F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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juretrn

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Unread post25 Jun 2018, 18:53

Scorpion1alpha wrote:Image

That is probably how the Raptor felt intecepting those Iranian Phantoms or stalking Russian Sucks over Syria.
:D
Russia stronk
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lrrpf52

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Unread post25 Jun 2018, 23:58

The F-4E airframe and tactics had a huge influence on how the stores would be configured going into the teen fighters, mainly for the F-14 and F-15.

Image

F-15 took the same number of BVR SARH and IR missiles, but with a much larger radar than the F-4E, better avionics, the TEWS suite, with the M61 moved to the wing root so it could kill or exchange in BVR, then go to IR missiles and finally the gun in a WVR fight, with superior energy retention, visibility, and maneuverability to the Phantom.

Image


They leaned heavily on improving the capabilities with the F-15A and F-15C over the F-4E across the board, including:

* Radar and Fire Control Computer able to be used by a single pilot
* HUD with missile and gun modes for the improved AIM-7 and AIM-9 variants, as well as LCOS
* HOTAS
* Thrust to Weight
* Internal ECM/ECCM/RWR

Looking at the F-22A, you realize we're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Everything is different across the board.

Image
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Fox1

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Unread post26 Jun 2018, 02:58

It was such a huge and terrible mistake we didn't build more F-22s. This is the best air dominance fighter the world has ever known. We spent a small fortune and many years developing it. Then we only bought 187 of them. What a waste. I will never be able to forgive Obama and Gates for prematurely shutting down the line. Gates thought the only threat we would be facing going forward was goat herders armed with AK-47s. And Obama in 2012 laughed at Romney's suggestion that Russia was still somehow our #1 adversary. Anyone remember the debate in which he smugly told Romney "the 1980s called and wants its foreign policy back"? Then look what happened two years later.

Isn't it funny how the world situation can change in the blink of an eye? Now we are back to planning for war against near peer adversaries and "great power competition" is the new buzzword. China has since fielded two stealth fighters and Russia is trying to bring one into being. The U.S. Army is once again highly focused on Europe, while the Navy, Marines and Air Force seem fully occupied with checking Chinese expansionist ambitions in the Pacific. Terror groups like ISIS and Al-Queda are hardly mentioned anymore. So much for visionaries like Obama and Gates. Their crystal ball couldn't even see what the world had in store through the end of the second term. We sure could have used some more F-22s. But nah, those were just cold war relics, machines designed to fight wars of the past. Uh huh. Right.
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Unread post27 Jun 2018, 14:10

Gates is a fool, and should have his pension stopped. His claim now the F-22 was sacrificed for the B-21 is pure fiction, an effort to save face for his disaster decision to stop the F-22. He and Obama are reprehensible for those (and other) decisions. A true case of lack of leadership and leading from behind..
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lrrpf52

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Unread post29 Jun 2018, 00:40

I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.

"Our intelligence people have estimated we get detected by Raptor radar well beyond our detection ranges, and none of our developmental radars even can see it. Yankees' own APG-63(V)3 AESA can't see it.

It carries 6 AMRAAMs and 2 AIM-9X internally. Technical analysts who have gathered all data from honey pot whores, mail order wives, and our insider people have concluded that it can jettison internal stores at speeds of at least 1.6 Mach, maybe more, and has advanced next generation radar capabilities not even realized in MiG-31 modernazinaya.

If it sees us first, can approach us at will, and we get no radar warning beep or missile launch warning, what will we do? Are we making any aircraft and countermeasures to help defeat this Yankee devil? I feel like we'd be live targets for Raptor to shoot at will while we don't see anything!
"

"Da comrade. Listen. Our scientific and aerospace community is working on these problems hard, with the greatest minds no capitalist could buy. In the meantime, we must use our electronic systems to deceive location and broadcast noise to jam homing systems of AMRAAM, while optical detection devices are developed for Su-35S and Su-57."

"When do we get Su-35S or Su-57 in this squadron? We've been flying Su-30SMs for how many years? What systems are there to counter the Raptor APG-77? What about those Amerikanski Red Flag exercises?"

"Vitali, relax. Have a drink. Red Flag is nothing but capitalist propaganda. Those fat, dumb Americans need to hear reassurance from corrupt government and huge aerospace bureaus that American jets are best, so they trick the outcome every time to indicate superior performance for latest billion dollar toys to placate populace. Our guys will take care of it soon. If Yankees attack us, we'll simply turn their little country into radioactive wasteland. Be sure of it."

"But we all heard what Persians and Syriacs said who encountered Raptor. Persian Phantom pilots were chasing down drone. Along comes Raptor out of nowhere. No ground controller warning, no radar warning, nothing. Just very cocky Yankee Raptor pilot asking Persians if they want to play with his new toy.

