Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 08:33
by zero-one
To be clear I don't believe the reports. But I'd like to have more evidence. Maybe people here might have more info.

https://www.businessinsider.sg/photos-r ... ?r=US&IR=T

The pilot claims to have spotted the F-22, which has all-aspect stealth and is virtually invisible to traditional radars, during combat operations in Syria.

After describing at length how these encounters usually go (there are dedicated lines of communication used to avoid conflict between Russia and the US as they operate in close proximity over Syria), the author claims to have “locked” on to the F-22.

A Business Insider translation of part of the caption reads: “F-22 was arrogant and was punished after a short air battle, for which of course it got f—–.”


note, there are pictures of the alleged lock on the link

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 11:01
by hythelday
I am sure there is NO reason whatsoever Russians, who have NEVER fabricated evidence to support their wild claims and accusations. It's not like they would try to persuade the whole world that Su-35 can take on F-22, since their true Raptor-killer has NO problems at all.

You do you Russia. The more of this BS they produce, the funnier it will be seeing them scrambling for excuses once a real engagement happens.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 11:24
by quicksilver
Alex Lockie must now be a Russian troll. This is National Enquirer ‘martians kidnapped me as a baby’ stuff.

They might have used something besides a fuzzy YF-22 planform image if they wanted a few more clicks... :crazypilot:

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 12:57
by sferrin
"“F-22 was arrogant and was punished after a short air battle, for which of course it got f—–.”"

The "pilot" sounds like a 13 year old COD "warrior". :lol:

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 13:06
by marsavian
after a short air battle


More like the F-22 was minding its business escorting the Su-35 and the latter started playing top gun games. If it was for real the Su-35 would have been dodging AMRAAMs from distance while the F-22 beared down on it at supercruise speeds. Ah well whatever floats their little boats ;).

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 14:20
by mixelflick
Cobra123 will be here shortly to fill us in. Looks like the Russians were right: SU-35 good enough to beat anyone today, no need to mass produce the SU-57 :)

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 14:36
by mk82
Saw the “lock on” photos. Looks photoshopped.

Even if the Russian story is true and the supposedly sh*t hot SU 35 pilot is playing Top Gunski with a F-22.....did the SU 35 pilot notice the F-22’s wingman on a high perch.....ready to shove an AIM 9X or an AMRAAM up the SU 35’s/Babushka’s ar*e should the SU 35 do something really stupid and hostile? How F-22 number 3 and 4 flanking the oblivious SU 35? No..................too bad!!!!! :devil:

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 15:55
by SpudmanWP
Problems I have with the image:
--Wrong color, SU-35S MFD has green text
--Blurred border on left
--White box around "target" plane
--Background IR image (behind plane) is square (ie does not take up the entire display)
--No MFD buttons or MFD frame visible

I wonder what video game they pulled it off of?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:30
by icemaverick
Here’s a link to the images:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BoGK8jtAeK6 ... er_bomber_

They look pretty suspect

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:35
by juretrn
The lack of symbology is slightly suspicious.
Image

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:40
by SpudmanWP
The pic is not from a "HUD", but the MFD.

The second pic shows it's position in relation to the rest of the MFD.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:46
by botsing
It's just some poser on Instagram who is currently laughing his behind off for all the free attention he gets.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:51
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The wing just doesn't look deep enough, the trailing edge looks all wrong.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 20:01
by falcon.16
SpudmanWP wrote:Problems I have with the image:
--Wrong color, SU-35S MFD has green text
--Blurred border on left
--White box around "target" plane
--Background IR image (behind plane) is square (ie does not take up the entire display)
--No MFD buttons or MFD frame visible

I wonder what video game they pulled it off of?


OLS-35 have not thermail imaging, so it must be tv image. Am i wrong? and if it is tv frame image really it is very poor quality. It is very dificult to see it good.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 20:16
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The image quality from the OSF on the Rafale captured during BFM DACT was much sharper.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 21:09
by SpudmanWP
falcon.16 wrote:OLS-35 have not thermail imaging, so it must be tv image. Am i wrong? and if it is tv frame image really it is very poor quality. It is very difficult to see it good.
Since the SU-35 "could" have mounted a FLIR pod, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on that point.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 00:43
by firebase99
quicksilver wrote:Alex Lockie must now be a Russian troll. This is National Enquirer ‘martians kidnapped me as a baby’ stuff.

They might have used something besides a fuzzy YF-22 planform image if they wanted a few more clicks... :crazypilot:


This ^^^. When I first saw it Im like thats a J31 but yea, the YF-22. The morons who do this...I just laugh.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 06:31
by element1loop
Yup, YF-22 wing. They degraded the nose area to make it look less obvious.

