The UK reveals F22 knock off

aquietguy · by **aquietguy** » 16 Jul 2018, 16:47

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-44848294

Should be interesting.

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 16 Jul 2018, 17:08

It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?

zero-one · by **zero-one** » 16 Jul 2018, 17:34

There seems to be a trend.
The US pioneers something, Russians build a counter, Europeans build it better, Americans pioneer again and the cycle restarts

1.4th gen = F-15 -> Su-27 -> Typhoon/Rafale
2. 5th gen = F-22 -> Su-57 -> Tempest
3. 6th gen -> PCA > ? > ?

talkitron · by **talkitron** » 16 Jul 2018, 22:08

Leonardo is an Italian company but the division working on the Tempest project is likely entirely based in the UK. The history of avionics for the Typhoon is confusing because of mergers and acquisitions. For example, Leonardo bought the UK company that had 60% of the share in the Pratorian DASS (defensive aid subsystem) and it is likely this UK-based group that is involved in Tempest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_DASS
http://www.uk.leonardocompany.com
http://www.uk.leonardocompany.com/uk-ac ... ce-systems

I don't see this as any different than BAE Systems producing the Bradley and AMPV for the US Army at US factories. The role of the BAE Systems's UK headquarters in these US Army projects is likely just to count the profits.

Having said that, Leonardo the Italian company might provide some domestic support for Italy's government to join the Tempest project.

tailgate · by **tailgate** » 16 Jul 2018, 22:59

While I love and admire the allies we have, we are so far ahead of anybody right now it’s silly. I’ve heard talk of 6th gen in the work up stages, I’ve heard from good friends that 7th gen is on the doorstep. A few of my retired aviator friends have told me we are already playing with concepts for the 40-50 timeframe. It amazes me sometimes the forward advancements we are making. Just my thoughts

aquietguy · by **aquietguy** » 16 Jul 2018, 23:44

SpudmanWP wrote:It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?

So it looks absolutely nothing like a Raptor?

talkitron · by **talkitron** » 16 Jul 2018, 23:57

tailgate wrote:While I love and admire the allies we have, we are so far ahead of anybody right now it’s silly. I’ve heard talk of 6th gen in the work up stages, I’ve heard from good friends that 7th gen is on the doorstep. A few of my retired aviator friends have told me we are already playing with concepts for the 40-50 timeframe. It amazes me sometimes the forward advancements we are making. Just my thoughts

Well I am not sure what the distinction is between 6th and 7th gen, it is great we the US are doing lots of R&D. I suspect China has all sorts of high stuff for 2040 planned as well. China is building for the long term and export considerations are minor.

I do agree these European fighter projects are not shaping up to provide much pure warfighting advantage over a F-35 of 2040. The Tempest may indeed more modular and upgradeable than the F-35 and that might appeal to some program partners or export customers. The BAE sheet says the Tempest has "balanced survivability", so I expect it will have closer to Typhoon style performance in the air, including high altitudes.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 17 Jul 2018, 01:34

It's just an early concept at this stage........

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 17 Jul 2018, 02:28

aquietguy wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:It's nothing like an F-22 so why call it a "knock off"?

So it looks absolutely nothing like a Raptor?

Wings, check
Two engines, Check
Cockpit, check

Everything else, nope

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 17 Jul 2018, 04:14

The UK is just testing the waters. Likely to see who maybe interested in a joint future 6th Generation Fighter.

talkitron · by **talkitron** » 17 Jul 2018, 04:16

Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........

Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP

f4u7_corsair · by **f4u7_corsair** » 17 Jul 2018, 09:21

zero-one wrote:There seems to be a trend.
The US pioneers something, Russians build a counter, Europeans build it better, Americans pioneer again and the cycle restarts

1.4th gen = F-15 -> Su-27 -> Typhoon/Rafale
2. 5th gen = F-22 -> Su-57 -> Tempest
3. 6th gen -> PCA > ? > ?

You're being delusional if you think Typhoon/Rafale are just European answers (albeit better) to Flanker and Eagle. It's not like Mirage 2000 or Tornado were around...

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 17 Jul 2018, 10:00

talkitron wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........

Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP

Such concepts appear all of the time. Yet, most never reach maturity. Also, the UK is well underfunded at the moment. So, how will they find the funding for such an ambitious and expensive project???

Also, the Tempest looks much more like a 5th Generation Fighter than a future 6th Generation one??? So, I have a hard time believing the UK would make the same mistake over again. As it did with the Typhoon. (as did France with the Rafale) :shock:

f4u7_corsair · by **f4u7_corsair** » 17 Jul 2018, 10:28

6th generation concept likely includes optionally manned operations, and close intrication with UCAV systems. French-led SCAF and British Tempest both feature these concepts, while JSF doesn't.

Also, what exactly were the mistakes on Rafale programme (and Typhoon, while you're at it)?

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 17 Jul 2018, 12:58

talkitron wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:It's just an early concept at this stage........

Sure, but the 1982 air show mock-up called the Agile Combat Aircraft was a pretty good forecast of the current Typhoon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP

On the other hand, none of the released notional ATF artwork remotely resembled either the YF-22 or YF-23.