F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

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wrightwing

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 16:28

charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.

It's been a treasure trove of ELINT/SIGINT/EOB intel, for our threat libraries, not to mention seeing how our systems really work against real world sensors. It's also provided us with BDA information, on various Russian A2G weapons. I can also guarantee that we've used tactics, to ensure that the intel gathering was more one-sided, to our advantage. (i.e. masking RCS, flying in passive modes, using non-LPI waveforms when appropriate, etc....)
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sferrin

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 18:04

For both sides which is why Russia sent a specialized ELINT aircraft to Syria. Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.
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wrightwing

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 18:39

sferrin wrote:For both sides which is why Russia sent a specialized ELINT aircraft to Syria. Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.

I'm guessing that whenever those Russian birds were nearby, that certain modes weren't utilized. I'm also guessing that Raptor pilots used techniques to mask their true signatures. The Russians didn't necessarily have the same luxury, as they didn't know when F-22s were sniffing signals.
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charlielima223

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 04:37

sferrin wrote: Also both the S-400 and Su-35 got their first looks at the F-22.


I'm sure they got a look but it wasn't a very good one :wink:
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zero-one

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 09:13

When people say the F-22 and F-35 doesn't need to dogfight, the media interprets this as it is afraid to dogfight

If a fight were to start during an intercept like the one this week, the Russian pilot would start with the huge advantage of having the F-22 in sight. What’s more, the Russian Su-35 can actually maneuver better than the F-22.

Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, previously told Business Insider that when flying the F-22, “my objective wouldn’t be to get in a turning fight” with an adversary. Instead, Berke said he would use the F-22’s natural advantages of stealth to avoid the dogfight.


http://www.businessinsider.sg/f-22-su-3 ... ?r=US&IR=T

to me, the best approach is still to emphasize the fact that the Raptor and to a certain extent the F-35 dominates the phone booth fight if they choose to.

Stealth and BVR advantages are the icing on top.
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element1loop

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 12:13

zero-one wrote:When people say the F-22 and F-35 doesn't need to dogfight, the media interprets this as it is afraid to dogfight

If a fight were to start during an intercept like the one this week, the Russian pilot would start with the huge advantage of having the F-22 in sight. What’s more, the Russian Su-35 can actually maneuver better than the F-22.

Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, previously told Business Insider that when flying the F-22, “my objective wouldn’t be to get in a turning fight” with an adversary. Instead, Berke said he would use the F-22’s natural advantages of stealth to avoid the dogfight.


http://www.businessinsider.sg/f-22-su-3 ... ?r=US&IR=T

to me, the best approach is still to emphasize the fact that the Raptor and to a certain extent the F-35 dominates the phone booth fight if they choose to.

Stealth and BVR advantages are the icing on top.


Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Having seen Austalian media twist such things for the past 20 years it has convinced me that intelligent, informed, objective, disinterested 'public debate' of airpower matters is impossible. Neither public or media are capable of it, and media are almost entirely not interested in dealing with intelligent discussion of anything complex, nuanced or critically important.

Except for a handfull of outstanding local specialist airpower jounos the media are incapable of understanding or reporting on it in a coherant way, and the public are convinced that their opinion is 100% valid about the F-35A, despite understanding zip about the aircraft, or the tech, or tactics, nor grasp the yawning gulf in comparitive advantage differences with old Su's which struggle not to crash at airshow displays, due to engines with metalurgical indigestion when pushed too hard for a couple of minutes.

And are we so insecure about F-22 or F-35 turning fight capabilities?

Who cares what they think? Let them talk 'stuff' about it, they're going to anyway aren't they?

Like the gen-public airpower 'debate', the reality will never shine through via media seeing the light, only an actual battle will do that, and that also is foggy, and made moreso by media BS, no matter the basic facts.

Except for ...

WHO HOLDS THE AIR IN SUCH BATTLES?

That one's a pretty consistent (actual) indicator of the truth of things.
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basher54321

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 12:51

element1loop wrote:Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Having seen Austalian media twist such things for the past 20 years it has convinced me that intelligent, informed, objective, disinterested 'public debate' of airpower matters is impossible. Neither public or media are capable of it, and media are almost entirely not interested in dealing with intelligent discussion of anything complex, nuanced or critically important.