Image

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 11:21
by niafron
SpudmanWP wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:OLS-35 have not thermail imaging, so it must be tv image. Am i wrong? and if it is tv frame image really it is very poor quality. It is very difficult to see it good.
Since the SU-35 "could" have mounted a FLIR pod, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on that point.


https://defenseissues.files.wordpress.c ... qrkpwi.jpg

Accordind to this, it got both TV and IR.

Anyway, the claim is of no interest, obviously a SU 35 may lock a F 22 at some range, the problem is to know what happened prior to that.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 12:30
by sferrin
niafron wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:OLS-35 have not thermail imaging, so it must be tv image. Am i wrong? and if it is tv frame image really it is very poor quality. It is very difficult to see it good.
Since the SU-35 "could" have mounted a FLIR pod, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on that point.


https://defenseissues.files.wordpress.c ... qrkpwi.jpg

Accordind to this, it got both TV and IR.

Anyway, the claim is of no interest, obviously a SU 35 may lock a F 22 at some range, the problem is to know what happened prior to that.


Kinda like the Rapier crew who "detected" a B-2 on their IRST. . .at an airshow. :roll:

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 13:14
by eloise
MFi7rlSNmk4%5B1%5D.jpg

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 21:04
by XanderCrews
Thats a YF-22

Su-35 clearly capable of time travel

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 21:42
by sinusoiddelta
And what is this conviently placed high contrast rectangle?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 21:55
by marsavian
Someone is laughably poor in Photoshop ;).

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 03:02
by element1loop
sinusoiddelta wrote:And what is this conveniently placed high contrast rectangle?


Someone's desktop wallpaper went rogue?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 18:22
by charlielima223
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... blem-34267

I always knew dave majumdar was a hack piece writer...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 19:23
by marsavian
Inaccurate too

Meanwhile, during Red Flag Alaska in 2012, German Luftwaffe pilots flying the Eurofighter Typhoon noted that they could acquire a track on the Raptor at ranges of about 20 nautical miles using their EuroFIRST PIRATE infrared search and track.


German/Austrian Typhoons don't have Pirate IRST

.... In 1991, Germany decided not to participate in the development due to cost issues but reserved the right to use the system.

Image

Image

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 18:00
by niafron
Sorry, but...:


Image


Image


To be fully honnest, in most of the pictures i found, it wasn't PIRATE on the German Typhoon. Why? No idea. But there's some of these devices in the Luftwaffe.

The picture of the plane with 3 F 22 figures as signs of victories and without the PIRATE prove nothing for the device could be dismounted ( well, i guess so, anyway it's possible for the OSF on the Rafale).

Sure, it don't prove either the Typhoon engaged in the Red Flag 2012 exercise had PIRATE mounted.

If someone got more data on that, he's welcome.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 20:10
by marsavian
Those are test aircraft, combat units don't have a Eurofighter Typhoon logo on the tail and the 98th Wing is not an operational unit ;). As for your dismounted theory on the actual German plane that took part in that Red Flag ... wild, far-fetched. In 2013 the Luftwaffe received the 400th Typhoon built ... still without Pirate.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... e-4142253/

Image

Their first Tranche 2 in 2009 ... Pirate less

Image

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 16:06
by hythelday
T-38s "kill" Raptors without any IRSTs. F-22 silhouettes on Luftwaffe Typhoons are like risen F150 trucks with beam lights - owner thinks he's the man, while the rest of commuters think owner is an idiot with a small weiner.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 16:37
by zero-one
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-373312/

USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.


I wonder why the Luftwaffe statements on this exercise are so popular but the USAF's story is burred under a rock.
Come to think of it, if you're an average joe who managed to beat Steph Curry in one round of a 3 point shoot out that becomes headline news. Nobody cares about the 9 other rounds where Curry mopped the floor with you.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 14:56
by niafron
marsavian wrote:Those are test aircraft, combat units don't have a Eurofighter Typhoon logo on the tail and the 98th Wing is not an operational unit ;). As for your dismounted theory on the actual German plane that took part in that Red Flag ... wild, far-fetched. In 2013 the Luftwaffe received the 400th Typhoon built ... still without Pirate.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... e-4142253/

Image

Their first Tranche 2 in 2009 ... Pirate less

Image







And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...

Image

Well, anyway, i asked the question on a french forum, the answer was the same: no PIRATE in the Luftwaffe.

They gave me that link ( confirmed page 6):

https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/wh ... ower_0.pdf

And these pics of the 2012 Red Flag Alaska:

http://archive.defense.gov/photoessays/ ... px?ID=2936

So you're surely right, but there's a mystery there: why did they test the PIRATE and what about this pic above?

Concerning the F 22, it seem the PIRATE was tested against it at Lakenheath with "good results" according to the RAF.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 15:04
by marsavian
And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...