Then Syriacs said same thing many times. Not even Yankee media report it. They could be anywhere when we go up. Those Amerikanski dogs are joking with each other that 'First indication of Raptor in sky is your wingman explodes'. I want to fight these fools, not fly around and die from someone I can't see. With Eagle, we can see it just fine. Exchange missiles and merge, where we have super maneuverability and R-73. What if Raptor uses Eagle to bait us? How do we counter this?
"
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mixelflick

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Unread post29 Jun 2018, 12:51

For the Russians, it must be rather sobering that we had superior engines in 1988. I get the feeling that even if they stole the info, they couldn't mass produce it given its tolerances, advanced materials etc. Ditto for stealth in general. The Chinese? Maybe. But building and deploying a 5th generation jet is clearly vexing. It's a LONG process, gobbles up insane amounts of $ and.... I don't think even the Chinese are there yet.

It may look the part, but these Russian and Chinese designs can't possibly compete without the engines, stealth and avionics necessary to compete with the F-22 and F-35. And provided we do 6th gen right (and buy enough of them), it's just going to get worse for them as the decades march on..
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post01 Jul 2018, 16:52

juretrn wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:Image

That is probably how the Raptor felt intecepting those Iranian Phantoms or stalking Russian Sucks over Syria.
:D


Just imagine how the Iranians, Syrians, Russians and everyone else felt when they they didn’t know F-22s were around but were called over their radio to look over their shoulder. The look of surprise and shock no doubt on their faces when they saw the F-22’s nose pointing at them.

Image

Then they see the Winders jutting out.

Image

You know you can forget about trying any evasive maneuvers, because you’re dealing with the F-22, the most maneuverable production fighter ever built and it’ll just keep pointing it’s nose at you. If you’re the Raptor Driver, you’re thinking “Hmm…why waste a missile when I can just use my gun?” If you’re on the receiving end, it is quite unnerving your life could have been taken without you even knowing it...at close range.

Or…it can be a merciful God.
I'm watching...
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popcorn

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Unread post02 Jul 2018, 01:15

How it felt like taking a swim after watching 'Jaws'... Lol
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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zero-one

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Unread post02 Jul 2018, 08:40

lrrpf52 wrote:I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.


Thats probably how their pilots talk, but their fans have a very different conversation.

The Americans are fools for putting all their eggs in the stealth basket, advancements in radar technology and IR/Optical as well as passive EM sensors, network integrated radar sites have already rendered Stealth obsolete or at least only useful against 3rd world adversaries.

Da, just look, even poor Serbia managed to shoot down their precious Stealth aircraft, just imagine if they tried to invade us, Stealth planes would drop like flies.

This is why Sukhoi took the smart approach, instead of heavily compromising performance in the name of stealth, Sukhoi placed heavy emphasis on aircraft performance with adequate levels of Stealth and more sensors to give their Raptor no place to hide.

But what if the F-22 does manage to detect you first and shoots first.

Don't be foolish, missile shots specially BVR shots have a very poor track record, their prized Aim-54 was hyped up to be able to hit drones from extreme ranges, but in actual combat, how many has it hit? 0 from USN serviceif I remember correctly. This will just get worse with the advent of our advanced DRFM bassed jammers. Trust me we will always make it to the merge. And in there, the superior performance and highly WVR centric doctrine of our pilots will surprise them.

Yes I heard that even Typhoons and Rafales beat their F-22 up close, in India Su-30MKI mopped the floor with Typhoons, I just feel sorry for them, spending billions on poor performing aircraft.

Just imagine the look on their faces when they see 3D TVC in all its glory eating up their billion dollar toys
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Unread post02 Jul 2018, 10:34

zero-one wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.


Thats probably how their pilots talk, but their fans have a very different conversation.

The Americans are fools for putting all their eggs in the stealth basket, advancements in radar technology and IR/Optical as well as passive EM sensors, network integrated radar sites have already rendered Stealth obsolete or at least only useful against 3rd world adversaries.

Da, just look, even poor Serbia managed to shoot down their precious Stealth aircraft, just imagine if they tried to invade us, Stealth planes would drop like flies.

This is why Sukhoi took the smart approach, instead of heavily compromising performance in the name of stealth, Sukhoi placed heavy emphasis on aircraft performance with adequate levels of Stealth and more sensors to give their Raptor no place to hide.

But what if the F-22 does manage to detect you first and shoots first.

Don't be foolish, missile shots specially BVR shots have a very poor track record, their prized Aim-54 was hyped up to be able to hit drones from extreme ranges, but in actual combat, how many has it hit? 0 from USN serviceif I remember correctly. This will just get worse with the advent of our advanced DRFM bassed jammers. Trust me we will always make it to the merge. And in there, the superior performance and highly WVR centric doctrine of our pilots will surprise them.

