F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 02:33
by charlielima223
I want to try to get ahead of this...

I saw this over at TheAviationist...
https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/09/u ... od-claims/
(the comment section there will light up and will be fun to talk about in the basement dweller section :D )

According to Russian "news" outlets, last month there was an encounter between an Su-35 and F-22 over Syria. The "news" outlets who have been making the most noise over this is Sputnik and RT. Both outlets have the reputation of taking an actual event and conflating it with false narratives. One such example was the encounter between the USS Donald Cook and a Russian Su-24. RT and especially Sputnik took that event and put in a false narrative that the Su-24 was able to jam the radar of the USS Donald Cook and even shut down its systems.

This time they're are claiming that an F-22 was interfering with an operation involving a Su-24s and then Su-35s were scrambled.

https://www.rt.com/news/412590-russia-u ... air-force/

https://sputniknews.com/military/201712 ... rmy-syria/

http://tass.com/world/980056

According to them the presence of the Su-35's "scared away" the F-22 or that they "shooed them away".

So far no Western news agency (credible ones at least) have been able to confirm this. I've read how F-22's are usually closer to Russian and Syrian units due to their stealth and that they are instrumental in deconfliction. There was an event where Syrian Su-24s were dangerously close to coalition units and that F-22's followed the Su-24s until they left the airspace. With the fall of Raqqa and the last major Daesh stronghold falling to Syrian and Russian forces, what was the F-22 pilot trying to do if this indeed happened? Was the Su-24 close to FSA (Free Syrian Army) with embedded US and NATO Special Operations personnel and that the F-22 was attempting to get the Su-24 to disengage?

Would like to read your opinions on this.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 02:58
by madrat
So what if the Su-35S saw the F-22A. It was the other it didn't see that nobody cares to brag about. Just because someone occasionally sees a ghost doesn't imply it can be followed or captured.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 03:21
by popcorn
If true the F-22 prudently left the area to avoid a collision with a Russian jet oblivious to it's location. :mrgreen:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 03:41
by sferrin
Most likely it achieved it's aim (the Su-25s didn't bomb their targets) and left. Why give an Su-35, with the latest Russia radar, an up-close look at an F-22 without RCS enhancement on it?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:27
by charlielima223
I'm GUESSING what happened was that the Su-25s were operating close to forces backed by U.S. lead coalition. F-22s were in the area and the only ones that could respond in a timely manner. Deconfliction was called but for what ever reason Su-25s do not receive. F-22 made it presence known in an attempt to get the Su-25s to disengage. Su-25s bugged out but not be for calling for help. Su-35 was on its way with the F-22 already on its way out.
Most likely another F-22 was in the area unseen and using its sensors to "watch" the whole thing.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:58
by Corsair1963
Why would anybody really waste their time refuting RT and/or Sputnik??? :doh:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 05:17
by durahawk
charlielima223 wrote:I'm GUESSING what happened was that the Su-25s were operating close to forces backed by U.S. lead coalition. F-22s were in the area and the only ones that could respond in a timely manner. Deconfliction was called but for what ever reason Su-25s do not receive. F-22 made it presence known in an attempt to get the Su-25s to disengage. Su-25s bugged out but not be for calling for help. Su-35 was on its way with the F-22 already on its way out.
Most likely another F-22 was in the area unseen and using its sensors to "watch" the whole thing.


Also very likely the Russians weren't bombing ISIS at all, but one of the plethora of other anti-isis/anti-Assad forces operating in the region. The Russians often use ISIS as a cover for bombing whomever the hell they want. It's also plausible between Russian intelligence and accuracy, they didn't know who they were bombing either.

In any case, the Raptors got WVR with the Frogfoots for a reason... to make their presence known. I agree the strength of the response suggests that embedded US advisors were in the vicinity on the ground.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 06:05
by rheonomic
Is there a non Pravda source on this?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 09:29
by hythelday
Typical BS from the usual suspects.

CJTF-OIR already refuted these allegations, seen their reply to someone's inquiry.

Such publications fit their agenda very well:

1) Su-35S/GCI/A-50 can detect F-22s
2) overhyped F-22 are afraid of Flankers
3) Evil kapitalists try to stop Russia from defeating ISIS

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 09:38
by ricardonb
F-22 arrived at Su-25 before the Su-35S? Should the Su-35S not follow the Su-25s? Did not see the F-22 arrive?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 13:35
by mixelflick
This is the 2nd known interaction between the F-22 and SU-35.