Pirate is on the left hand side of Typhoon when fitted. Why on their test aircraft? I think test aircraft are shared between the nations at different times and generally have all the updates on them over time. However there would be a strong chance that Pirate would be on any new Typhoons ordered to replace Tornado maybe even the enhanced one fitted on Gripen E as SA is crucial when you are bombing ground targets.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 18:21
by niafron
marsavian wrote:
And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...


Pirate is on the left hand side of Typhoon when fitted. Why on their test aircraft? I think test aircraft are shared between the nations at different times and generally have all the updates on them over time. However there would be a strong chance that Pirate would be on any new Typhoons ordered to replace Tornado maybe even the enhanced one fitted on Gripen E as SA is crucial when you are bombing ground targets.


yes, on the left side, take a closer look, you'll see it.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 19:06
by niafron
Anyway, i'm not sur of the efficiency of current IRST... as considered as obsolete, it was dropped on the OSF ( it keep only the TV sensor on the RAFALE F 3 variant), it seem l'armée de l'air consider the infrared seeker of the MICA missile as a fine enough replacement for it.

An improved IRST is however currently developped for the F4 variant. Perhaps it is right now too sensitive to weather conditions.

For the OSF, basically, the IRST was used to detect and track, the TV to identify the target and a laser was supposed to calculate the distance before shooting ( this is the main default, for it could alert the target).

On the F 3 variant, perhaps the TV sensor assumed some functions of the IRST, but l'armée de l'air and Thalès are very secretive about it ( same for the use of the Laser, of what i know, nothing was said about it, some thinks it's possible to shoot without it now).

The range is unknown, but i doubt it is over 30 NM against fighters ( and perhaps not even over 20). So right now, it's not enough to fight Stealth planes with equal chances, but the technology improve quickly.

Sure, it got two tremendous adavantages:
- It's totaly undectable ( well, aside of what i said about the use of a Laser).
- It provide a clear picture of the target wich is mandatory on most current NATO or western allies operations ( in fact all current operations, wich make me think the use of the F 22 wich lack of it could be justified only in the case of a major war scenario, when target identification isn't a priority or as a weapon of deterrence).

So when i see that pic of a F 22 engaged by a Sukhoi at close range over Syria, wether it's a true one or not, my first thought is " what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".

Especially when there's only less than 200 hundred of these planes ( and i will not even speak of that hurricane)...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 22:33
by marsavian
" what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".


Deterrence which is mainly what the F-22 has been doing since inception apart from a few bombing missions against terrorists. US soldiers were attacked by Russian/Syrian mercenaries, the USAF led and protected by F-22s took care of them. F-22 is a clear warning to the Syrians and even Russians not to attack US forces. An F-18 shot down a Su-22 that tried that. The impact and soft power of F-22 has always been greater than its small numbers. Even if an F-22 was surprised and attacked during a routine interception it would be the only time, next time it fought it would be done stealthily and no adversary likes those odds at the moment. No fighter commands as much respect and fear as the F-22 not even your beloved Rafale :).

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 23:52
by juretrn
There are still at least twice as many F-22 as Su-35...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 12:10
by niafron
marsavian wrote:
" what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".


Deterrence which is mainly what the F-22 has been doing since inception apart from a few bombing missions against terrorists. US soldiers were attacked by Russian/Syrian mercenaries, the USAF led and protected by F-22s took care of them. F-22 is a clear warning to the Syrians and even Russians not to attack US forces. An F-18 shot down a Su-22 that tried that. The impact and soft power of F-22 has always been greater than its small numbers. Even if an F-22 was surprised and attacked during a routine interception it would be the only time, next time it fought it would be done stealthily and no adversary likes those odds at the moment. No fighter commands as much respect and fear as the F-22 not even your beloved Rafale :).


Brillant... so if a Syrian fighter attack a US plane in a provocative action , next time, we will have F 22 shooting wild at russian, turkish or perhaps even israeli planes... maybe also civilian flights in order to increase the kill ratio?

F 15, F 16 and F 18 could perfectly clear up the sky of Syria in a matter of minutes, everybody know it, it's not the problem.

It's not about respect and fear, it's about control.

juretrn wrote:There are still at least twice as many F-22 as Su-35...


Considering the USA spend ten times much than the russians in defense budget, the contrary would have been surprising... you know, France is short stake these days, if you don't know what to do with your money, you could give some to us :D .

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 13:22
by madrat
Why is it that we had so many first time posters sign up on the same day a year and a half ago. Someone should look into that.

