The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 16:47
by aquietguy

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 17:08
by SpudmanWP
It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 17:34
by zero-one
There seems to be a trend.
The US pioneers something, Russians build a counter, Europeans build it better, Americans pioneer again and the cycle restarts

1.4th gen = F-15 -> Su-27 -> Typhoon/Rafale
2. 5th gen = F-22 -> Su-57 -> Tempest
3. 6th gen -> PCA > ? > ?

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 22:08
by talkitron
Leonardo is an Italian company but the division working on the Tempest project is likely entirely based in the UK. The history of avionics for the Typhoon is confusing because of mergers and acquisitions. For example, Leonardo bought the UK company that had 60% of the share in the Pratorian DASS (defensive aid subsystem) and it is likely this UK-based group that is involved in Tempest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_DASS
http://www.uk.leonardocompany.com
http://www.uk.leonardocompany.com/uk-ac ... ce-systems

I don't see this as any different than BAE Systems producing the Bradley and AMPV for the US Army at US factories. The role of the BAE Systems's UK headquarters in these US Army projects is likely just to count the profits.

Having said that, Leonardo the Italian company might provide some domestic support for Italy's government to join the Tempest project.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 22:59
by tailgate
While I love and admire the allies we have, we are so far ahead of anybody right now it’s silly. I’ve heard talk of 6th gen in the work up stages, I’ve heard from good friends that 7th gen is on the doorstep. A few of my retired aviator friends have told me we are already playing with concepts for the 40-50 timeframe. It amazes me sometimes the forward advancements we are making. Just my thoughts

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 23:44
by aquietguy
SpudmanWP wrote:It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?


So it looks absolutely nothing like a Raptor?

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 23:57
by talkitron
tailgate wrote:While I love and admire the allies we have, we are so far ahead of anybody right now it’s silly. I’ve heard talk of 6th gen in the work up stages, I’ve heard from good friends that 7th gen is on the doorstep. A few of my retired aviator friends have told me we are already playing with concepts for the 40-50 timeframe. It amazes me sometimes the forward advancements we are making. Just my thoughts


Well I am not sure what the distinction is between 6th and 7th gen, it is great we the US are doing lots of R&D. I suspect China has all sorts of high stuff for 2040 planned as well. China is building for the long term and export considerations are minor.

I do agree these European fighter projects are not shaping up to provide much pure warfighting advantage over a F-35 of 2040. The Tempest may indeed more modular and upgradeable than the F-35 and that might appeal to some program partners or export customers. The BAE sheet says the Tempest has "balanced survivability", so I expect it will have closer to Typhoon style performance in the air, including high altitudes.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 01:34
by Corsair1963
It's just an early concept at this stage........ :|

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 02:28
by SpudmanWP
aquietguy wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?


So it looks absolutely nothing like a Raptor?


Wings, check
Two engines, Check
Cockpit, check

Everything else, nope

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 04:14
by Corsair1963
The UK is just testing the waters. Likely to see who maybe interested in a joint future 6th Generation Fighter.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 04:16
by talkitron
Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........ :|


Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 09:21
by f4u7_corsair
zero-one wrote:There seems to be a trend.
The US pioneers something, Russians build a counter, Europeans build it better, Americans pioneer again and the cycle restarts

1.4th gen = F-15 -> Su-27 -> Typhoon/Rafale
2. 5th gen = F-22 -> Su-57 -> Tempest
3. 6th gen -> PCA > ? > ?

You're being delusional if you think Typhoon/Rafale are just European answers (albeit better) to Flanker and Eagle. It's not like Mirage 2000 or Tornado were around...

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:00
by Corsair1963
talkitron wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........ :|


Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP



Such concepts appear all of the time. Yet, most never reach maturity. Also, the UK is well underfunded at the moment. So, how will they find the funding for such an ambitious and expensive project???

Also, the Tempest looks much more like a 5th Generation Fighter than a future 6th Generation one??? So, I have a hard time believing the UK would make the same mistake over again. As it did with the Typhoon. (as did France with the Rafale) :shock:

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:28
by f4u7_corsair
6th generation concept likely includes optionally manned operations, and close intrication with UCAV systems. French-led SCAF and British Tempest both feature these concepts, while JSF doesn't.

