Su-35 allegedly locked on an F-22

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zero-one

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 16:37

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-373312/

USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.


I wonder why the Luftwaffe statements on this exercise are so popular but the USAF's story is burred under a rock.
Come to think of it, if you're an average joe who managed to beat Steph Curry in one round of a 3 point shoot out that becomes headline news. Nobody cares about the 9 other rounds where Curry mopped the floor with you.
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niafron

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 14:56

marsavian wrote:Those are test aircraft, combat units don't have a Eurofighter Typhoon logo on the tail and the 98th Wing is not an operational unit ;). As for your dismounted theory on the actual German plane that took part in that Red Flag ... wild, far-fetched. In 2013 the Luftwaffe received the 400th Typhoon built ... still without Pirate.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... e-4142253/

Image

Their first Tranche 2 in 2009 ... Pirate less

Image







And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...

Image

Well, anyway, i asked the question on a french forum, the answer was the same: no PIRATE in the Luftwaffe.

They gave me that link ( confirmed page 6):

https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/wh ... ower_0.pdf

And these pics of the 2012 Red Flag Alaska:

http://archive.defense.gov/photoessays/ ... px?ID=2936

So you're surely right, but there's a mystery there: why did they test the PIRATE and what about this pic above?

Concerning the F 22, it seem the PIRATE was tested against it at Lakenheath with "good results" according to the RAF.
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marsavian

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 15:04

And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...


Pirate is on the left hand side of Typhoon when fitted. Why on their test aircraft? I think test aircraft are shared between the nations at different times and generally have all the updates on them over time. However there would be a strong chance that Pirate would be on any new Typhoons ordered to replace Tornado maybe even the enhanced one fitted on Gripen E as SA is crucial when you are bombing ground targets.
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niafron

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 18:21

marsavian wrote:
And what about this one? Not a prototype from the 98th Wing...


Pirate is on the left hand side of Typhoon when fitted. Why on their test aircraft? I think test aircraft are shared between the nations at different times and generally have all the updates on them over time. However there would be a strong chance that Pirate would be on any new Typhoons ordered to replace Tornado maybe even the enhanced one fitted on Gripen E as SA is crucial when you are bombing ground targets.


yes, on the left side, take a closer look, you'll see it.
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niafron

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 19:06

Anyway, i'm not sur of the efficiency of current IRST... as considered as obsolete, it was dropped on the OSF ( it keep only the TV sensor on the RAFALE F 3 variant), it seem l'armée de l'air consider the infrared seeker of the MICA missile as a fine enough replacement for it.

An improved IRST is however currently developped for the F4 variant. Perhaps it is right now too sensitive to weather conditions.

For the OSF, basically, the IRST was used to detect and track, the TV to identify the target and a laser was supposed to calculate the distance before shooting ( this is the main default, for it could alert the target).

On the F 3 variant, perhaps the TV sensor assumed some functions of the IRST, but l'armée de l'air and Thalès are very secretive about it ( same for the use of the Laser, of what i know, nothing was said about it, some thinks it's possible to shoot without it now).

The range is unknown, but i doubt it is over 30 NM against fighters ( and perhaps not even over 20). So right now, it's not enough to fight Stealth planes with equal chances, but the technology improve quickly.

Sure, it got two tremendous adavantages:
- It's totaly undectable ( well, aside of what i said about the use of a Laser).
- It provide a clear picture of the target wich is mandatory on most current NATO or western allies operations ( in fact all current operations, wich make me think the use of the F 22 wich lack of it could be justified only in the case of a major war scenario, when target identification isn't a priority or as a weapon of deterrence).

So when i see that pic of a F 22 engaged by a Sukhoi at close range over Syria, wether it's a true one or not, my first thought is " what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".

Especially when there's only less than 200 hundred of these planes ( and i will not even speak of that hurricane)...
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marsavian

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 22:33

" what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".


Deterrence which is mainly what the F-22 has been doing since inception apart from a few bombing missions against terrorists. US soldiers were attacked by Russian/Syrian mercenaries, the USAF led and protected by F-22s took care of them. F-22 is a clear warning to the Syrians and even Russians not to attack US forces. An F-18 shot down a Su-22 that tried that. The impact and soft power of F-22 has always been greater than its small numbers. Even if an F-22 was surprised and attacked during a routine interception it would be the only time, next time it fought it would be done stealthily and no adversary likes those odds at the moment. No fighter commands as much respect and fear as the F-22 not even your beloved Rafale :).
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 23:52

There are still at least twice as many F-22 as Su-35...
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niafron

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Unread post30 Oct 2018, 12:10

marsavian wrote:
" what's the point to risk such an expansive plane in such an hornet's nest?".


Deterrence which is mainly what the F-22 has been doing since inception apart from a few bombing missions against terrorists. US soldiers were attacked by Russian/Syrian mercenaries, the USAF led and protected by F-22s took care of them. F-22 is a clear warning to the Syrians and even Russians not to attack US forces. An F-18 shot down a Su-22 that tried that. The impact and soft power of F-22 has always been greater than its small numbers. Even if an F-22 was surprised and attacked during a routine interception it would be the only time, next time it fought it would be done stealthily and no adversary likes those odds at the moment. No fighter commands as much respect and fear as the F-22 not even your beloved Rafale :).


Brillant... so if a Syrian fighter attack a US plane in a provocative action , next time, we will have F 22 shooting wild at russian, turkish or perhaps even israeli planes... maybe also civilian flights in order to increase the kill ratio?

F 15, F 16 and F 18 could perfectly clear up the sky of Syria in a matter of minutes, everybody know it, it's not the problem.

It's not about respect and fear, it's about control.

juretrn wrote:There are still at least twice as many F-22 as Su-35...


Considering the USA spend ten times much than the russians in defense budget, the contrary would have been surprising... you know, France is short stake these days, if you don't know what to do with your money, you could give some to us :D .
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Unread post30 Oct 2018, 13:22

Why is it that we had so many first time posters sign up on the same day a year and a half ago. Someone should look into that.

The US runs a battle space management program capable of tracking 300,000 individual objects whether friend or foe. The only blind shooters would be the Syrians who do not even get Russian track data.
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