Is making for some interesting theatre. What's more likely happening but not being reported is that F-22's are following SU-35's without them being aware of the Raptor's presence. Both sides are trying to get data on the other's machines, but at the end of the day the SU-35 is hopelessly out-classed. We shouldn't under-estimate it, but over-estimating it is perilous too.

Damn good thing we built it, because F-15's in the same scenario would have all they could handle with an SU-35. Our pilots deserve better..

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 17:54
by durahawk
mixelflick wrote: Damn good thing we built it, because F-15's in the same scenario would have all they could handle with an SU-35. Our pilots deserve better..


Actually it was mentioned by the article posted in the "Russian Fighters Test U.S. Boundaries In Skies Over Syria" thread F-15E's are pulling DCA on the regular in Syria... and have some advantages over the Raptor in doing so. The Sniper ATP aids in visually identifying threats at safer distances where the Raptor, which lacks an EOTS capability, has to get much closer in order to PID threats. Additionally, the F-15E is able to push that imagery and other sensor data to other players over Link-16 which helps to paint a better picture of the battle-space vs. the "selfish" Raptor that doesn't have Link-16 out capability.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 18:06
by juretrn
durahawk wrote:Actually it was mentioned by the article posted in the "Russian Fighters Test U.S. Boundaries In Skies Over Syria" thread F-15E's are pulling DCA on the regular in Syria... and have some advantages over the Raptor in doing so. The Sniper ATP aids in visually identifying threats at safer distances where the Raptor, which lacks an EOTS capability, has to get much closer in order to PID threats. Additionally, the F-15E is able to push that imagery and other sensor data to other players over Link-16 which helps to paint a better picture of the battle-space vs. the "selfish" Raptor that doesn't have Link-16 out capability.

F-15s are seriously under-rated. The C has T/W that makes any Sukhoi blush, more modern radars, great IR, AIM-120D and -9X, and very soon EPAWSS that would make Khibiny pods look like a silly toy.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 06:01
by lamashtu
As the old saying goes: "If it ain't on tape, it ain't!"

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 21:53
by charlielima223
Out of morbid curiosity I went to the comment section of theaviationist webpage linked earlier...

:shock: :doh:

the comments made there are worse than the one's at BF4C

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 19:38
by mas
Happened again ...

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/14/polit ... index.html

Two US F-22 stealth fighters intercepted two Russian aircraft Wednesday after the Russian jets crossed the Euphrates River in Syria, flying east of the "de-confliction line" that is supposed to separate Russian and US-led coalition aircraft operating over Syria, two US defense officials told CNN.

The US jets fired warning flares during the intercept of the two Russian Su-25 close air support jets according to the officials after they crossed the de-confliction line multiple times.

"The F-22s conducted multiple maneuvers to persuade the Su-25s to depart our de-conflicted airspace, including the release of chaff and flares in close proximity to the Russian aircraft and placing multiple calls on the emergency channel to convey to the Russian pilots that they needed to depart the area," he added.

Pickart accused the Russian pilots of dangerous flying during the encounter. "One Su-25 flew close enough to an F-22A that it had to aggressively maneuver to avoid a midair collision," he said, adding that "during the incident, a Russian Su-35 also flew across the river and was shadowed closely by one of the F-22As."

He said the encounter lasted approximately 40 minutes before the Russian aircraft flew to the west side of the river, saying officers from the US-led coalition contacted the Russians on the de-confliction line "to de-escalate the situation and avert a strategic miscalculation."

"In early November we verbally agreed through de-confliction channels that the Russians would remain west of the Euphrates River, and the coalition would operate to the east. Since agreeing to this de-confliction arrangement, the Russians have flown into our airspace on the east side of the river 6-8 times per day, or approximately 10% of the Russian and Syrian flights," Pickart said.

"If either of us needs to cross the river for any reason, we're supposed to first de-conflict via the line. It's become increasingly tough for our pilots to discern whether Russian pilots' actions are deliberate or if these are just honest mistakes," he added, saying, "the coalition's greatest concern is that we could shoot down a Russian aircraft because its actions are seen as a threat to our air or ground forces."