Also, what exactly were the mistakes on Rafale programme (and Typhoon, while you're at it)?

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 12:58
by sferrin
talkitron wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........ :|


Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP


On the other hand, none of the released notional ATF artwork remotely resembled either the YF-22 or YF-23.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 13:49
by laos
f4u7_corsair wrote:You're being delusional if you think Typhoon/Rafale are just European answers (albeit better) to Flanker and Eagle. It's not like Mirage 2000 or Tornado were around...


Mirage 2000 was answer to F-16
Tornado was answer to F-111

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 14:06
by zero-one
f4u7_corsair wrote:You're being delusional if you think Typhoon/Rafale are just European answers (albeit better) to Flanker and Eagle. It's not like Mirage 2000 or Tornado were around...


Thats exactly what it is.
Image

Anyway it perfectly states that both the Raptor and Typhoon were conceived as responses to the Su-27.
The Europeans built arguably the best 4th gen while the Americans went ahead to build 5th gen.




Image

With the wing design and aerodynamic layout, What kind of performance can we expect from this beast?
Noticed that its sort of a "chipped Delta" with no canards and no Horizontal Stabs. so turn performance could be mediocre or am I missing something.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:21
by vilters
The only thing the Tiffy has proved is that you need a 122 of them to get 4 combat ready.

The Germans are still not over that one you know. LOL.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 16:02
by mk82
vilters wrote:The only thing the Tiffy has proved is that you need a 122 of them to get 4 combat ready.

The Germans are still not over that one you know. LOL.


Eurofighter maths and Germany still wants to buy more of them!

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 18:22
by jetblast16
Looks a little like a stretched X-32 lol (as others pointed out at least its wing plan form and verts)

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 18:27
by jetblast16
The Europeans built arguably the best 4th gen


I'd take a Block 70 F-16

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 19:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
jetblast16 wrote:
The Europeans built arguably the best 4th gen


I'd take a Block 70 F-16

In terms of systems, definitely. Use the optional F110-GE_132 motor and it should be a Tiffy-like hotrod in a straight line too, but it still won't have as much limited supercruise as the Tiffy or Rafale.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 20:25
by talkitron
Corsair1963 wrote:Also, the UK is well underfunded at the moment. So, how will they find the funding for such an ambitious and expensive project???


Cutting F-35 procurement in the 2030s is one option to free up money. We will know more about the current UK defense budget as soon as this week when the Modernising Defense Programme is released. Of course, the UK government will try to downplay cuts and emphasize additions in such a document.

Also, the Tempest looks much more like a 5th Generation Fighter than a future 6th Generation one??? So, I have a hard time believing the UK would make the same mistake over again. As it did with the Typhoon. (as did France with the Rafale) :shock:


Both the Tempest and the French/German program are about domestic jobs and exports more than unique military capacity. Typhoon has been exported to Austria, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia and Rafale has been exported to Egypt, India, and Qatar. So there is a market although in the future some of these countries will require in-country assembly and technology transfer. Of course, the US may get to these countries first with the F-35. We will see.

Britain and France are pleased with any design win even if it is tied to few new domestic jobs. The UK was quite happy about Australia selecting the Type 26 frigate even though the frigate will be built in Australia and use US combat information systems and weapons.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 22:59
by sferrin
laos wrote:
f4u7_corsair wrote:You're being delusional if you think Typhoon/Rafale are just European answers (albeit better) to Flanker and Eagle. It's not like Mirage 2000 or Tornado were around...


Mirage 2000 was answer to F-16
Tornado was answer to F-111


And Mirage 4000 was the answer to the F-15 (sort of).


Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 23:01
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:
The Europeans built arguably the best 4th gen


I'd take a Block 70 F-16

In terms of systems, definitely. Use the optional F110-GE_132 motor and it should be a Tiffy-like hotrod in a straight line too, but it still won't have as much limited supercruise as the Tiffy or Rafale.


