The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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botsing

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 20:28

mixelflick wrote:Well, my reasoning is this: If they're ever head to head the Raptor's avionics not having export guards isn't cutting it. There must be some fundamental technology it has that makes it tougher to beat,\

How can you be so absolutely sure? Why isn't it "cutting it"? What is this fundamental technology you are talking about?

Either come with a well defined hypothesis or come with undeniable facts. Don't get my wrong here but you are currently sounding like a fanboy and I rather like you when you are rational.
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rheonomic

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 02:44

Like others have already said, the Raptor's avionics architecture was not designed for export. F-35 can be safely exported while protecting the secret sauce.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 03:43

This topic is interesting. If the f-22 does have a "secret sauce", then that means the US had that technology, whatever it is, well before the f-35 came around. If the f-35 does not have it, then this means: 1, secret sauce was not put in f-35 due to worries about reverse-engineering, or 2, it was too expensive to put in the f-35.

I assume the reverse-engineering argument applies to avionics and software only. Can someone explain how it could feasibly be applied to the hardware?
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 05:06

Secret Sauce is in the F-35, but it's installed behind multiple layers of protection (anti-tampering, self-destructing chips, etc).

Think Mission Impossible "should you decide to accept" on steroids :mrgreen:
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rheonomic

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 05:19

SpudmanWP wrote:Secret Sauce is in the F-35, but it's installed behind multiple layers of protection (anti-tampering, self-destructing chips, etc).

Think Mission Impossible "should you decide to accept" on steroids :mrgreen:


This. Basically a lot of crypto and black magic.

white_lightning35 wrote:I assume the reverse-engineering argument applies to avionics and software only. Can someone explain how it could feasibly be applied to the hardware?


Not much you can do to prevent that when someone else has physical control of the jet, especially now when you can take everything apart, 3d scan it, and get a CAD model of the whole thing. Materials and manufacturing processes are harder to figure out.

Anyways, for a 5th gen jet the real capability is in the mission systems software, not the airframe.
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mixelflick

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 14:55

botsing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, my reasoning is this: If they're ever head to head the Raptor's avionics not having export guards isn't cutting it. There must be some fundamental technology it has that makes it tougher to beat,\

How can you be so absolutely sure? Why isn't it "cutting it"? What is this fundamental technology you are talking about?

Either come with a well defined hypothesis or come with undeniable facts. Don't get my wrong here but you are currently sounding like a fanboy and I rather like you when you are rational.


But that's the problem, is it not? These things are classified, so it's impossible to know for sure what/if it exists. So yes, it is speculation on my part.

But it would seem logical, at least to me..
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botsing

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 16:14

mixelflick wrote:But that's the problem, is it not? These things are classified, so it's impossible to know for sure what/if it exists. So yes, it is speculation on my part.

But it would seem logical, at least to me..

Well, your logic falls into the same category as "I don't know why, thus God!".

The problem with that kind of logic is that by defining it as absolute, you stop looking for more plausible answers.

In this case we know several facts:
* The F-22 is not allowed to be exported
* The F-35 is allowed to be exported
* The F-35 is a newer model than the F-22
* The F-35 incorporates anti-tamper technology
* They are looking to retrofit several of the technologies of the F-35 into the F-22

With these facts we can make the following logical conclusions:
* The F-35 has several more advanced technologies than the F-22 (since they want to retrofit these to the F-22)
* The F-35 is allowed to be exported with these more advanced technologies
* The anti-tamper technology in the F-35 is robust enough to allow it to be exported with these more advanced technologies


So lets take two competing hypotheses as to why the F-22 is not allowed to be exported while the F-35 is:

Hypothesis 1: The F-22 is not allowed to be exported since it does not have anti-tamper technology.

Reasoning for this hypothesis:
a. The F-35 has several more advanced technologies than the F-22
b. The F-35 has anti-tamper technology
c. The F-35 is allowed to be exported

or

Hypothesis 2: The F-22 is not allowed the be exported due to some unknown secret property.