"We are not here to fight the Russians and Syrians -- our focus remains on defeating ISIS. That said, if anyone threatens coalition or friendly partner forces in the air or on the ground, we will defend them," he added.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:34
by wrightwing
Same story. Different perspective.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:45
by mas
The incident took place Wednesday
which would be 13th December.

And the Russians claim this time they were providing cover for a humanitarian convoy.

https://www.rt.com/news/413246-f-22-syria-us-russia/

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 21:58
by juretrn
mas wrote:providing cover for a humanitarian convoy

Jesus freakin Christ, those Ruskies are holier than the Pope himself, and Amerikantsi are so EVIL.
And the last time they were bombing ISIS, supposedly.
Sigh.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 06:49
by popcorn
A Frogfoot almost took out a Raptor.


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... e-going-on

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 14:41
by mixelflick
This keeps up and it's only a matter of time.

Just imagine a Frogfoot/F-22 collission and the F-22 goes down. 0 for 1 in the air to air arena. Don't laugh, it could happen. Knowing that, why on earth would F-22's put themselves in such a position? The SU-35/F-22 encounter is going to go down, it sounds like sooner vs. later.

I sure hope our pilots have a respectable ROE to work within...

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 15:27
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:A Frogfoot almost took out a Raptor.


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... e-going-on


Clickbait title. :slap:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 12:02
by mas
I didn't realize there had been an official ROE set up ;) but apparently Russian pilots are now bragging about their encounters with American jets over Syria.

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/12/2 ... -in-syria/

Russian pilots always managed to get behind US-led coalition fighter jets they encountered in the skies over Syria, a Russian ace said after receiving a state award from President Putin at the Kremlin.

“When meeting our partners from the Western coalition in the air, we always found ourselves ‘on their tails’ as the pilots say, which means victory in a dogfight,” Russian Airspace Forces major, Maksim Makolin, said.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 12:38
by hythelday
a Russian ace


Ace in what? MSF Hospitals?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 17:04
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote:
a Russian ace


Ace in what? MSF Hospitals?


LOL.. :D

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 01:56
by arian
"Veterans Today" is a wacky conspiracy site.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 05:10
by mas

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 13:56
by hythelday
Anyone remind me why are discussing obvious BS? How about we refrain from posting anything that is from "Pravda v2.0" source?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 00:56
by botsing
hythelday wrote:Anyone remind me why we are discussing obvious BS? How about we refrain from posting anything that is from a "Pravda v2.0" source?

^ This. ^

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 01:06
by charlielima223
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ve-444636/

“We have to stop thinking like the champion and start thinking like the contender,” Lt Gen Mark Nowland, who handles operations, told an audience on Capitol Hill on 4 January “Our competitors are not only imitating us, they’re improving upon what we’ve done.”
+++
Russia has gained valuable information operating in a contested airspace alongside the US over Syria and are incorporating those lessons in their strategy, says Lt Gen VeraLinn Jamieson, the USAF’s ISR chief.
+++
“Our adversaries are watching us,” she says. “The skies over Iraq and specifically Syria have really just been a treasure trove to see how we operate. We also know we’re watched when we conduct operations off various coasts and also over the Korean peninsula.”


This is nothing new. However are possible adversaries able to duplicate and counter the "secret sauce" of NATO and US Air Power?

As USAF CoS Gen Goldfein put in during a question session of CSIS forum
What's the network that we will be up against between the family of systems that we are going to bring to bear

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 10:07
by zero-one
We can't simply conclude that claims we don't agree with are blatant lies, so what if its true. Is there another explanation for what is happening.

Talking to an old F-4 pilot, he said that mock dogfights over the north sea against the Reds are not uncommon back in the cold war, pilots know that both sides won't fire, so sometimes, pilots tend to have some fun by engaging in mock battles. He says it almost never gets published, but it happens.

So what if it was true? What if these guys do manage to get behind Coalition aircraft.

Doing simplistic calculations (T/W ratio, Wing loading and accounting for parasitic drag and body lift) the Raptor should be the tightest turning fighter in Syrian airspace (or any airspace for that matter) at nearly all parts of the envelope with a combat load. Even in airshow configuration the Raptor will be pretty hard to beat.

So is that all there is? or does Flanker airframe really offer advantages in order for their pilots to get to the tail?

Training? Are Russians still so fixated with old fashioned turn and burn fights that they are simply better at fighting the old fashioned way?

