F-22 vs PKA-FA thrust vectoring

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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element1loop

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 03:01

tailgate wrote:"... I have asked a bud of mine who is still flying 15’s what were his thoughts [facing F-35 in air combat].....he said two words to me......and I quote ‘Holy Crap’. This guys has over 5 grand in the Eagle. I trust his judgement..."


Nominating that for inclusion in the "Favorite F-35 Quotes" thread.
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 09:05

tailgate wrote:I think it does not have the high end performance of the 22, it doesn’t have too. Like it’s big brother, you can’t see it, can’t put weapons on it and it’s performance is outstanding


This is amazing coming from a Raptor pilot. I remember once having a lengthy discussion around here regarding the claim of a Brit exchange pilot saying that his 9Xs could not lock on the Raptor.

Without JHMCS or HMIT, the F-22 has already shown it can fare just fine. In an engagement eight years ago, two F-22s were to take off and engage eight F-15Cs from the 65 AGRS, all equipped with AIM-9X and JHMCS. One of the Raptors ground-aborted, so the second jet took off single-ship as fragged. The engagement started beyond visual range and finished within visual range, with the Raptor killing all eight of its opponents before any were able to even get a shot off.

“I can’t see the [expletive deleted] thing,” said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron at the time. “It won’t let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me.”


https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/

The site is credible to me and I believed it. but some people couldn't and claimed that this story is false and that there is no way an Raptor could survive a 9X equipped fighter at WVR.

I disagree, I think supermaneuverability combined with Stealth has its place.

Can you confirm or shed some light on this story Tailgate? Please and thank you :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 14:37

Well, I remember reading that years ago, and it was 1 raptor vs 8 F-16Cs (not F-15C).

I still remember USAF wanted to test how F-22 perform in dogfight against multiple enemies. A raptor (without JHMSC) went against three 4th.Gen (with JHMSC) in WVR, and raptor won. Anyone can find that article?
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 15:01

Greets Zero.......yep, the 9x is pretty lethal. Coupled with HOBS, HHOBS, LOAL, it definitely is nothing to be messed with. There are some others out there too that can bring the same capabilities.

It was the one thing “ we “ always heard.....” can’t “ bring weapons to bear. It’s one thing to know what you have, how to use it, and know it’s caps......but sucks when none of it works.....the 22 will frustrate even the best.

One of my all time favs......SH driver out of Oceana on a 2vs 6 DACT out over the water........IIRC, deck was 15, scattered 8 to 15 with 10 mile vis.........challenging......” 3 of us dead, what the hell was that?, got 2 an 5 yelling defensive/evasive inbound, have no idea where the threat is. After 3, score is 0 and 12. I put eyes on you in that last engage but couldn’t get anything to lock, really f******* frustrating, thought about guns, finally decided to flip you off”. We all had a good laugh and racked it up to good training.

In the 22, I “ manage “ the fight. I pick when, where, and how to engage.

One guy out of Oceana summed up a DACT training by asking if anyone remember the movie “ Star Trek, Wrath of Kahn, when the Klingon Captain asked Kirk.....I can see you Kirk, can you see me”.....lol. I’m surprised I remember that.....lol. Good times with fellow aviators....
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 15:13

zero-one wrote:
tailgate wrote:I think it does not have the high end performance of the 22, it doesn’t have too. Like it’s big brother, you can’t see it, can’t put weapons on it and it’s performance is outstanding


This is amazing coming from a Raptor pilot. I remember once having a lengthy discussion around here regarding the claim of a Brit exchange pilot saying that his 9Xs could not lock on the Raptor.

Without JHMCS or HMIT, the F-22 has already shown it can fare just fine. In an engagement eight years ago, two F-22s were to take off and engage eight F-15Cs from the 65 AGRS, all equipped with AIM-9X and JHMCS. One of the Raptors ground-aborted, so the second jet took off single-ship as fragged. The engagement started beyond visual range and finished within visual range, with the Raptor killing all eight of its opponents before any were able to even get a shot off.

