F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 20:35
by Scorpion1alpha
For those that haven't heard, Key Publications has just published a special issue celebrating the 20th Anniversary of the F-22 Raptor (since Raptor 4001, the 1st EMD jet). The special 100 page issue is titled "F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance" and is available now.

http://shop.keypublishing.com/product/V ... 2%20Raptor

I haven't seen the issue yet, but I'm hoping they do justice and give a glimpse as to why the F-22, in it's current form, remains the most dominant production fighter ever built. And its just going to get even better and more lethal in the near future.

*Note. I'm not getting any compensation or perks of any kind from anyone for mentioning this. Just a heads-up to those that are interested.*

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 20:57
by outlaw162
There's been nothing in the air to dominate for 20 years....other than an obsolete SU-22.

20 years of watching F-16s and F-18s do the work. :lmao:

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 08:07
by viper12
I received the issue yesterday and finished reading it. IMO, it's more centralizing the information than really showing anything new if one has been following the F-22 program with more or less attention for the past 20 years.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 13:46
by mixelflick
outlaw162 wrote:There's been nothing in the air to dominate for 20 years....other than an obsolete SU-22.

20 years of watching F-16s and F-18s do the work. :lmao:


I see what you did there :mrgreen:

But if you talk to F-22 pilots, they see it quite differently. Just the mention of an F-22 in theater changes the game. Russia may have SU-35's cruising the Syrian skies, but I have to imagine those Flanker pilots do so with much trepidation. It has to be incredibly un-nerving knowing Raptors are in the air. They can see you, you can't see them.

In that respect, I predict it will mirror US Navy F-14's. A few minor altercations here or there, but most are going to stay FAR away from the F-22. Sometimes, a plane's value lies in it deterring vs. winning conflicts..

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 14:53
by outlaw162
just having a friendly poke at it....unfortunately i think it will get its shot so to speak someday

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 17:01
by outlaw162
Sometimes, a plane's value lies in it deterring vs. winning conflicts..


Maybe they should revive the old SAC motto for ACC....

"Peace is Our Profession"

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 17:06
by XanderCrews
outlaw162 wrote:
Sometimes, a plane's value lies in it deterring vs. winning conflicts..


Maybe they should revive the old SAC motto for ACC....

"Peace is Our Profession"



I actually do think you could term the F-22 A "strategic fighter" maybe more so because of their expense and limited number, but the effect they have on the region is noticeable. Move a doze. Here or there and watch the situation change

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 18:39
by outlaw162
Yeh, I saw that on a sign in front of Burpelson AFB.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 20:13
by mixelflick
I sure hope they have something up their sleeves beyond the AIM-120D.

The AMRAAM is a good missile. But it's been around since the early 90's. It's known, its strengths and weaknesses are known. Our fighters live and die by AMRAAM, and the F-22 is no exception. Figure out how to defeat the AMRAAM and you've made it to the merge. In the merge, the F-22 is exceptional but a lot more vulnerable vs. BVR.

I've heard of CUDA and other possibilities, but as for what's deployed and operational - do we have ANYTHING else?

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 23:59
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:I sure hope they have something up their sleeves beyond the AIM-120D.

The AMRAAM is a good missile. But it's been around since the early 90's. It's known, its strengths and weaknesses are known. Our fighters live and die by AMRAAM, and the F-22 is no exception. Figure out how to defeat the AMRAAM and you've made it to the merge. In the merge, the F-22 is exceptional but a lot more vulnerable vs. BVR.

I've heard of CUDA and other possibilities, but as for what's deployed and operational - do we have ANYTHING else?

The AIM-120D hasn't been around since the early 90s, nor are it and its strengths/weaknesses known. It shares little in common with early model AMRAAMs, aside from the missile body. The same goes for the AIM-9X Block 2, Standard Missile series, etc..... Their current capabilities far exceed far exceed the imaginations of their developers in the 50s/60s. That's not to say that in the 2020s/30s, that newer more capable AAMs won't be in service, but -120Ds are in no danger of obsolescence.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 08:19
by twistedneck
wrightwing wrote:The AIM-120D hasn't been around since the early 90s, nor are it and its strengths/weaknesses known. It shares little in common with early model AMRAAMs, aside from the missile body. The same goes for the AIM-9X Block 2, Standard Missile series, etc..... Their current capabilities far exceed far exceed the imaginations of their developers in the 50s/60s. That's not to say that in the 2020s/30s, that newer more capable AAMs won't be in service, but -120Ds are in no danger of obsolescence.



wrightwing, you are surely correct about the advancement of our old AMRAM into the much more capable AIM120D.. but along these same lines the other great A/A missile for close range is the AIM 9X and over Syria recently a SH fired at a Fitter from point blank range 1.5miles and the Fitter easily spoofed the vaunted AIM 9X.

