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Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 15:00
by tailgate
zero-one wrote:
vilters wrote:AWACS.
What are the AWACS doing in this stealth to stealth battle?

Aren't they supposed to "broadcast" the SA to their fighters who are in "listen" only mode?

If stealth to stealth is gonna be pure fighter to fighter? We are gonna have some fine pancakes and it's back to WW1. :D

If the AWACS is blind?
Might as well cut them up and sell for the cost of the aluminium. :D


I don't think AWACS will help very much to be honest, in the traditional sense. Because In every RF excercise 5th gens were able to operate with relative impunity. I'd be surprised if they simply didn't do excercises against AWACS.

They were very difficult to detect and often came and gone as they pleased, but imagine if they went up against each other, its not hard to imagine an F-35 suddenly being surprised to see a Raptor so close and vise versa.

F-16s were able to get close and kill F-35s a few times so why not the F-22.

I'm not saying it will be WW2 all over again, there will still be BVR, but I'd certainly be surprised if the BVR ratio accounted for 50% or more of the kills. I just can't see competent F-22 and F-35 pilots being detected and killed from beyond visual range despite the stealth and overwhelming ammount of S.A. they have, those things will bombard you with all sorts of warnings once you try to paint paint them.



Not correct, AWACS used 5th gen aircraft as gateways. This in essence increases their capability and lessens their need to be close to the battle space lessening their risk...

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 15:21
by zero-one
tailgate wrote:
Not correct, AWACS used 5th gen aircraft as gateways. This in essence increases their capability and lessens their need to be close to the battle space lessening their risk...


I see, so basically the AWACS uses 5th gens as additional sensor nodes to create a larger battlespace picture. But does this make stealth less effective inside the battlespace?

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 16:44
by mixelflick
I've seen some great hypothesis/theories here, but still feel the F-22 holds some systems advantage over the F-35.

No, I don't know what that is. But I'm convinced it's more than just raw performance that makes it far superior (in air to air anyway). Gen. Hostage's comments about it taking 8 F-35's to do what just 1 Raptor can do only strengthen my assertion.

Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. It would seem ridiculous for the US to not "plan for the worst" as it were. Meaning some F-35 export nation pulls an Iran on us, and all of a sudden they have an air to air machine capable of downing the F-22. The fact we're talking about the F-35 putting up a real fight vs. the Raptor is something in and of itself. Speaks well to how it'll do when confronted by the SU-35/SU-57/J-20...

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 16:54
by SpudmanWP
nutshell wrote:Even at 250 per piece' F22 would've been a much better choice than, say 4*100 A (making the A completely pointless for the Us).


Nope, since this was a very scripted scenario to get to the 8:2 ratio. Then there is the issue of no 2k munitions, No IRST, shorter ranged, harder to update, no HMDS, etc that count against the F-22 but were not factored into this equation.

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 18:00
by marsavian
mixelflick wrote:I've seen some great hypothesis/theories here, but still feel the F-22 holds some systems advantage over the F-35.

No, I don't know what that is. But I'm convinced it's more than just raw performance that makes it far superior (in air to air anyway). Gen. Hostage's comments about it taking 8 F-35's to do what just 1 Raptor can do only strengthen my assertion.

Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. It would seem ridiculous for the US to not "plan for the worst" as it were. Meaning some F-35 export nation pulls an Iran on us, and all of a sudden they have an air to air machine capable of downing the F-22. The fact we're talking about the F-35 putting up a real fight vs. the Raptor is something in and of itself. Speaks well to how it'll do when confronted by the SU-35/SU-57/J-20...


The advantage that the US has is that it knows exactly how the radar on APG-81 works as well as its other avionics. It would not be too difficult I suspect to reprogram the F-22 avionics to jam it more precisely. Something similar was done after Iran went rogue.

soon after the Shah’s demise, its Naval Test
Center at Point Mugu, California, was assigned a series of top-priority tasks. It was instructed to develop
electronic countermeasures aimed at defeating the AIM-54A systems sold to Iran, and to ensure that US AIM-54s would be invulnerable to Iranian electronic countermeasures. The test center was also told to modify the F-14’s ICWD radar warning devices to detect emissions from Iranian AWG-9 radars at extreme range.

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 23:58
by popcorn
Sure, they'll use the secret ALIS backdoor to mess them up... :devil:

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 00:38
by count_to_10
wrightwing wrote:If the launch aircraft can detect the target, it can guide the missile to impact via 2 way datalink.

I got the impression that the data link wasn’t sufficient to achieve an intercept alone. If data link direction of the missile can’t get it close enough for the missile radar to pick up the target, that would be a problem.

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 01:59
by marsavian
Indeed, but as a last resort the aircraft could steer it on a collision course if the missile is being jammed very successfully. With a two way datalink like on AIM-120D the guiding aircraft will know if the missile seeker has the designated target acquired and act accordingly. The AIM-120D will keep the aamram relevant in today's electronic climate even if it ends up being used like a Sparrow ;).

Re: The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2018, 11:26
by zero-one
to me the advantages of the F-35 over the Raptor are mostly in gathering S.A. specifically in gathering info from targets on the ground because in the air, I don't think there is any airborne target that can hide from the APG-77 & AN\ALR-94 combo that the Raptor has.

So in an air to air mission, the S.A. advantages of the F-35 are not as pronounced as in an air-ground mission. The F-22 may even have a few legs up as it has a bigger AESA to work with.

And I can't over emphasize the benefits of gathering all that data from the sanctuary of 60,000 feet and possibly at Mach 1.8. The Raptor's use in Syria to gather intelligence and provide S.A. to ground commanders giving them vital info on ground targets is just a testament to the Raptor's S.A. gathering abilities.

And it will just get better as more F-35 technology and upgrades are integrated in. It might be more difficult and expensive, but the F-22's ability to literally stay above everything else and be anywhere in the battlefield in mere moments is something that F-35 may never have.