Cruise speed: >Mach 1.72, 1,140 mph (1,830 km/h) at high altitude
* Range: ferry 2,000 mi (3,200 km)
* Service ceiling: >50,000 ft USAF, 60,000 Boeing (>15,000 m, 18,000 m)
* Rate of climb: ft/min[3] (m/s) Better than F-15 (mentioned later in blurb).
* Wing loading: 96 lb/ft² (470 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.3~1.41
* Maximum g-load: 9.5 g

Yep, interesting! We have never seen true top speed or supercruise maximums.
That`s Wikipedia for you! Actually, it is amazing how many web pages quote directly from Wiki`. It is suspected that the F-22 can do better than M 1.7 in supercruise now but no one is saying.... 8)

Who knows if Metz was BS-ing or not. Is Metz pro-F-22 or not? Ok, he flew the thing but does he like it?

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 17:12
by Guysmiley
Didn't see any cited reference to the Metz "quote", so who knows. The official AF page says non-AB cruise of Mach 1.5+, max speed of "Mach 2 class".

Here is an interesting interview with Paul Metz (with no reference to maximum speeds) http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 17:41
by snypa777
Think that about ties up any doubts that Metz is an F-22 fan! I hadn`t heard about the guy previously.... :lol:

I don`t like Carlo Kopp usually but he let Metz do all the talking.
I found it interesting that a pilot can still over-G a Viper in the roll. Even with it`s Flight control software. Saying that, the interview is 7 years old...

No such worries with the `22. Carefree handling seems the buzz-phrase for the latest gen` of fighters.

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2006, 22:12
by sferrin
I saw the piece of the Discovery Channel where they were talking to Paul Metz. His exact quote about the speed was "it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. The top speed is classified but it'll do sixteen-hundred miles per hour." As for him being an F-22 fan people have asked him which is better the F-22 or the F-23 and he tap dances all around that one :lol: (He was the chief test pilot on both the YF-23 and the F-22A).

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 00:55
by snypa777
sferrin wrote:I saw the piece of the Discovery Channel where they were talking to Paul Metz. His exact quote about the speed was "it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. The top speed is classified but it'll do sixteen-hundred miles per hour." As for him being an F-22 fan people have asked him which is better the F-22 or the F-23 and he tap dances all around that one :lol: (He was the chief test pilot on both the YF-23 and the F-22A).



Lol, I think a whole lot of people tap danced around that question!

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 09:42
by Raptor_One
I actually did the math and posted this in a much older thread, but if you calculate the possible Mach numbers that 16000 MPH equates to and discard impossibly high Mach numbers and indicated/calibrated airspeeds at low altitudes, you come out with something aroudn Mach 2.42 around 36-40K. So if he was telling the truth about 1600 MPH, the F-22 can do at least Mach 2.4 or thereabouts at altitude.

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 13:47
by Meathook
I have a nice video if I can get it to post here...never mind, say the file is too big - sorry guys

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 14:07
by toan
The supercurise capability of F-22A has been confirmed by EX-USAF Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper:

http://www.hilltoptimes.com/story.asp?e ... oryid=5353

“Today I flew the Raptor at speeds exceeding Mach 1.7 without afterburners,” General Jumper said. “To be able to go that fast without afterburners means that nobody can get you in their sights or get a lock-on. The aircraft’s impressive stealth capability, combined with its super cruise (capability), will give any adversary a very hard time.” (Courtesy of Air Education and Training Command News Service).

A Japanese military magazine declared that the maximal speed / maximal supercurise speed of Raptor could reach 2.25 Mach+ / 1.82 Mach last year. But I have no idea where its information came from.

As for the empty weight of Raptor, some web-sites of USAF declared it as "40,000 Ibs / 18,000 kg class", while some special report of IDR in 2002/06/01 declared it as "19,489 kg".

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=199

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/afweapons/l/blf22.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... l31673.pdf

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 14:41
by toan
* Maximum speed: >Mach 2.42, 1,600 mph (2,570 km/h) at high altitude
A: No idea, but I think it should be achieveable by Raptor at a certain range of altitude if you don't care about the possible damage of its stealthy coating.


* Cruise speed: >Mach 1.72, 1,140 mph (1,830 km/h) at high altitude
A: Generally confirmed by EX-USAF Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper.


* Range: ferry 2,000 mi (3,200 km)
A: 2,778 ~ 3,704 km according to different sources of military news / information (with internal fuel only).


* Service ceiling: >50,000 ft USAF, 60,000 Boeing (>15,000 m, 18,000 m)
A: Many military analysts believe its service ceiling could reach 70,000-fts class.

* Wing loading: 96 lb/ft² (470 kg/m²)
A: The wing area of F-22 is 78.3 m2, and 470 x 78.3 = 36,801 kg............


* Maximum sustaineous g-load: 9.5 g
A: This has been confirmed by a Raptor's pilot this year.

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2006, 18:33
by checksixx
Well having worked for Gen. Jumper, I can tell you that he does not BS about anything. They publicly stated 9.5G's about the Raptor at the Langley show this year. Keep in mind thats only limited by what the pilot can take. The F-117 airframe has a max G load of 12G's.

-Check

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2006, 17:14
by Meathook
I would agree, I too know him, he tells it like it is, I always liked that about him (especially when we was the 57th FWW/CC) back at Nellis. - Good, did very well for himself too.

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2006, 01:24
by Obi_Offiah
checksixx wrote:Well having worked for Gen. Jumper, I can tell you that he does not BS about anything. They publicly stated 9.5G's about the Raptor at the Langley show this year. Keep in mind thats only limited by what the pilot can take. The F-117 airframe has a max G load of 12G's.

-Check


I've seen this mentioned alot, about the pilot being the weakest link. Modern G-suits enable pilots to reach 12G but 9G seems to be the design limit even for advanced modern fighters. Do the designers feel that 9G is sufficient, that by increasing aircrafts structural G tolerance above this amount may compromise performance, (added weight)?.

Cheers
Obi