That is not saying much for the most advanced IR seeker missile in the US inventory.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 09:21
by wrightwing
twistedneck wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The AIM-120D hasn't been around since the early 90s, nor are it and its strengths/weaknesses known. It shares little in common with early model AMRAAMs, aside from the missile body. The same goes for the AIM-9X Block 2, Standard Missile series, etc..... Their current capabilities far exceed far exceed the imaginations of their developers in the 50s/60s. That's not to say that in the 2020s/30s, that newer more capable AAMs won't be in service, but -120Ds are in no danger of obsolescence.



wrightwing, you are surely correct about the advancement of our old AMRAM into the much more capable AIM120D.. but along these same lines the other great A/A missile for close range is the AIM 9X and over Syria recently a SH fired at a Fitter from point blank range 1.5miles and the Fitter easily spoofed the vaunted AIM 9X.

That is not saying much for the most advanced IR seeker missile in the US inventory.

Actually, the circumstances of the miss haven't been publicly discussed. No official source has stated that the AIM-9X was spoofed into missing. Were I a Fitter pilot, I wouldn't count on that happening again, in any future engagement. As for the AIM-120D, not only does it have significant range and ECCM improvements over early models, but enhanced navigational algorithms, and redundancy in guidance (active seeker, 2 way datalink, GPS, INS, and HOJ.) There's a lot more in the kill chain, that needs to be countered, to spoof a -120D

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 01:18
by charlielima223
wrightwing wrote:Actually, the circumstances of the miss haven't been publicly discussed. No official source has stated that the AIM-9X was spoofed into missing. Were I a Fitter pilot, I wouldn't count on that happening again, in any future engagement. As for the AIM-120D, not only does it have significant range and ECCM improvements over early models, but enhanced navigational algorithms, and redundancy in guidance (active seeker, 2 way datalink, GPS, INS, and HOJ.) There's a lot more in the kill chain, that needs to be countered, to spoof a -120D


(time index 5:10)


It would seem according to the pilot, the Sidewinder didn't even do anything after it went off the rails.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2018, 21:00
by Scorpion1alpha
New DVD by Key Publishing: "F-22 Raptor - Air Dominance" to coincide with it's 20th Anniversary.

http://shop.keypublishing.com/product/V ... 0Dominance

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 01:00
by charlielima223
Didn't really know where to put this. While we all talk about the aircraft its self, its good to know the story behind the aircraft and the people who fly and maintain it.


Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 16:53
by Scorpion1alpha
charlielima223 wrote:While we all talk about the aircraft its self, its good to know the story behind the aircraft and the people who fly and maintain it.


I agree. Without all the people contributing to it's design, development and eventually employment, the F-22 would be nothing more than exotic metal just sitting there.

One such person who contributed to the F-22 program is Steve "Hooter" Rainey. For 20+ years, he has the unique distinction of being with the program from the start and continues to this day as the F-22's CTP.

Lockheed Martin pilot celebrates 20th anniversary of his first flight in the F-22

Steve “Hooter” Rainey celebrated the 20th anniversary of his first flight in the F-22 Raptor, May 17, 2018, with a flight and an unexpected “wash down” at Edwards Air Force Base.

“Well, I didn’t expect to be watered down after the flight — that’s usually reserved for a pilot’s first and last flight — but my incredible team-mates and my Raptor family members wanted to make this a special day for me. They are truly awesome and I am so very fortunate to work with them daily,” said Rainey, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 chief test pilot. He also served as the F-22 squadron’s operations officer, squadron commander and Boeing’s F-22 chief test pilot.

