F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

aonestudio · by **aonestudio** » 01 Aug 2019, 07:55

A U.S Air Force F-22 Raptor with the 1st Fighter Wing, Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Va., moves in to be refueled by a KC-10 Extender with the 78th Air Refueling Squadron, 514th Air Mobility Wing, over the Atlantic Ocean, Feb. 14, 2018.

zero-one · by **zero-one** » 22 Feb 2020, 16:02

A pretty well researched video on the role of modern RAM materials in reducing RCS.
It looks like RAM is playing a bigger role than it did before on RCS reductions

outlaw162 · by **outlaw162** » 22 Feb 2020, 18:03

Good video. The mitigation of creeping wave return effect may have been inadvertently referenced in this unsecure exchange:

Radar Technician: I'm having trouble with the radar, sir.
Dark Helmet: What's wrong with it?
Radar Technician: I've lost the bleeps, I've lost the sweeps, and I've lost the creeps.

preceded by:

Dark Helmet: [looking at Mr. Coffee] What's the matter with this thing, what's all that churnning and bubbling, you call that radar screen?
Colonel Sandurz: No, sir. We call it,
[slaps the machine]
Colonel Sandurz: Mr Coffee. Care for some?
[prepairs a cup for Helmet]
Dark Helmet: Yes. I always have my coffee when I watch radar, you know that.

optimist · by **optimist** » 22 Feb 2020, 22:58

Radar Technician: The radars been jammed sir.
Dark Helmet: Raspberry

disconnectedradical · by **disconnectedradical** » 28 Nov 2021, 01:04

I got a copy of Combat Aircraft September 2021, and I found this excerpt on page 29.

One experienced flying instructor said: “Raptor is definitely a Day 1 air supremacy asset (to gain the air superiority); when they push in the AOR [area of responsibility], they can provide the air picture with their super sensors to every asset involved. So beside the fact they sanitize the area, every platform is well aware of the situation and threats. The F-22 has been designed to provide the RAP [recognised air picture] to the F-15 [missile carrier/shooter and F-35 (DEAD/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences/Bomber role]. The F-22A is a real game-changer! Raptor helped to define a whole new era of air operations. It's very impressive - completely stealthy and you are unable to get a radar lock. In terms of tactics they push hard at Mach 2.5"

Commonly reported top speed is Mach 2.2 or 2.25, but I’ve heard of statement like from Paul Metz about the F-22 potentially doing 1,600 mph, probably during early flight envelope testing when they were only worried about aerodynamics and not about stealth coatings. But this is the first I heard of Mach 2.5, interesting.

https://shop.keypublishing.com/issue/Vi ... ember-2021

If you’re curious.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 28 Nov 2021, 12:33

disconnectedradical wrote:I got a copy of Combat Aircraft September 2021, and I found this excerpt on page 29.

One experienced flying instructor said: “Raptor is definitely a Day 1 air supremacy asset (to gain the air superiority); when they push in the AOR [area of responsibility], they can provide the air picture with their super sensors to every asset involved. So beside the fact they sanitize the area, every platform is well aware of the situation and threats. The F-22 has been designed to provide the RAP [recognised air picture] to the F-15 [missile carrier/shooter and F-35 (DEAD/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences/Bomber role]. The F-22A is a real game-changer! Raptor helped to define a whole new era of air operations. It's very impressive - completely stealthy and you are unable to get a radar lock. In terms of tactics they push hard at Mach 2.5"

Commonly reported top speed is Mach 2.2 or 2.25, but I’ve heard of statement like from Paul Metz about the F-22 potentially doing 1,600 mph, probably during early flight envelope testing when they were only worried about aerodynamics and not about stealth coatings. But this is the first I heard of Mach 2.5, interesting.

https://shop.keypublishing.com/issue/Vi ... ember-2021

If you’re curious.

At mach 2.5, I would think the Raptor was dashing at it's max AB. Is it really so hard to believe? I remember seeing a quote from Ret USAF Gen Jumper that he was able to supercruise the Raptor at mach 1.7.

BDF · by **BDF** » 28 Nov 2021, 16:31

charlielima223 wrote:At mach 2.5, I would think the Raptor was dashing at it's max AB. Is it really so hard to believe? I remember seeing a quote from Ret USAF Gen Jumper that he was able to supercruise the Raptor at mach 1.7.

I suspect that is a misquote or typo. It's probably M1.5. From what little info out there, from interviews etc it seems that Raptors tend to operate at M 1.5 at 50Kft-ish. Even a short dash M 2.5 is going to gobble up tons of gas. Even if they're up at 60K. My speculation anyway.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 29 Nov 2021, 13:08

BDF wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:At mach 2.5, I would think the Raptor was dashing at it's max AB. Is it really so hard to believe? I remember seeing a quote from Ret USAF Gen Jumper that he was able to supercruise the Raptor at mach 1.7.

