F-22 encounter Su-35 over Syria?

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zero-one

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 10:07

We can't simply conclude that claims we don't agree with are blatant lies, so what if its true. Is there another explanation for what is happening.

Talking to an old F-4 pilot, he said that mock dogfights over the north sea against the Reds are not uncommon back in the cold war, pilots know that both sides won't fire, so sometimes, pilots tend to have some fun by engaging in mock battles. He says it almost never gets published, but it happens.

So what if it was true? What if these guys do manage to get behind Coalition aircraft.

Doing simplistic calculations (T/W ratio, Wing loading and accounting for parasitic drag and body lift) the Raptor should be the tightest turning fighter in Syrian airspace (or any airspace for that matter) at nearly all parts of the envelope with a combat load. Even in airshow configuration the Raptor will be pretty hard to beat.

So is that all there is? or does Flanker airframe really offer advantages in order for their pilots to get to the tail?

Training? Are Russians still so fixated with old fashioned turn and burn fights that they are simply better at fighting the old fashioned way?
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wrightwing

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 21:13

zero-one wrote:We can't simply conclude that claims we don't agree with are blatant lies, so what if its true. Is there another explanation for what is happening.

Talking to an old F-4 pilot, he said that mock dogfights over the north sea against the Reds are not uncommon back in the cold war, pilots know that both sides won't fire, so sometimes, pilots tend to have some fun by engaging in mock battles. He says it almost never gets published, but it happens.

So what if it was true? What if these guys do manage to get behind Coalition aircraft.

Doing simplistic calculations (T/W ratio, Wing loading and accounting for parasitic drag and body lift) the Raptor should be the tightest turning fighter in Syrian airspace (or any airspace for that matter) at nearly all parts of the envelope with a combat load. Even in airshow configuration the Raptor will be pretty hard to beat.

So is that all there is? or does Flanker airframe really offer advantages in order for their pilots to get to the tail?

Training? Are Russians still so fixated with old fashioned turn and burn fights that they are simply better at fighting the old fashioned way?

Flankers were never on the Raptor's "6," nor did they chase them off. At no point were the Flankers not shadowed by F-22s.
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charlielima223

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 22:55

Pretty sure US and NATO aircraft have ended up behind Russian aircraft as well... but you don't hear or read some ego stroking piece about it nor calling a pilot an "Ace". Last I checked I thought an "Ace" had to shoot down 5 or more enemy aircraft and have it be confirmed by other sources.
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popcorn

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 23:45

Well, if the F-22 was dropping flares in front of the Russkie to dissuade him then they can accurately claim they were on the Raptor's six. :doh:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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wrightwing

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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 02:35

popcorn wrote:Well, if the F-22 was dropping flares in front of the Russkie to dissuade him then they can accurately claim they were on the Raptor's six. :doh:

Those were Su-25s. When the Flankers showed up, the F-22s shadowed them.
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zero-one

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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 06:42

I believe the number of airial victories was reduced to just 3 to qualify as an Ace as Colonel Cesar Rodriguez is formaly recognized as currently the last American Ace with 3.

That being said, when was the last time the VVS shot an aircraft ing anger? Korea? Afganistan? Im not counting that Korean air 747 as an airial victory
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hythelday

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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 18:56

zero-one wrote:I believe the number of airial victories was reduced to just 3 to qualify as an Ace as Colonel Cesar Rodriguez is formaly recognized as currently the last American Ace with 3.

That being said, when was the last time the VVS shot an aircraft ing anger? Korea? Afganistan? Im not counting that Korean air 747 as an airial victory


A drone in 2008 over Georgia. Former pilots from USSR flew in Ethiopia-Eritrea conflict. Ethiopian Su-27 are credited with 1 to 3 MiG-29s with either IRAAMs or guns.

Russian sources will gladly tell you how Soviet pilots tore Israelis a new one during 67-73 wars, but that's as credible as this steaming pile of excriment from "Russian ace".
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Jan 2018, 16:10

I guess if you're the Russians, you HAVE to hold near and dear to the old fashioned dogfight.

BVRAAM's have abysmal track record, far worse than post vietnam Sparrow/AMRAAM shots. Supermaneuverability is something they're really clinging to, and refuse to do without. Of course, when you can't engineer stealth/SA on any mass scale...
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icemaverick

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Unread post13 Jan 2018, 01:18

hythelday wrote:Russian sources will gladly tell you how Soviet pilots tore Israelis a new one during 67-73 wars, but that's as credible as this steaming pile of excriment from "Russian ace".


They will undoubtedly make no mention of the pasting they suffered at the hands of the Israelis during Operation Rimon 20 when they lost 5 MiG-21s vs. no losses against IAF Mirage IIIs and F-4s.
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neptune

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Unread post13 Jan 2018, 02:04

....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)
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charlielima223

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Unread post14 Jan 2018, 09:57

neptune wrote:....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)


Too true!

The F-22 has stealth along with better sensors and avionics on board. Trying to find the F-22 is like trying to hear and owl fly at night...

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zero-one

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Unread post14 Jan 2018, 12:11

mixelflick wrote:I guess if you're the Russians, you HAVE to hold near and dear to the old fashioned dogfight.

BVRAAM's have abysmal track record, far worse than post vietnam Sparrow/AMRAAM shots. Supermaneuverability is something they're really clinging to, and refuse to do without. Of course, when you can't engineer stealth/SA on any mass scale...


The sad thing about this notion is that most people seem to think that the west has abandoned traditional combat methods due to over reliance on new technology.

I've see debates go around the web such as "Stealth vs Supermaneuverability" or "BVR vs WVR". And even people on the know seem to be picking a side on these senseless debates.

Thing is, when you're in a Raptor or an F-35, you don't need to pick a side, you literally have the best of both worlds. Why take a side if you can take him down both ways.

Now granted, going into a dogfight in a 5th gen seems silly, but as Raptor and F-35 pilots have said, there are scenarios when they choose to go in close or are forced to get close for some reason. When it does happen, they still come out on top. Even in Neutral Merge setups they come out on top.
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madrat

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 00:50

The PVO used to bag an airliner every so often. Not sure when VVS had it's last modern kill other than maybe over Georgia.
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wrightwing

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 02:51

neptune wrote:....sorry to interrupt ancient history and the gaming fantasies, but ....

- how many different types of Russian aircraft systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- how many different types of Russian radar/ air defense systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities ?
- how many different types of Russian tactics/ systems have the F-22s explored with their ISR capabilities?
- have MALDs been launched in Syria? If so, do they "sort of " self destruct after use?

The question has been asked about exposing the F-22 capabilities to the Russians and I'm simply reversing the question to benefits. As we go forward the F-35s will be tasked with the same efforts; so what happens in a foreign air defense when a US stealth a/c launches a MALD (as a B-1 or B-52) for ISR purposes?

...inquiring minds want to know!
:)

The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.
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charlielima223

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Unread post15 Jan 2018, 08:31

wrightwing wrote:The F-22 has had the opportunity to use its ESM systems to gather intel on Su-30/35, S-300/400, datalinks, etc..... while in Syria.


Imagine just how much more updated the threat library is now for the F-22, F-35, and other aircraft.
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