Enjoying the unique opportunity of seeing the Raptor from its infancy, Rainey has been involved with the program from Critical Design Review to the present, including many major milestones. He’s pretty sure that he is the only test pilot ever to have had that unique honor, privilege and opportunity.

Twenty years ago sitting in the cockpit of F-22 4001, the first production Raptor, Lt. Col. Rainey thought to himself, “I’m the luckiest guy in the world.” He told the test operations control room that everything was fine, he needed another minute to check things out — and then he just sat there, looking around, absorbing the moment. He was about to become the first military pilot to fly the mighty Raptor. “It was an unbelievable day.” The plane had been flown first by the F-22 chief test pilot Paul Metz and Lockheed Martin test pilot Jon Beesley at the Lockheed Martin plant in Marietta, Ga. This was to be the first time the customer, for whom the aircraft was built, would take to the air. It was only fitting that the test center at Edwards Air Force Base was the place.

That first flight at Edwards was the beginning of a number of firsts in the F-22s development and the start of true envelope expansion testing for the Raptor. Rainey also performed other firsts including: in-flight engine shutdown and air start testing, aerial refueling, loads test mission, emergency landing gear extension test, and first ferry flight of the F-22 aircraft 4002 from the factory in Marietta to Edwards AFB. He was also the first to test an unplanned dual engine flameout in a Raptor — ever. “The Pratt & Whitney engines are so incredible that they restarted and provided thrust instantly and automatically. The team didn’t know until the data was analyzed that an actual dual engine flameout had momentarily occurred,” explained Rainey.

Everything about the F-22 was ahead of its time back then and still is today, claims the experienced pilot, who has more than 1, 260 flight hours in the Raptor, more than 2,100 in the F-16, more than 1,500 in the F-4, 1,300 airline and more than 6,800 total hours in over 45 types of aircraft.

The Air Force was committed to having something revolutionary in every aspect of the F-22: design, avionics and engines. Rainey said he and other test pilots were initially apprehensive of the new Pratt & Whitney engines from their experiences flying Pratt motors in the F-15 and F-16, due to compressor stalls. That apprehension went away when he first felt the new engine. On an SPO fieldtrip to an engine run at West Palm Beach, Fla., in 1997, before first flight, he fell in love with the F-119 engine, even before it went into afterburner.

“There was a water canal behind the run stand and it started kicking up a little bit of rooster tail even in mil-power. Then the engine went to max afterburner— your body quaked, the fillings in your teeth rattled and a huge rooster tail raced across the water and then the alligators started hightailing it — jumping out of the water to get away from this beast of an engine roaring at them!” laughed Rainey, explaining that this was his Will Smith “Independence Day” moment. “I knew exactly how Will felt when he was flying the spaceship and I thought, ‘I’ve got to get me one of these!’” He was beyond ecstatic. Fortunately, he did get himself one — the first one, to be exact.

In the past two decades he has helped to keep the Raptor ahead of its time. He is often asked, since the F-22 fighter is able to operate with impunity anywhere in the world, why there is so much emphasis on modernizing our air power capabilities.

“Every design aspect of the Raptor is innovative,” explained Rainey. “From its revolutionary approach to subsystems, hydraulics and electronics, to stealth, super cruise, its first ever highly integrated sensor-fused avionics system controlled with super computers to its extreme high agility with thrust vectoring and post-stall maneuvering.” Rainey added that the F-22 is still ahead of its time. However, other countries are attempting to narrow the-gap. “The Euro-fighter, the Russian SU-57 and Chinese J-20 are examples of other nations trying to catch up to the mighty Raptor,” he said. “Modernization is moving the bar higher to ensure that the Raptor will continue to be ‘King of the Sky’ well into the future, to support the national defense objectives of the United States of America by providing air dominance anywhere – any time.”

Rainey gives thanks to the pilots and team mates who mentored him along the way, including Lt. Col. Al Kohn, John Fergione, and James Brown. He is especially thankful to his wife, Cindy (Avis), who still supports him- as long as she doesn’t have to choose between him and her new puppy, Tali. He still says he is the luckiest man on earth.

Question: When does a bad guy know there’s a Raptor in the fight? Answer: When his wingman blows up! First Look, First Shot, First Kill-F-22 Raptor — Total Air Dominance!


