PAK FA vs F-22A

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Jul 2017, 23:42

[/quote]
Ah right, throwing your aircraft around drastically is what makes you win the WVR engagement. So simple and elegant.

It makes me wonder though, why the country with the biggest military research budget ever, who knew quite well about this supermaneuverability, gave priority to several other properties, almost as if they know that in the total package it is not an advantage at all, crazy right?[/quote]

Of course not. I'm not saying the F-22 won't win in WVR encounters too. I am saying nobody puts on an air display as aggressive as that SU-35 did at MAKS 2017. It's considerably more impressive than the Paris SU-35 debut, so I'm assuming they're squeezing more from it OR it was a better/more talented pilot.

For the record, I feel the Raptor isn't showing all of its tricks (post stall) at airshows. In fact, I don't even think it's close to some of the stuff it can do. Whereas I do think the Russians are pushing the SU-35 to its limits. In the realm of public demonstrations though, that SU-35 demo stood head and shoulders above the F-22's I've seen in video and in person (3 times).
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Jul 2017, 23:45

zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
There is simply no other aircraft that can throw itself around the sky/execute such drastic nose pointing maneuvers as the SU-35. Sure, you can argue about HOBS missiles, possibly better acceleration etc from US 5th gen jets, but I've seen nothing come close to the most recent SU-35 display at MAKS, I think it was. It didn't even lose altitude after performing these loops, cobra's etc. If the F-35 or F-22 can do the same, I'd love to see it.

Either the US jets can't match those maneuvers or they're holding back. I'll concede it certainly could be the latter...


This actually has more to do with aerial demonstration doctrines than actual capability.

As test pilot Jon Beesly once said, the Russian live to perform what they call "ballistic" maneuvers where the plane is affected by external factors like Gravity, wind resistance etc. with most Russian demos you'll often see Flankers get extremely slow while they execute dazzling high alpha and post stall maneuvers. Its elegant and astounding to see but has nearly zero combat relevance.

American demos on the otherhand display lots of power and precission. I have yet to see a Flanker or any aircraft replicate the max performance take off routine of the Raptor. I have yet to see any of them complete a 360 minimum radius turn in just a little over 20 seconds shortly after said takeoff, while still havy with fuel.

The powerloop is unique in that at one point it anchors the nose in one spot and the plane is actually flying tail first.

Can the Raptor tumble around in the sky? Yes it can, they demonstrated that in departure control test and the pilot was able to recover, so if they wanted they could do that in a demo because they know its safe. But why? The Raptor's whole image is that its the most powerful aircraft out there, so the demo is centered around demonstrations of power.

You see American aircraft being used by other forces with different demo doctrines and you see different things as well. I saw a Dutch F-16 doing all kinds of crazy maneuvers I didn't know the F-16 could do. The Swiss F/A-18C has a very impressive demo too. It almost looked like it had TVC at times better than any US legacy hornet demo.

Its all about demo doctrines, Americans like to drive fast and do tight high G turns, being under control at all times. Its probably the most tactically relevant in the real world but not always the best thing to look a.


OK this makes sense. I actually posted above before reading this, responding to the other poster's quote on page 2. Explains it perfectly, thanks..
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