The US runs a battle space management program capable of tracking 300,000 individual objects whether friend or foe. The only blind shooters would be the Syrians who do not even get Russian track data.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 08:30
by gta4
In fact F-22 already had multiple locks on Su-35s at close range:
http://aviationweek.com/defense/how-f-2 ... over-syria

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 12:55
by marsavian
You need to quote the relevant paragraph for the non-subscribers.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 14:33
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:In fact F-22 already had multiple locks on Su-35s at close range:
http://aviationweek.com/defense/how-f-2 ... over-syria


Which paragraph specifically? I'm not even seeing mention of the Su-35 in there.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 17:33
by gta4
I have at least two reliable sources (by typhoon pilots) showing that at close range, typhoon with helmet mounted display equals raptor without helmet mounted display.

The first source is combat aircraft, april 2013.

The second source is a typhoon pilot blog:
http://theaviationist.com/2013/02/21/ra ... ScnL1f3QpB
Eurofighter has decided to develop for the Typhoon High Off-Bore-Sight Weapons, supported by Helmet Cueing, to retain energy and target tracking ability while manoeuvring WVR (Within Visual Range) at relatively high but sustainable Angles of Attack. For those who may require some additional AoA, the “Strakes” package is progressing well and soon it will be offered to Typhoon’s Customers. Nevertheless, Strakes is not purely about extreme AoA, but also suitable Roll Rates and manageble energy characteristics. Because in the European way of doing things, an all round balanced solution counts more than a single eye opening performance.

It is a fact that against Eastern produced fighters provided with Thrust Vectoring, throughout the years the Typhoon has showed an embarasing (for them) kill-to-loss ratio.

It is a fact that after some initial encounters between the Raptor and the Typhoon, the situation appears of absolute equity. Too early to say if it is the Helmet Cueing or the Thrust Vector, or how much tactics and training are a player in all this. For sure, we are facing two impressively capable machines.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 17:58
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:I have at least two reliable sources (by typhoon pilots) showing that at close range, typhoon with helmet mounted display equals raptor without helmet mounted display.

The first source is combat aircraft, april 2013.

The second source is a typhoon pilot blog. Will upload it later



What does that have to do with F-22s locking up Su-35s?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 08:04
by gta4
Well judging from other replies I thought this thread is already running off topic to Typhoon vs F22...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 12:44
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:Well judging from other replies I thought this thread is already running off topic to Typhoon vs F22...


So of course you said, "In fact F-22 already had multiple locks on Su-35s at close range:" because. . .?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 14:17
by gta4
sferrin wrote:
gta4 wrote:Well judging from other replies I thought this thread is already running off topic to Typhoon vs F22...


So of course you said, "In fact F-22 already had multiple locks on Su-35s at close range:" because. . .?


I remember the full version of that article said something about F-22 locking Su-35?

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 15:50
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
gta4 wrote:Well judging from other replies I thought this thread is already running off topic to Typhoon vs F22...


So of course you said, "In fact F-22 already had multiple locks on Su-35s at close range:" because. . .?


I remember the full version of that article said something about F-22 locking Su-35?


Except that it doesn't. I looked. I'd have loved it if it did but it didn't mention the Su-35 at all.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:10
by gta4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3b-b762QRY

Super hornet allegedly locked on a Su-35...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 06:02
by charlielima223
gta4 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3b-b762QRY

Super hornet allegedly locked on a Su-35...


They've even had encounters with UFOs

Image

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-nav ... t-and-ufo/

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 12:31
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3b-b762QRY

Super hornet allegedly locked on a Su-35...


Still waiting for the "F-22 locked onto a Su-35" evidence.

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 14:13
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:Still waiting for the "F-22 locked onto a Su-35" evidence.


I've never seen an F-22 HUD shot before, can the Raptor actually do that.
Scratch that, I've seen it just once, Max moga was describing his airshow routine and there was a split second shot of a Raptor's HUD view.

But without optical sensors, can the F-22 make a HUD recording?
I bet there are literally hundreds of instances where Raptor's achieved weapons locks on Flankers both from BVR and WVR ranges, but they are all on the threat display monitor and no pictures can be given

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 14:15
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:Still waiting for the "F-22 locked onto a Su-35" evidence.


I've never seen an F-22 HUD shot before, can the Raptor actually do that.
Scratch that, I've seen it just once, Max moga was describing his airshow routine and there was a split second shot of a Raptor's HUD view.

But without optical sensors, can the F-22 make a HUD recording?
I bet there are literally hundreds of instances where Raptor's achieved weapons locks on Flankers both from BVR and WVR ranges, but they are all on the threat display monitor and no pictures can be given

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 16:09
by mixelflick
This "SU-35 allegedly locked onto an F-22" is complete fiction.

You wouldn't publicize that, would you? Unless of course, you're playing mind games/sewing mis/dis-information to create a type of paranoia among US pilots.

Something tells me Raptor pilots aren't very concerned...

Re: Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 16:21
by quicksilver
“...can the F-22 make a HUD recording?”

HUD recording has been around for decades. Lotsa different ways to do so that don’t require ‘optical sensors.’