With Raptor 4001:
Image

Reaching 1,000hrs in the F-22:
Image

Rainey's 20th Anniversary flight (In Raptor 4009):
Image

Current "hero" shot:
Image

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 13:36
by mixelflick
It's still #1 20 years on..

The J-20 is no match for it air to air, and if recent reports of Indian MKI's detecting it are true, its stealth is in question too. Needs a better engine too, and the Chinese are even further behind than the Russians there. The only issue is that China will be building a lot more than 180 of them. The SU 57 is its closest competitor, but we all know the story there.. Major problems with stealth, engines etc and with India pulling out - it'll be that much more difficult to develop into a true 5th gen platform.

I just hope they don't skimp on the upgrades: Better weapons, a helmet mounted sight and presumably engine upgrades as well. Silver bullet force so they need to keep it ahead of the threat..

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 13:51
by hornetfinn
mixelflick wrote:It's still #1 20 years on..

The J-20 is no match for it air to air, and if recent reports of Indian MKI's detecting it are true, its stealth is in question too. Needs a better engine too, and the Chinese are even further behind than the Russians there. The only issue is that China will be building a lot more than 180 of them. The SU 57 is its closest competitor, but we all know the story there.. Major problems with stealth, engines etc and with India pulling out - it'll be that much more difficult to develop into a true 5th gen platform.

I just hope they don't skimp on the upgrades: Better weapons, a helmet mounted sight and presumably engine upgrades as well. Silver bullet force so they need to keep it ahead of the threat..


I agree except that I really doubt China will be building that many of them if they have capabilities even remotely comparable to F-22 as that would mean they are seriously more expensive than Su-27 derivatives. Of course there will be all those F-35s also, which will mean USA will have huge numerical and technological advantage. Not to say J-20 might not be a threat in certain circumstances in some local conflict close to China.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 18:09
by charlielima223
mixelflick wrote:The J-20 is no match for it air to air, and if recent reports of Indian MKI's detecting it are true, its stealth is in question too. Needs a better engine too, and the Chinese are even further behind than the Russians there. The only issue is that China will be building a lot more than 180 of them. The SU 57 is its closest competitor, but we all know the story there.. Major problems with stealth, engines etc and with India pulling out - it'll be that much more difficult to develop into a true 5th gen platform.


IMHO I wouldn't take the reports of an Su-30MKI detecting the J-20 with any real face value. The Su-30MKI still uses a PESA radar. I think in some areas China is ahead of Russia and vice versa. China has at least been able to build and produce an AESA radar for their fighter aircraft in the J-10. Russia still is developing and testing the AESA radar for their PAKFA. Russia is able to produce better engine technology than China and avionic suites... hence China procuring a small number of Su-35s so they can copy it. How close PAKFA and J-20 comes to F-22 is debatable in some regards. Though I wholeheartedly agree that even after 13 years of service, F-22 still reigns supreme and its competitors are struggling to play catch up.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:29
by Scorpion1alpha
A photo from the 20th Anniversary gathering at Edwards. Several prominent members present along with current members of the CTF (ED 132 in the background).

Image

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 22:29
by wrightwing
lrrpf52 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I sure hope they have something up their sleeves beyond the AIM-120D.

The AMRAAM is a good missile. But it's been around since the early 90's. It's known, its strengths and weaknesses are known. Our fighters live and die by AMRAAM, and the F-22 is no exception. Figure out how to defeat the AMRAAM and you've made it to the merge. In the merge, the F-22 is exceptional but a lot more vulnerable vs. BVR.

I've heard of CUDA and other possibilities, but as for what's deployed and operational - do we have ANYTHING else?


AIM-120A <<<<< AIM-120D

AIM-120 pk from F-22 is way higher than AIM-120pk from any 4th Gen aircraft.

F-22 can come in way close and engage from superior information and energy positions, with superior terminal guidance options. If a target is within NEZ and doesn't know it, they're screwed.

The last thing you ever want to do is "make it to a merge" with F-22 or F-35, because that's a merge on their terms, not yours. It's a terrible place to be.


Not to mention being able to defeat an AIM-120A (or C) doesn't mean being able to defeat an AIM-120D (with improved ECCM, 2 way datalink, GPS/INS, HOJ, etc....)