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 21:13
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:We can't simply conclude that claims we don't agree with are blatant lies, so what if its true. Is there another explanation for what is happening.

Talking to an old F-4 pilot, he said that mock dogfights over the north sea against the Reds are not uncommon back in the cold war, pilots know that both sides won't fire, so sometimes, pilots tend to have some fun by engaging in mock battles. He says it almost never gets published, but it happens.

So what if it was true? What if these guys do manage to get behind Coalition aircraft.

Doing simplistic calculations (T/W ratio, Wing loading and accounting for parasitic drag and body lift) the Raptor should be the tightest turning fighter in Syrian airspace (or any airspace for that matter) at nearly all parts of the envelope with a combat load. Even in airshow configuration the Raptor will be pretty hard to beat.

So is that all there is? or does Flanker airframe really offer advantages in order for their pilots to get to the tail?

Training? Are Russians still so fixated with old fashioned turn and burn fights that they are simply better at fighting the old fashioned way?

Flankers were never on the Raptor's "6," nor did they chase them off. At no point were the Flankers not shadowed by F-22s.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 22:55
by charlielima223
Pretty sure US and NATO aircraft have ended up behind Russian aircraft as well... but you don't hear or read some ego stroking piece about it nor calling a pilot an "Ace". Last I checked I thought an "Ace" had to shoot down 5 or more enemy aircraft and have it be confirmed by other sources.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 23:45
by popcorn
Well, if the F-22 was dropping flares in front of the Russkie to dissuade him then they can accurately claim they were on the Raptor's six. :doh:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 02:35
by wrightwing
popcorn wrote:Well, if the F-22 was dropping flares in front of the Russkie to dissuade him then they can accurately claim they were on the Raptor's six. :doh:

Those were Su-25s. When the Flankers showed up, the F-22s shadowed them.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 06:42
by zero-one
I believe the number of airial victories was reduced to just 3 to qualify as an Ace as Colonel Cesar Rodriguez is formaly recognized as currently the last American Ace with 3.

That being said, when was the last time the VVS shot an aircraft ing anger? Korea? Afganistan? Im not counting that Korean air 747 as an airial victory

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 18:56
by hythelday
zero-one wrote:I believe the number of airial victories was reduced to just 3 to qualify as an Ace as Colonel Cesar Rodriguez is formaly recognized as currently the last American Ace with 3.

That being said, when was the last time the VVS shot an aircraft ing anger? Korea? Afganistan? Im not counting that Korean air 747 as an airial victory


A drone in 2008 over Georgia. Former pilots from USSR flew in Ethiopia-Eritrea conflict. Ethiopian Su-27 are credited with 1 to 3 MiG-29s with either IRAAMs or guns.

Russian sources will gladly tell you how Soviet pilots tore Israelis a new one during 67-73 wars, but that's as credible as this steaming pile of excriment from "Russian ace".

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 16:10
by mixelflick
I guess if you're the Russians, you HAVE to hold near and dear to the old fashioned dogfight.

BVRAAM's have abysmal track record, far worse than post vietnam Sparrow/AMRAAM shots. Supermaneuverability is something they're really clinging to, and refuse to do without. Of course, when you can't engineer stealth/SA on any mass scale...

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 01:18
by icemaverick
hythelday wrote:Russian sources will gladly tell you how Soviet pilots tore Israelis a new one during 67-73 wars, but that's as credible as this steaming pile of excriment from "Russian ace".


They will undoubtedly make no mention of the pasting they suffered at the hands of the Israelis during Operation Rimon 20 when they lost 5 MiG-21s vs. no losses against IAF Mirage IIIs and F-4s.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:04
by neptune
....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 09:57
by charlielima223
neptune wrote:....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)


Too true!

The F-22 has stealth along with better sensors and avionics on board. Trying to find the F-22 is like trying to hear and owl fly at night...


Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 12:11
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:I guess if you're the Russians, you HAVE to hold near and dear to the old fashioned dogfight.

BVRAAM's have abysmal track record, far worse than post vietnam Sparrow/AMRAAM shots. Supermaneuverability is something they're really clinging to, and refuse to do without. Of course, when you can't engineer stealth/SA on any mass scale...


The sad thing about this notion is that most people seem to think that the west has abandoned traditional combat methods due to over reliance on new technology.

I've see debates go around the web such as "Stealth vs Supermaneuverability" or "BVR vs WVR". And even people on the know seem to be picking a side on these senseless debates.