Start with an F-16XL. :twisted:

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 01:12
by tailgate
The scenario I foresee is that the 22’s and 35’s will sweep the skies of any bad guys. This will allow 15/16/18 to operate almost with impunity. It will make the comparisons a moot point. Just my opinion, mind you, but nothing flying right now even comes close to the capability of those two alone

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 03:46
by Corsair1963
The UK is just testing the waters with the Tempest Concept. Likely, looking for a potential partner.....Either why it would be 2035-2040. Before we can expect to see such a fighter start to enter service.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 08:55
by zero-one
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:
The Europeans built arguably the best 4th gen


I'd take a Block 70 F-16

In terms of systems, definitely. Use the optional F110-GE_132 motor and it should be a Tiffy-like hotrod in a straight line too, but it still won't have as much limited supercruise as the Tiffy or Rafale.


I love the F-16V and at low to medium altitude I'd put it against any 4th gen with considerable confidence. Although it may be at a slight disadvantage in some areas.

But the Typhoon is the only aircraft that can allegedly hang with Raptors above everyone else
It also has a significantly higher service ceiling of over 60,000ft which allows it to operate uniquely well alongside the US F-22 Raptors ‘high and fast’ in the air superiority role which is exactly where it was designed to excel.

https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon- ... inal-word/

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 09:04
by Corsair1963
High and Fast is overrated.......

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 18:11
by geforcerfx
Corsair1963 wrote:High and Fast is overrated.......

Other than the large benefits it offers in BVR, sure

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 21:44
by XanderCrews
No buck, no Buck Rogers.


Not gonna happen

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 22:54
by marsavian
The UK will make it happen for industrial/technology reasons alone so the politicians will make the investment and the announcement went well in the UK Parliament with all parties expressing approval as they can see the job dividend from it. Initially it will be a stealthy aircraft with Typhoon innards to save time but one interesting detail is they plan to eventually have directed energy weapons which would be a first. Without waiting for the French/Germans/Italians/Spaniards to all agree by committee development could actually be quite rapid by Eurofighter standards.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brit ... r-strategy
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... the-future
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... challenges

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 00:53
by XanderCrews
marsavian wrote:The UK will make it happen for industrial/technology reasons alone so the politicians will make the investment and the announcement went well in the UK Parliament with all parties expressing approval as they can see the job dividend from it. Initially it will be a stealthy aircraft with Typhoon innards to save time but one interesting detail is they plan to eventually have directed energy weapons which would be a first. Without waiting for the French/Germans/Italians/Spaniards to all agree by committee development could actually be quite rapid by Eurofighter standards.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brit ... r-strategy
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... the-future
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... challenges



The UK has proven many many times, that there is such a thing as too high a price on defense. Its the honey moon phase.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 04:09
by Corsair1963
The current UK Government can't adequately fund the Armed Forces today. So, why should we believe they could with such an ambitious 6th Generation Fighter Project??? (i.e. Tempest)

:|

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 10:59
by marsavian
I could be wrong but I think the private companies involved will build a prototype for this project like the EAP and leave the actual procurement for the government at a time of its choosing. Basically about 130+ Typhoons will have to be replaced from 2040+ and it does not currently appear that it is the UK's wish to do this with F-35A. By that time all the current 138 F-35B proposed order should have been filled so there will be money available then for the Typhoon replacement.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 18:17
by mixelflick
Long, long way to go for this tempest thing. Futuristic shape, but we've seen it before..

As for the Mirage 4000, I always liked that one. No idea how much more capable it was vs. the 2000, but looked the part. Looking at its demo though it appears sluggish, vs. the recent F-35 RIAT demo. Whoa.

Impressive :)

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 21:56
by madrat
I'm thinking if Mirage 4000 looked like Rafale it might have inspired sales.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 12:14
by mixelflick
madrat wrote:I'm thinking if Mirage 4000 looked like Rafale it might have inspired sales.


How so?