“I can’t see the [expletive deleted] thing,” said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron at the time. “It won’t let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me.”[/quote

Yep, lead GA due to ECS, wing fragged and bagged all of em, even got two in wvr. They were humbled and frustrated......lol


Yep, lead ground aborted due to ECS, his wing fragged and bagged all of them, two of them wvr......they were very humbled and frustrated. Lol
https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/

The site is credible to me and I believed it. but some people couldn't and claimed that this story is false and that there is no way an Raptor could survive a 9X equipped fighter at WVR.

I disagree, I think supermaneuverability combined with Stealth has its place.

Can you confirm or shed some light on this story Tailgate? Please and thank you :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 22:32

Scorpion1alpha wrote:
I’m a realist so I call it like it is. This isn’t about the Lightning, but I’ll say this: It promised so many things. It’ll be very good in some and live up to the requirements on others and I expect it to be a worthy replacement for the F-16 and F-18s…eventually, whenever that day will be. But saving money (as a program goal), no it did not.



I would say that the jury is still out on that. If the F-35 lives up to the hype. Starts replacing other types that weren't envisioned or created less need for new types ( that would also result in big delays and costs overruns) And over time it could well be a money saver with simplified logistics. etc. It might be a very high cost up front that saves big in the long run, which would be a wonderful change from the "make it in a day, sell it in a night, fix it for the next 50 years" shoddiness we were seeing from some contractors.

That the JSF program has had huge problems from a program standpoint I don't deny that. But considering its far from the only program that's happened to, especially the last 20 years, I would say it gets beat up on unfairly.

The F-22 was a single role fighter for one service in one country = overbudget and expensive

The F-35 multi role fighter for multiple services in multiple countries = overbudget and expensive.

At one point we might start to realize the procurement system is the root cause, and that the individual programs are the symptoms rather than the disease.

Dont ban me bro.
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rheonomic

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 01:27

XanderCrews wrote:At one point we might start to realize the procurement system is the root cause, and that the individual programs are the symptoms rather than the disease.


*cough* dfars *cough*
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 01:50

Xander makes a great point. I don't think there are ANY advanced fighter aircraft projects that ended up on time and budget in the last 20+ years.

-The Eurofighter was years delayed and over budget. 623 built and there are some upcoming orders from Middle Eastern countries. This is probably the most successful recent project.
-The Rafale was years delayed and over budget. Despite entering service in 2001, fewer than 180 have been built so far and a few small export orders have been placed.
-The F-22 is a capable aircraft but it has been capped at fewer than 200 due to cost/budgetary issues. They had originally hoped for somewhere around 600.
-There are currently 6 flyable Su-57 prototypes built, the new engines are years away from entering service and there are concerns about costs spiraling out of control from the Indians, who are bankrolling part of the project.
-J-20 and J-31: To be honest, I haven't been following these programs very closely but there have been only a few prototypes built. The Chinese recently decided to buy Su-35s, which is interesting.
-LCA Tejas: they started this in the 80s and they are still working on this one. It has entered limited service but it's got major technical problems and deficiencies that are still being addressed.
-KFX/TFX/HAL AMCA/Mitsubishi X-2: it's unclear whether these are real aircraft or just vaporware. They range from being models and drawings on paper to early-stage prototypes. Either way, a long way from entering service...let along being successful.
-Gripen: they have built fewer than 300. But when the NG/E comes along, it will be a world beating 6th generation F-35 killer :roll:

If the Navy went about developing a separate carrier-capable jet to replace the F-18, would they have avoided the ugly politics and cost overruns that tend to be a feature of these grand undertakings? What would the Marines be flying right now if they pursued a separate design to replace the Harrier?

For all its flaws, the F-35 project does seem to have costs under control at this point. Production is ramping up and --barring a major catastrophe-- it will be deployed in very large numbers....certainly larger numbers than anything currently in the works. So while the jury is still out...the odds are looking pretty good right now.