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 14:35
by mixelflick
OK, so just how much better PK does an F-22 with AIM-120D have, vs say an F-15C with AIM-120D??

The missile is the same. Launch energy is greater in F-22, I get that. But cannot an F-15C go supersonic (1.2/1.4) to impart the same launch energy, or close to it??

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 15:26
by geforcerfx
mixelflick wrote:OK, so just how much better PK does an F-22 with AIM-120D have, vs say an F-15C with AIM-120D??

The missile is the same. Launch energy is greater in F-22, I get that. But cannot an F-15C go supersonic (1.2/1.4) to impart the same launch energy, or close to it??


F-22's radar is better, so better more accurate data being fed to the aim-120D from the F-22 vs the F-15, assuming they are using there own radars to guide the missile (awacs, F-35, F-22, ship).

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 15:35
by jetnerd
"OK, so just how much better PK does an F-22 with AIM-120D have, vs say an F-15C with AIM-120D??

The missile is the same. Launch energy is greater in F-22, I get that. But cannot an F-15C go supersonic (1.2/1.4) to impart the same launch energy, or close to it??"

And there is of course the far greater likelihood that the F-22 will be undetected right until launch (and maybe still not even at all) and by extension, reliably fire well within the missile's NEZ - 2 advantages not available to any other fighter than the F-35.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 15:53
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:The missile is the same. Launch energy is greater in F-22, I get that. But cannot an F-15C go supersonic (1.2/1.4) to impart the same launch energy, or close to it??


Lets put some boundaries on this real quick. Lets say the target in question is flying at 36,000ft and 0.95M towards the shooter and can be targeted at whatever range needed.

The F-15 is cruising at 40,000ft and 0.95M while the F-22 is cruising at 50,000ft and 1.5M.

Using miniZAP, this shows an AIM-120D launched from each of these conditions could be launched from a maximum of 120nm in 205s and 180nm in 257s, respectively. This is NOT a NEZ, this is assuming the target flies straight and level the whole time and these are the ranges at which the missile speed drops below 1.25M. Think of these ranges as pK=0. Any basic change in heading WILL make the missiles miss.

Now lets say the target is using the same altitude and speed as before, but is heading away from the shooters. Now the Eagle launched missile has a maximum launch range of 58nm in 205s while the Raptor launched missile has a maximum launch range of 102nm in 257s. Let's say this is max pK of 85%, the innate pK of the missile in it's ability to launch, guide, track, and detonate. Any basic change in heading will only reduce the distance the missile has to fly

We are eliminating every variable except the shooting platform right now.

What we see here is that the kinematics of the Raptors flight allow an immediate long range and high energy response. Where the F-15 has pK=0, the F-22 has pK~=65%

Can the Eagle speed up to improve missile kinematics? yes, so can the F-22.

So, it would take an F-15 that is at 40,000ft 80 seconds to accelerate to M1.4 per TO 1F-15A-1 Figure B9-23 representing an F-15C with eight air to air missiles and a centerline pylon with a starting weight of 44,000lb. Even this only changes the pK ranges from 58-120nm to 71-138nm, And 80 seconds was spent along with several thousand pounds of fuel. What do you think would happen if the F-22 did that?

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The F-22 will always be able to impart more energy into a missile shot than any other fighter. This means it's missiles will always have more speed available to them and the enemy will have a shorter reaction time.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 16:00
by zero-one
Think about it like this.
The M-61 is a relic weapon

But how often have we heard Raptor pilots claiming to be able to sneak up behind undetected and gunning down other fighters.

Even against the Typhoon, the infamous Raptor Salad article.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-373312/
the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.


So even against the Typhoon, without the element of surprise the gun becomes a real threat with the F-22.

So in retrospect
Any weapon, even the cannon become exponentially more lethal in an F-22

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 18:05
by Scorpion1alpha
lrrpf52 wrote:The Raptor ends up being a merciful, strategic asset...


Merciful? Heh...kind of goes against it's reputation as a Klingon Death Killing Machine with an insatiable appetite for destruction.

But the F-22 being looked at as "merciful" might have its place in placating the PC masses.

Image

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 18:14
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:OK, so just how much better PK does an F-22 with AIM-120D have, vs say an F-15C with AIM-120D??