Rafale strikes me as much smaller, and it's not really fair to compare avionics giving the Mirage 4000 was 25 years ago. IMO, the 4000 looked very capable, although flying with 6 IR missiles made me wonder about its BVR capabilities. It looked big, with excellent range and lots of room for growth in that nose. Give her a big radar, BVR missiles and powerful motors and it had potential IMO. I'd imagine Saudi Arabia, perhaps even Israel and others (Australia) would have given it a serious look.

End of the day though it would have to represent around a 25% improvement in combat capability vs. the Mirage 2000, while only being marginally more expensive. Perhaps that's where they fell down on the matter...?

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 10:47
by zero-one
I love the Raptor but one of the few things I don't like about it is the fact that it is so darn hard to upgrade. It's as if the F-15 and F-16 are more up-gradable than the F-22, Why is that?

Sometimes I think its a victim of it's own prowess, its so good that you can afford to keep it as plain as it was in 2009 and it would beat fighters in 2030, it made the Aim-9M a real threat and the gun a real option again.

But It looks like the Brits will take a page off from that learning curve and make the Tempest with modular MCC, maybe even sensor packages. I wonder if even the airframe will be modular. One can carry more weapons internally, one has nore fuel, one can perform better etc.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 19:14
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:I love the Raptor but one of the few things I don't like about it is the fact that it is so darn hard to upgrade. It's as if the F-15 and F-16 are more up-gradable than the F-22, Why is that?


Software

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 07:49
by zero-one
lrrpf52 wrote:That's a new one on me.

I understand the opposite to be true due to open architecture designed into the aircraft from the start.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... cant-19420

While the Raptor is the most advanced operational warplane in the Air Force’s inventory, its computer architecture dates back to the early 1990s. The core processors run at 25MHz–since it took so long to get the jet from the design phase to production. Moreover, the Raptor’s software is particularly obtuse and difficult to upgrade–which is partly why integrating the AIM-9X and AIM-120D missiles onto the aircraft has been so problematic. The jet’s avionics would have to be completely revamped for a production restart, not just because they’re obsolete, but also because the jet’s antique processors and other components haven’t been made in decades.


This is difficult to understand for me, they upgraded F-15s with new avionics, computer boxes and all the wiz bang tech hardware, but why is it so hard for the Raptor.

will it cost them billions to create new computer boxes for the Raptor derived from the F-35's.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 15:49
by SpudmanWP
That would require them rewriting and re-certifying a vast majority of the software that runs the F-22. Then, you would need to re-certify all of the new hardware throughout the F-22's envelope. That is a lot of flight testing and money.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 16:38
by zero-one
SpudmanWP wrote:That would require them rewriting and re-certifying a vast majority of the software that runs the F-22. Then, you would need to re-certify all of the new hardware throughout the F-22's envelope. That is a lot of flight testing and money.


For $1.4B they're doing that for the F-16V.
The sensors, avionics and computer hardware that runs on that bird is in the same league as the F-35.
they're smaller and less powerful but the same generation.
You could argue that its 4th gen platform with 5th gen avionics and sensors.

They also did it for the F-15SA,QA,SG and others

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 17:26
by SpudmanWP
Not really. For the F-16V, F-15E+, etc there has been a long line of upgrades that came in earlier batches. That, and they do not depend on a tightly controlled & fused core processor like the F-22 does. On top of all of that, the economies of scale are higher with 4th gen updates.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 21:55
by marsavian
For its 2025-2030 MLU reports say F-22 will get a thorough computer/sensor/network overhaul with probably bringing all 187 jets up to the same standard. I expect at least an upgrade to EODAS type functionality on the IR side even if ultimately there is no space for EOTS functionality.

Re: The UK reveals F22 knock off

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 22:18
by SpudmanWP
Space is not a problem as LM said years ago that the current sensors are capable of doing it. Throw in 25+ years of miniaturization (see gains in latest EODASv2 spec) and it's a no brainier.

While the MLU might get an avionics "overhaul", I don't think it will be a complete swap for new gear. I think they'll get new ICP cards, radar modules, HMD, etc... But I don't think it will be a rewire job (apart from getting older F-22s up to current std).