Thing is, when you're in a Raptor or an F-35, you don't need to pick a side, you literally have the best of both worlds. Why take a side if you can take him down both ways.

Now granted, going into a dogfight in a 5th gen seems silly, but as Raptor and F-35 pilots have said, there are scenarios when they choose to go in close or are forced to get close for some reason. When it does happen, they still come out on top. Even in Neutral Merge setups they come out on top.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 00:50
by madrat
The PVO used to bag an airliner every so often. Not sure when VVS had it's last modern kill other than maybe over Georgia.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 02:51
by wrightwing
neptune wrote:....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)

The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 08:31
by charlielima223
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 16:28
by wrightwing
charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.

It's been a treasure trove of ELINT/SIGINT/EOB intel, for our threat libraries, not to mention seeing how our systems really work against real world sensors. It's also provided us with BDA information, on various Russian A2G weapons. I can also guarantee that we've used tactics, to ensure that the intel gathering was more one-sided, to our advantage. (i.e. masking RCS, flying in passive modes, using non-LPI waveforms when appropriate, etc....)

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 18:04
by sferrin
For both sides which is why Russia sent a specialized ELINT aircraft to Syria. Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 18:39
by wrightwing
sferrin wrote:For both sides which is why Russia sent a specialized ELINT aircraft to Syria. Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.

I'm guessing that whenever those Russian birds were nearby, that certain modes weren't utilized. I'm also guessing that Raptor pilots used techniques to mask their true signatures. The Russians didn't necessarily have the same luxury, as they didn't know when F-22s were sniffing signals.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 04:37
by charlielima223
sferrin wrote: Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.


I'm sure they got a look but it wasn't a very good one :wink:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 09:13
by zero-one
When people say the F-22 and F-35 doesn't need to dogfight, the media interprets this as it is afraid to dogfight

If a fight were to start during an intercept like the one this week, the Russian pilot would start with the huge advantage of having the F-22 in sight. What’s more, the Russian Su-35 can actually maneuver better than the F-22.

Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, previously told Business Insider that when flying the F-22, “my objective wouldn’t be to get in a turning fight” with an adversary. Instead, Berke said he would use the F-22’s natural advantages of stealth to avoid the dogfight.


http://www.businessinsider.sg/f-22-su-3 ... ?r=US&IR=T

to me, the best approach is still to emphasize the fact that the Raptor and to a certain extent the F-35 dominates the phone booth fight if they choose to.

Stealth and BVR advantages are the icing on top.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 12:13
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:When people say the F-22 and F-35 doesn't need to dogfight, the media interprets this as it is afraid to dogfight

If a fight were to start during an intercept like the one this week, the Russian pilot would start with the huge advantage of having the F-22 in sight. What’s more, the Russian Su-35 can actually maneuver better than the F-22.

Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, previously told Business Insider that when flying the F-22, “my objective wouldn’t be to get in a turning fight” with an adversary. Instead, Berke said he would use the F-22’s natural advantages of stealth to avoid the dogfight.


http://www.businessinsider.sg/f-22-su-3 ... ?r=US&IR=T

to me, the best approach is still to emphasize the fact that the Raptor and to a certain extent the F-35 dominates the phone booth fight if they choose to.

Stealth and BVR advantages are the icing on top.


Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Having seen Austalian media twist such things for the past 20 years it has convinced me that intelligent, informed, objective, disinterested 'public debate' of airpower matters is impossible. Neither public or media are capable of it, and media are almost entirely not interested in dealing with intelligent discussion of anything complex, nuanced or critically important.

Except for a handfull of outstanding local specialist airpower jounos the media are incapable of understanding or reporting on it in a coherant way, and the public are convinced that their opinion is 100% valid about the F-35A, despite understanding zip about the aircraft, or the tech, or tactics, nor grasp the yawning gulf in comparitive advantage differences with old Su's which struggle not to crash at airshow displays, due to engines with metalurgical indigestion when pushed too hard for a couple of minutes.

And are we so insecure about F-22 or F-35 turning fight capabilities?

Who cares what they think? Let them talk 'stuff' about it, they're going to anyway aren't they?

Like the gen-public airpower 'debate', the reality will never shine through via media seeing the light, only an actual battle will do that, and that also is foggy, and made moreso by media BS, no matter the basic facts.

Except for ...