The missile is the same. Launch energy is greater in F-22, I get that. But cannot an F-15C go supersonic (1.2/1.4) to impart the same launch energy, or close to it??

The F-15 can't get as close, undetected. Even if the F-15 launches at the same speed, but it's 2x to 4x further away, it won't have nearly the same Pk. Additionally, a foe that's aware of a threat will begin reacting sooner (speed, maneuvers, EW, etc...)

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 18:53
by juretrn
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Image

That is probably how the Raptor felt intecepting those Iranian Phantoms or stalking Russian Sucks over Syria.
:D

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 02:58
by Fox1
It was such a huge and terrible mistake we didn't build more F-22s. This is the best air dominance fighter the world has ever known. We spent a small fortune and many years developing it. Then we only bought 187 of them. What a waste. I will never be able to forgive Obama and Gates for prematurely shutting down the line. Gates thought the only threat we would be facing going forward was goat herders armed with AK-47s. And Obama in 2012 laughed at Romney's suggestion that Russia was still somehow our #1 adversary. Anyone remember the debate in which he smugly told Romney "the 1980s called and wants its foreign policy back"? Then look what happened two years later.

Isn't it funny how the world situation can change in the blink of an eye? Now we are back to planning for war against near peer adversaries and "great power competition" is the new buzzword. China has since fielded two stealth fighters and Russia is trying to bring one into being. The U.S. Army is once again highly focused on Europe, while the Navy, Marines and Air Force seem fully occupied with checking Chinese expansionist ambitions in the Pacific. Terror groups like ISIS and Al-Queda are hardly mentioned anymore. So much for visionaries like Obama and Gates. Their crystal ball couldn't even see what the world had in store through the end of the second term. We sure could have used some more F-22s. But nah, those were just cold war relics, machines designed to fight wars of the past. Uh huh. Right.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 14:10
by mixelflick
Gates is a fool, and should have his pension stopped. His claim now the F-22 was sacrificed for the B-21 is pure fiction, an effort to save face for his disaster decision to stop the F-22. He and Obama are reprehensible for those (and other) decisions. A true case of lack of leadership and leading from behind..

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 12:51
by mixelflick
For the Russians, it must be rather sobering that we had superior engines in 1988. I get the feeling that even if they stole the info, they couldn't mass produce it given its tolerances, advanced materials etc. Ditto for stealth in general. The Chinese? Maybe. But building and deploying a 5th generation jet is clearly vexing. It's a LONG process, gobbles up insane amounts of $ and.... I don't think even the Chinese are there yet.

It may look the part, but these Russian and Chinese designs can't possibly compete without the engines, stealth and avionics necessary to compete with the F-22 and F-35. And provided we do 6th gen right (and buy enough of them), it's just going to get worse for them as the decades march on..

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 16:52
by Scorpion1alpha
juretrn wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Image

That is probably how the Raptor felt intecepting those Iranian Phantoms or stalking Russian Sucks over Syria.
:D


Just imagine how the Iranians, Syrians, Russians and everyone else felt when they they didn’t know F-22s were around but were called over their radio to look over their shoulder. The look of surprise and shock no doubt on their faces when they saw the F-22’s nose pointing at them.

Image

Then they see the Winders jutting out.

Image

You know you can forget about trying any evasive maneuvers, because you’re dealing with the F-22, the most maneuverable production fighter ever built and it’ll just keep pointing it’s nose at you. If you’re the Raptor Driver, you’re thinking “Hmm…why waste a missile when I can just use my gun?” If you’re on the receiving end, it is quite unnerving your life could have been taken without you even knowing it...at close range.

Or…it can be a merciful God.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 01:15
by popcorn
How it felt like taking a swim after watching 'Jaws'... Lol

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 08:40
by zero-one
lrrpf52 wrote:I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.


Thats probably how their pilots talk, but their fans have a very different conversation.

The Americans are fools for putting all their eggs in the stealth basket, advancements in radar technology and IR/Optical as well as passive EM sensors, network integrated radar sites have already rendered Stealth obsolete or at least only useful against 3rd world adversaries.

Da, just look, even poor Serbia managed to shoot down their precious Stealth aircraft, just imagine if they tried to invade us, Stealth planes would drop like flies.