Just take a look at Lockheed Martin's stock price since 2013....
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 02:18

XanderCrews wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:
I’m a realist so I call it like it is. This isn’t about the Lightning, but I’ll say this: It promised so many things. It’ll be very good in some and live up to the requirements on others and I expect it to be a worthy replacement for the F-16 and F-18s…eventually, whenever that day will be. But saving money (as a program goal), no it did not.



I would say that the jury is still out on that. If the F-35 lives up to the hype. Starts replacing other types that weren't envisioned or created less need for new types ( that would also result in big delays and costs overruns) And over time it could well be a money saver with simplified logistics. etc. It might be a very high cost up front that saves big in the long run, which would be a wonderful change from the "make it in a day, sell it in a night, fix it for the next 50 years" shoddiness we were seeing from some contractors.

That the JSF program has had huge problems from a program standpoint I don't deny that. But considering its far from the only program that's happened to, especially the last 20 years, I would say it gets beat up on unfairly.

The F-22 was a single role fighter for one service in one country = overbudget and expensive

The F-35 multi role fighter for multiple services in multiple countries = overbudget and expensive.

At one point we might start to realize the procurement system is the root cause, and that the individual programs are the symptoms rather than the disease.


Good points and well stated.

XanderCrews wrote:Dont ban me bro.


LOL!
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 08:25

tailgate wrote:One guy out of Oceana summed up a DACT training by asking if anyone remember the movie “ Star Trek, Wrath of Kahn, when the Klingon Captain asked Kirk.....I can see you Kirk, can you see me”.....lol. I’m surprised I remember that.....lol. Good times with fellow aviators....


Thanks for all that Tailgate. that was pretty impressive. In the 22, do you still need to be good at ACM? cause they can't lock on you, not even with a 9x, they can't see you and you pick and choose when and where to engage. To me its like an airline pilot can just hop in and fly CAP as soon as he learns the basics of how to fly the thing.

This is also in line with Chip's comments on why Speed and Maneuverability were the least impressive things about the Raptor. Do you agree with this? Did you even need the Raptor's kinematics at any point? Or is it a luxury thats nice to have but don't need.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 14:37

Don't confuse can't and won't here, it was hard but not impossible. And yes, we trained constantly for ACM. Any aviator here will tell you that you know your bird. Know what it can and can't do. We always teach the basics.

I grew up in the Eagle as a student of the "guns kill". So as an 'IP" later in the years I always emphasized ACM. It's just good sense.

As far as the Raptor was concerned, it is an air superiority machine. Would i prefer BVR, yes, but would not hesitate to "mix it up"
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 15:21

tailgate wrote:As far as the Raptor was concerned, it is an air superiority machine. Would i prefer BVR, yes, but would not hesitate to "mix it up"


Awesome stuff tailgate, there were a lot of times where folks (both here and elsewhere) told me that Raptors would prefer a full mission abort and fight another day if they can't achieve the kill BVR rather than risk a WVR fight where most of the advantages are gone.

It seems to me that this is opposite of what Col. Max Moga said in his interview on the final episode of Dogfights, he basically said the same thing you did. If the situation called for a merge, he will not hesitate to commit to the merge. This was sadly dismissed as nothing more than "made for T.V. drama" by some.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 15:32

tailgate wrote:One guy out of Oceana summed up a DACT training by asking if anyone remember the movie “ Star Trek, Wrath of Kahn, when the Klingon Captain asked Kirk.....I can see you Kirk, can you see me”.....lol. I’m surprised I remember that.....lol. Good times with fellow aviators....

[nerd]Just an FYI, that was Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, not Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Also, the Klingon was "General" Chang.[/nerd]

But yeah, it totally fits.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 18:02

Thanks Play.....not a big Star Trek guy myself but I did remember that ( or parts....... :wink: ). His name was Cmdr Nick Koles, and we were good friends thru the years. He really believed and was instrumental in making sure his aviators got all the training hey desired
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 18:09

playloud wrote:[nerd]Just an FYI, that was Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, not Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Also, the Klingon was "General" Chang.[/nerd]

But yeah, it totally fits.

[nerd] It's been forever, is that the one with the Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked?[/nerd]
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