Yes I heard that even Typhoons and Rafales beat their F-22 up close, in India Su-30MKI mopped the floor with Typhoons, I just feel sorry for them, spending billions on poor performing aircraft.

Just imagine the look on their faces when they see 3D TVC in all its glory eating up their billion dollar toys


Who cares about their deluded fans? Results talk.....bullsh*t walks......
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lrrpf52

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Unread post02 Jul 2018, 14:51

zero-one wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:I continue to wonder what the discussions are like among fighter pilots in Russia, China, Iran, and Syria.


Thats probably how their pilots talk, but their fans have a very different conversation.

The Americans are fools for putting all their eggs in the stealth basket, advancements in radar technology and IR/Optical as well as passive EM sensors, network integrated radar sites have already rendered Stealth obsolete or at least only useful against 3rd world adversaries.

Da, just look, even poor Serbia managed to shoot down their precious Stealth aircraft, just imagine if they tried to invade us, Stealth planes would drop like flies.

This is why Sukhoi took the smart approach, instead of heavily compromising performance in the name of stealth, Sukhoi placed heavy emphasis on aircraft performance with adequate levels of Stealth and more sensors to give their Raptor no place to hide.

But what if the F-22 does manage to detect you first and shoots first.

Don't be foolish, missile shots specially BVR shots have a very poor track record, their prized Aim-54 was hyped up to be able to hit drones from extreme ranges, but in actual combat, how many has it hit? 0 from USN serviceif I remember correctly. This will just get worse with the advent of our advanced DRFM bassed jammers. Trust me we will always make it to the merge. And in there, the superior performance and highly WVR centric doctrine of our pilots will surprise them.

Yes I heard that even Typhoons and Rafales beat their F-22 up close, in India Su-30MKI mopped the floor with Typhoons, I just feel sorry for them, spending billions on poor performing aircraft.

Just imagine the look on their faces when they see 3D TVC in all its glory eating up their billion dollar toys

Roger that. That's pretty much what I've seen as well on that side of the argument.

They hope to degrade VLO capability, while leveraging their traditional approach to countermeasures so they can make it to the merge....against pilots who:

* spend twice the amount of time in the air as they do
* have a numerical superiority advantage against them
* employ the most live-tested Air-to-Air missile quiver known to man, against super maneuverable drones that employ CM
* stand on the shoulders of the 1972 15-1 kill ratio for F-4/Teaball, 104-0 kill ratio F-15/AWACS, and 77-1 for the F-16.
* have been flying your fighters for generations in a continuing technical/tactical exploitation program
* have entire wings and squadrons of aggressor/adversary Red Air to train against throughout the year

The undefeated (in allied service) F-15 and F-16 are at major disadvantages to the F-22 and F-35 WVR, if you want to retard your approach to A2A to the 3rd Generation 3.0 pre Teaball/Warning Star, which doesn't apply to F-22 and F-35 even when you eliminate electronic support aircraft.

Sounds like a real winning strategy. If your plan is to make it to the merge against the US/Allied Air Dominance Machine, you haven't learned a thing over the past 53 years. If you're the best chess player in the world, but you only have a few pawns and 2 rooks against a player you thought was lesser than you, but is the undefeated world champion chess player for the past 5 decades, and has all his places filled with bishops, rooks, and queens, you're gonna get wrecked.
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Unread post02 Jul 2018, 15:50

Actually a simple comparison of Thrust to weight ratio between the F-22 vs Su-35 and the F-35A vs the Su-30 will shut them up. 100%, 60%, 40% fuel with 6 missiles each and the 5th gens will have better numbers.

It's too simplistic, I know, but most fanboys don't know that.
True story, a Flanker fan boy once accused me of not knowing what I was talking about because my calculations for the Su-30MKI was made with 6 missiles, he said the MKI could carry 12 missiles... :roll: :roll: :roll:
So I re-calculated, this time with 12 missiles, yup he just shot himself in the leg with that one.

Then you throw in the fact that flying clean means better fluid dynamic properties all around the aircraft, resulting in superior L/D, T/D and CL values and they're toast.

Oh and sacrificing performance for Stealth? Yeah that was true for 1st generation Stealth which was based on diamond panels. But 3rd generation Stealth shows that the F-22 and F-35 were superior to their 4th generation counterparts in All kinematic metrics.

Remember that 4th generation fighters sacrificed almost everything for performance and yet 5th gen surpassed their performance while maintaining Stealth.

Thats what billions of dollars worth of research can get you. the only down side is they are expensive.
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