This is why Sukhoi took the smart approach, instead of heavily compromising performance in the name of stealth, Sukhoi placed heavy emphasis on aircraft performance with adequate levels of Stealth and more sensors to give their Raptor no place to hide.

But what if the F-22 does manage to detect you first and shoots first.

Don't be foolish, missile shots specially BVR shots have a very poor track record, their prized Aim-54 was hyped up to be able to hit drones from extreme ranges, but in actual combat, how many has it hit? 0 from USN serviceif I remember correctly. This will just get worse with the advent of our advanced DRFM bassed jammers. Trust me we will always make it to the merge. And in there, the superior performance and highly WVR centric doctrine of our pilots will surprise them.

Yes I heard that even Typhoons and Rafales beat their F-22 up close, in India Su-30MKI mopped the floor with Typhoons, I just feel sorry for them, spending billions on poor performing aircraft.

Just imagine the look on their faces when they see 3D TVC in all its glory eating up their billion dollar toys

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 10:34
by mk82
zero-one wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.


Thats probably how their pilots talk, but their fans have a very different conversation.

The Americans are fools for putting all their eggs in the stealth basket, advancements in radar technology and IR/Optical as well as passive EM sensors, network integrated radar sites have already rendered Stealth obsolete or at least only useful against 3rd world adversaries.

Da, just look, even poor Serbia managed to shoot down their precious Stealth aircraft, just imagine if they tried to invade us, Stealth planes would drop like flies.

This is why Sukhoi took the smart approach, instead of heavily compromising performance in the name of stealth, Sukhoi placed heavy emphasis on aircraft performance with adequate levels of Stealth and more sensors to give their Raptor no place to hide.

But what if the F-22 does manage to detect you first and shoots first.

Don't be foolish, missile shots specially BVR shots have a very poor track record, their prized Aim-54 was hyped up to be able to hit drones from extreme ranges, but in actual combat, how many has it hit? 0 from USN serviceif I remember correctly. This will just get worse with the advent of our advanced DRFM bassed jammers. Trust me we will always make it to the merge. And in there, the superior performance and highly WVR centric doctrine of our pilots will surprise them.

Yes I heard that even Typhoons and Rafales beat their F-22 up close, in India Su-30MKI mopped the floor with Typhoons, I just feel sorry for them, spending billions on poor performing aircraft.

Just imagine the look on their faces when they see 3D TVC in all its glory eating up their billion dollar toys


Who cares about their deluded fans? Results talk.....bullsh*t walks......

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 15:50
by zero-one
Actually a simple comparison of Thrust to weight ratio between the F-22 vs Su-35 and the F-35A vs the Su-30 will shut them up. 100%, 60%, 40% fuel with 6 missiles each and the 5th gens will have better numbers.

It's too simplistic, I know, but most fanboys don't know that.
True story, a Flanker fan boy once accused me of not knowing what I was talking about because my calculations for the Su-30MKI was made with 6 missiles, he said the MKI could carry 12 missiles... :roll: :roll: :roll:
So I re-calculated, this time with 12 missiles, yup he just shot himself in the leg with that one.

Then you throw in the fact that flying clean means better fluid dynamic properties all around the aircraft, resulting in superior L/D, T/D and CL values and they're toast.

Oh and sacrificing performance for Stealth? Yeah that was true for 1st generation Stealth which was based on diamond panels. But 3rd generation Stealth shows that the F-22 and F-35 were superior to their 4th generation counterparts in All kinematic metrics.

Remember that 4th generation fighters sacrificed almost everything for performance and yet 5th gen surpassed their performance while maintaining Stealth.

Thats what billions of dollars worth of research can get you. the only down side is they are expensive.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 13:56
by Scorpion1alpha
Posted in Air Force Times. Article by Alex Lockie, Business Inside:

F-22 stealth jets got 587 aircraft to back off in their ‘combat surge’ over Syria

U.S. Air Force F-22s recently completed their first “combat surge” in operations over Syria, and in doing so deterred almost 600 Syria, Iranian and Russian combat aircraft in the crowded skies there, the Pentagon said.