Reasoning for this hypothesis:
a. We do not know all the secret properties of the F-22
b. The F-35 is allowed to be exported
c. Therefor the F-35 does not have the unknown secret properties of the F-22 (circular argumentation)


Currently I see hypothesis 1 as more likely.
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zero-one

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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 17:29

When it comes to these F-22 vs F-35 questions, everyone in the know will say something along the lines of the 2 aircraft are designed to compliment one another and not to compete against each other

I guess thats the politically correct response and its probably generally true anyway.

But one of the few non generic responses come from General Hostage
Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


So in retrospect, Chip says that the Speed and maneuverability is the least impressive things about the Raptor, but it may also be the only thing that sets the Raptor apart from the F-35.

They're both incredibly stealthy, they both have incredible situational awareness, Sensor Fusion is present on both, all these features are more useful for most missions than just Speed and Maneuverability which is an attribute that most fighters already have (which is why its not as impressive)

But the F-22 can gather all that info from the security of 60,000 feet and Mach 1.8, something that only the Raptor can do. it can extend the range of missiles by launching them from Mach 2+ speeds and if the game ever came to a sticks and stones fight, the Raptor definitely enjoys an advantage over anything else.

So without going into top secret flux capacitors and death rays, this is the best I can come up with.

In short, as much as I love the F-35 and as much as I think it will dominate A-A combat against any 4th gen (even a gun fight) I just don't think it is superior to the F-22 in A-A. Its better in A-G no question, but the Raptor is still king in my opinion
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 17:49

There are any number of things that can explain the 8:2 ratio like SA coverage area (combo of higher & bigger radar), response time to a detected target, etc.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 17:54

In short, as much as I love the F-35 and as much as I think it will dominate A-A combat against any 4th gen (even a gun fight) I just don't think it is superior to the F-22 in A-A. Its better in A-G no question, but the Raptor is still king in my opinion.


F-35 has the advantage of EOTS/DAS though. Maybe EOTS will get an earlier aamram track before their AESA radars do especially if they are jamming each other but then their ESMs come into play too in tracking. No doubt the F-22 can out zoom and out maneouver the F-35 but it has to get past its missiles first which will be tough with the F-35's great SA. Of course against the usual 4th gen opposition F-22s backed up by F-15s at altitude are perfect killing machines and will quickly establish air superiority. F-22 needs IRST/laser in its MLU though to make sure it can handle stealthy opponents like J-20 as easily as F-35 will. It doesn't have to be the same as F-35's just functional enough to back up the AESA against jamming stealthy opponents.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 19:40

You can't jam what you can't detect.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 20:23

Keep the thread alive, the tones will be different in 5 years tops.

Even those informed struggle to keep up with the seemingly unending growth of the f35.

It's like evolution, the overtake is bound to happen.

About the 8 F35 needed to perform the same job as the F22: no. I mean i can only take so much bsing. Intellectually almost as offensive as the j20 being relevant now.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 20:48

To be fair, it was an 8:2 ratio not 8:1.

Reading Gen Hostage's original quote and he was emphasizing the F-22's altitude & speed.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 21:19

nutshell wrote:
About the 8 F35 needed to perform the same job as the F22: no. I mean i can only take so much bsing. Intellectually almost as offensive as the j20 being relevant now.


This is from general Hostage, he probably knows more about the F-35 and F-22's capabilities then some of the pilots do.

And the F-22 is growing too, with F-35 technology being integrated into the F-22. The Apg-77(v1) uses the same TR modules as the APG-81 for example. So the Raptor will inevitably catch much of the F-35's S.A. Capabilities. But the F-35 will never be able to catch the Raptor, literally.

The Raptors ability to collect data from 60K feet and rapidly ingres, strike and egres is probably what sets it aprat.

Of the things Carlo Kopp says that I don't agree with, there a few things that I do. Sensors and Avionics are easily developed, integrated and fielded into aircraft. But performance is almost set in stone.

He's right you know. The F-15s and F-16s today are a world away from those flown in Desert Storm. AESA, LANTIRN and Sniper pods, HMCS. but their performance is still pretty much the same as they were in 1983.
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Unread post21 Feb 2018, 23:19

Ok but...4 f35 for.each Raptor? 4!? Cmon now. I'm with you,like totally with you if we talk something like raptor twice as effective as a F35. 4 is a tad too much.

Hyperboles arent something hard to come by with high officials.

About the growth, we can't deny the 2 fighters are growing at 2 vastly different speed.
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