Except for a handfull of outstanding local specialist airpower jounos the media are incapable of understanding or reporting on it in a coherant way, and the public are convinced that their opinion is 100% valid about the F-35A, despite understanding zip about the aircraft, or the tech, or tactics, nor grasp the yawning gulf in comparitive advantage differences with old Su's which struggle not to crash at airshow displays, due to engines with metalurgical indigestion when pushed too hard for a couple of minutes.


:thumb:
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zero-one

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 13:18

element1loop wrote:
Wouldn't even bother clarifying things to media, or to Putin-can-do-no-wrong fans. If you talk about latent gun fight prowess it just makes it seem as though that matters in a fight. Why bother?

Well just in my opinion, it does matter partly because today's battle space like Syria is stuffed full of nasty ROEs that the Russians take advantage of to get close.

But also because both Chip and tailgate has said that there are missions where they really need to get to WVR.

They will dictate the terms of the engagement so theres that.

but still, point is, there so much mis informed info about these 2 planes that its painful to read. Both the F-22 and F-35 were designed to be superb performance platforms. No one in the program said that kinematics should be put in the back burner cause hey, we'll never get close enough right. Nobody wanted another Vietnam lesson when the ATF or JSF was being conceptualized.

In the end, they did really well, there is no aircraft better in BFM than a Raptor and its also the aircraft least likely to be caught in a BFM scenario unwillingly. and then theres the media, saying nonsense thing like this, why? uhhhhh because the Flanker has 3D TVC. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 15:34

charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.


And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Feb 2018, 03:26

mixelflick wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.


And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.



What happens if some F-22's intercept the two Su-57's and their Su-35 Escorts totally undetected??? Could we expect India to leave the PAK-FA/FGFA Program the next day??? :wink:
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Feb 2018, 07:46

Corsair1963 wrote:What happens if some F-22's intercept the two Su-57's and their Su-35 Escorts totally undetected??? Could we expect India to leave the PAK-FA/FGFA Program the next day??? :wink:


That would be interesting. But unlikely, because as much as we love to hate on the Ruskies at times (myself included) their Su-57 is still better than a lot of the current flying platforms today.

Certainly better than India's current staple the Su-30MKI, I'd put it above the Typhoon and Rafale in overall capabilities as well, It would be a serious threat to any 4th generation platform and a worthy albeit disadvantaged adversary against U.S. 5th gens.

I once saw a picture here where SAAB placed the then T-50 on par with the F-35 in overall capabilities. Debatable I know, but goes to show that the Su-57 is a contender.
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Unread post27 Feb 2018, 11:08

mixelflick wrote:And now, the F-22 will have a chance to evaluate the SU-57 and its RCS, etc.. I predict it'll be be that a decidedly non-stealthy signature or maybe (less likely), something smaller than what we had assumed.


Expect no stealth nozzle, no radar blocker and probable no RAM.
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Unread post27 Feb 2018, 16:11

Expect no stealth nozzle, no radar blocker and probable no RAM.


If that is the case, one wonders why even bother?

Experience in deploying? Maybe.

Sales pitch? Wouldn't convince me if I were a potential buyer.

Easier target for the F-22? Check!
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Feb 2018, 17:10

Scorpion1alpha wrote:[
If that is the case, one wonders why even bother?

Experience in deploying? Maybe.

Sales pitch? Wouldn't convince me if I were a potential buyer.

Easier target for the F-22? Check!


I actually think Sales Pitch makes sense.

One of the biggest gripes against the whole PAK-FA was reliability, they were labeled maintenance hogs, hanger queens, suffering at least one airframe due to fires an engine compressor stall and massive technical challenges.

But now the Sukhoi sales rep comes in touting that their brand new spanking Su-57 is combat proven and that their confidence in the design is so high that they wasted no time sending it into combat.

Not even the American's have that level of confidence with their F-35 he says. The Su-57 displayed a mission readiness rate of 83% and just missed 1 (out of 6) flights.

Most impressively, it suffered no combat losses in the operation while providing vital S.A. to both air and Ground assets.

They can easily hype this to the stars as the only exportable 5th gen with a "proven" combat record.
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element1loop

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Unread post28 Feb 2018, 02:09

Not a deployment based on hard-nosed military assessment.

Remember when JSF was named F-35 (instead of F-24}, and rooskie BS dept quickly named rebuilt MLUed Flankers as Su35s?

Desperate hand-waving.

Anyone know about the Su56?
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