Raptor pilots from the 94th Fighter Squadron out of Joint Base Langley-Eustis completed 590 individual flights, totaling 4,600 flight hours, with 4,250 pounds of ordnance dropped in their deployment to the region in the “first-ever F-22 Raptor combat surge.”

The Pentagon said the F-22s, assigned to the 380th Expeditionary Fighter Wing at Al Dhafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates, “deterred” 587 enemy aircraft in the process, suggesting the jet commands some respect against older, Russian-made models often in operation by Russian and Syrian forces. This surge saw F-22 operations maximized over a three-day period.

Unlike any other battle space today, U.S. forces on the ground in Syria have come under threat from enemy airpower.

F-22s on this deployment escorted Navy F/A-18s as part of their mission. In June 2017, Lt. Cmdr. Mike “MOB” Tremel, a Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet pilot, scored the U.S.’s first air-to-air kill in years after downing a Syrian Su-22 that threatened US forces in the country.

The stealth fighter pilots defended U.S. forces against enemy bomber aircraft and also backed up U.S., U.K., and French forces when they struck Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime in the country’s west in response to chemical weapons attacks.

The F-22s flew "deep into Syrian territory, facing both enemy fighters and surface-to-air missile systems," the Pentagon said.

While no US or allied aircraft went down, photos from the most recent U.S. attack on Syria’s government show the country’s air defenses firing blindly into the night sky as the F-22s worked overhead.

The F-22 has encountered enemy fighter jets above Syria before, but the Pentagon has only reported relatively safe interactions and intercepts.


Long ago, some have said the F-22 will shorten wars and save lives. Had the US wanted to, how many kills would the F-22 have tallied up to this point? If the kills were happening, would the other side continue to want to fight or bury their jets in the sand like the Iraqis did? In its A2G role, how much damage, destruction and kills did it achieve dropping ordnance on ground targets?

For 20+ years, there’s been one word that has described the F-22: Dominant.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 16:46
by SpudmanWP
Lol.. Only 4,250 lbs??? What's that, like 4x 1k JDAMs and an SDB thrown in for good measure?

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ver-syria/

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 17:47
by mixelflick
There are those that would have you believe the F-22 wasn't worth the $. Obama and Gates were of this opinion, and it didn't take but a few years to judge their mistake costly.

So now the revisionist history is this: They cancelled the F-22 to make room for the B-21!!!

Yep, that's the party line now. Funny how nobody every heard of such a thing when they cancelled it. Oh no, it was all about fighting radicals using pickup tricks and AK's. The US had no near peer adversary, they were both way behind. It would be another decade before their 5th gens flew. Oh, how wonderful it must have been to be a fly on the wall when the J-20 took off for its maiden flight when Gates was in China! Credit to them for sticking it to him and making him look like the fool that he is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Gates should have his pension yanked for such an onerous mistake. Obama got what he deserved, having to pass the torch to a man he made fun of and dismissed (repeatedly). I'd have killed to be in the limo with them on the way to the inauguration.

All of which brings us here: The F-22/F-15 combo suspends American air dominance on a very dicey 400 aircraft thread. You can make the case we have a 1,000 F-16's and 220 more F-15E's in an emergency, but those aircraft are duly matched with Russian and Chinas's Flankers and J-10B's/C's. You can also make the case the F-35 will be a very good air superiority platform. But as is the case with our F-16's and F-15E's, that's not really what they were intended for. Certainly not what the USAF wants to use them for. It'll be primarily air to ground for a LONG time...

But then, what did you expect from a US President and appointed Secretary of Defense that literally flew around the world apologizing for America, giving billions to rogue nations like Iran and treated our servicemen like 2nd class citizens?

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 23:11
by juretrn
1 fighter squadron (18 fighters?) against 600 enemies.
So much for double-digit SAMs and Su-35s, LOL.
What's the operating word for that?
Utter and complete DOMINANCE.

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 00:46
by popcorn
In other words, 587 pairs of soiled underpants... :devil:

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 08:03
by charlielima223
Image

Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2018, 23:28
by citanon
New video of performance in Mar this year. The 360 backflip at 11:50 seems new:


Re: F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2018, 03:32
by charlielima223
citanon wrote:New video of performance in Mar this year. The 360 backflip at 11:50 seems new:



That is their powerloop followed by their loaded roll. They've been doing that for awhile now.