WHO HOLDS THE AIR IN SUCH BATTLES?

That one's a pretty consistent (actual) indicator of the truth of things.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 12:51
by basher54321
element1loop wrote:Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Having seen Austalian media twist such things for the past 20 years it has convinced me that intelligent, informed, objective, disinterested 'public debate' of airpower matters is impossible. Neither public or media are capable of it, and media are almost entirely not interested in dealing with intelligent discussion of anything complex, nuanced or critically important.

Except for a handfull of outstanding local specialist airpower jounos the media are incapable of understanding or reporting on it in a coherant way, and the public are convinced that their opinion is 100% valid about the F-35A, despite understanding zip about the aircraft, or the tech, or tactics, nor grasp the yawning gulf in comparitive advantage differences with old Su's which struggle not to crash at airshow displays, due to engines with metalurgical indigestion when pushed too hard for a couple of minutes.


:thumb:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 13:18
by zero-one
element1loop wrote:
Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Well just in my opinion, it does matter partly because today's battle space like Syria is stuffed full of nasty ROEs that the Russians take advantage of to get close.

But also because both Chip and tailgate has said that there are missions where they really need to get to WVR.

They will dictate the terms of the engagement so theres that.

but still, point is, there so much mis informed info about these 2 planes that its painful to read. Both the F-22 and F-35 were designed to be superb performance platforms. No one in the program said that kinematics should be put in the back burner cause hey, we'll never get close enough right. Nobody wanted another Vietnam lesson when the ATF or JSF was being conceptualized.

In the end, they did really well, there is no aircraft better in BFM than a Raptor and its also the aircraft least likely to be caught in a BFM scenario unwillingly. and then theres the media, saying nonsense thing like this, why? uhhhhh because the Flanker has 3D TVC. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 15:34
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.


And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 03:26
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.


And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.



What happens if some F-22's intercept the two Su-57's and their Su-35 Escorts totally undetected??? Could we expect India to leave the PAK-FA/FGFA Program the next day??? :wink:

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 07:46
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:What happens if some F-22's intercept the two Su-57's and their Su-35 Escorts totally undetected??? Could we expect India to leave the PAK-FA/FGFA Program the next day??? :wink:


That would be interesting. But unlikely, because as much as we love to hate on the Ruskies at times (myself included) their Su-57 is still better than a lot of the current flying platforms today.

Certainly better than India's current staple the Su-30MKI, I'd put it above the Typhoon and Rafale in overall capabilities as well, It would be a serious threat to any 4th generation platform and a worthy albeit disadvantaged adversary against U.S. 5th gens.

I once saw a picture here where SAAB placed the then T-50 on par with the F-35 in overall capabilities. Debatable I know, but goes to show that the Su-57 is a contender.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 11:08
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.


Expect no stealth nozzle, no radar blocker and probable no RAM.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 16:11
by Scorpion1alpha
Expect no stealth nozzle, no radar blocker and probable no RAM.


If that is the case, one wonders why even bother?

Experience in deploying? Maybe.

Sales pitch? Wouldn't convince me if I were a potential buyer.

Easier target for the F-22? Check!

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 17:10
by zero-one
Scorpion1alpha wrote:[
If that is the case, one wonders why even bother?

Experience in deploying? Maybe.

Sales pitch? Wouldn't convince me if I were a potential buyer.

Easier target for the F-22? Check!


I actually think Sales Pitch makes sense.

One of the biggest gripes against the whole PAK-FA was reliability, they were labeled maintenance hogs, hanger queens, suffering at least one airframe due to fires an engine compressor stall and massive technical challenges.

But now the Sukhoi sales rep comes in touting that their brand new spanking Su-57 is combat proven and that their confidence in the design is so high that they wasted no time sending it into combat.

Not even the American's have that level of confidence with their F-35 he says. The Su-57 displayed a mission readiness rate of 83% and just missed 1 (out of 6) flights.

Most impressively, it suffered no combat losses in the operation while providing vital S.A. to both air and Ground assets.

They can easily hype this to the stars as the only exportable 5th gen with a "proven" combat record.

Re: F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2018, 02:09
by element1loop
Not a deployment based on hard-nosed military assessment.

Remember when JSF was named F-35 (instead of F-24}, and rooskie BS dept quickly named rebuilt MLUed Flankers as Su35s?

Desperate hand-waving.

Anyone know about the Su56?