I suspect that is a misquote or typo. It's probably M1.5. From what little info out there, from interviews etc it seems that Raptors tend to operate at M 1.5 at 50Kft-ish. Even a short dash M 2.5 is going to gobble up tons of gas. Even if they're up at 60K. My speculation anyway.

Top speed ever listed for SuperCruise was 1.82M. Other sources say 1.78. Dropped a GBU-32 from 50k @ 1.5M. Keep in mind that the 1.5/50 stat does NOT mean that the 1.78-182 are not true, just not at that altitude. no reason the faster speeds aren't relative to 36,000ft. Also, the 1.5M may be the limit of dropping JDAMs and not a thrust limit, we don't know.

disconnectedradical · by **disconnectedradical** » 29 Nov 2021, 16:46

It might be a typo, but it would be a pretty glaring one to leave in, something even the quickest reviewing will pick out. Mach 1.5 also seems routine for the F-22, so "push hard" is a bit strange to describe that. Maybe it's talking about dash speed, and I think in early envelope testing where RAM wasn't as much of a factor, the F-22 was pushed pretty fast.

BDF · by **BDF** » 29 Nov 2021, 19:18

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Top speed ever listed for SuperCruise was 1.82M. Other sources say 1.78. Dropped a GBU-32 from 50k @ 1.5M. Keep in mind that the 1.5/50 stat does NOT mean that the 1.78-182 are not true, just not at that altitude. no reason the faster speeds aren't relative to 36,000ft. Also, the 1.5M may be the limit of dropping JDAMs and not a thrust limit, we don't know.

Right. I wasn’t implying that was the top SC speed. Just what I’ve been able to piece together from the limited info out there. That was from the OCA role as opposed to ingress to a target. I suspect they prefer the higher altitude vs the 0.2-0.3 extra Mach. I’m almost positive they’d need to be down at the lower altitudes to hit those higher SC Mach numbers.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 29 Nov 2021, 21:42

BDF wrote: I suspect they prefer the higher altitude vs the 0.2-0.3 extra Mach.

100%. It's more energy to the missile for a shot, the missile starts in thinner air, and fuel burn for the Raptor is lower.

BDF · by **BDF** » 30 Nov 2021, 17:56

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:100%. It's more energy to the missile for a shot, the missile starts in thinner air, and fuel burn for the Raptor is lower.

To go full geek, I have a "modified F-22 Mod" that I use in DCS. This one actually can supercruise and has correct weights, fuel capacity etc. Its very satisfying taking 55-60nm AMRAAM shots from M1.5 at 50k. They have sooo much energy, usually arriving at the intercept over Mach 2. You'd have to be much closer to take those kind of shots in a Viper or Eagle in the game.

milosh · by **milosh** » 30 Nov 2021, 22:27

disconnectedradical wrote:I got a copy of Combat Aircraft September 2021, and I found this excerpt on page 29.

One experienced flying instructor said: “Raptor is definitely a Day 1 air supremacy asset (to gain the air superiority); when they push in the AOR [area of responsibility], they can provide the air picture with their super sensors to every asset involved. So beside the fact they sanitize the area, every platform is well aware of the situation and threats. The F-22 has been designed to provide the RAP [recognised air picture] to the F-15 [missile carrier/shooter and F-35 (DEAD/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences/Bomber role]. The F-22A is a real game-changer! Raptor helped to define a whole new era of air operations. It's very impressive - completely stealthy and you are unable to get a radar lock. In terms of tactics they push hard at Mach 2.5"

Commonly reported top speed is Mach 2.2 or 2.25, but I’ve heard of statement like from Paul Metz about the F-22 potentially doing 1,600 mph, probably during early flight envelope testing when they were only worried about aerodynamics and not about stealth coatings. But this is the first I heard of Mach 2.5, interesting.

https://shop.keypublishing.com/issue/Vi ... ember-2021

If you’re curious.

It can go faster then 2.25 problem is canopy, RAM and composites. Russians had to limit MiG31 to 1.5Mach until they start making new canopy because soviet stockpile was spend. In case of F22 with special coated canopy I doubt it can last long at something like 2.5 Mach. But if stealth isn't must how knows maybe Raptor can be used similar to Foxhound Mach 2.5 AEW but on lower altitude then Foxhound.

disconnectedradical · by **disconnectedradical** » 30 Nov 2021, 23:56

Wonder if there's a way to contact the author to clarify what he meant, and see if it was truly a typo.

disconnectedradical · by **disconnectedradical** » 29 Sep 2022, 03:49

On a side note, here’s something to consider. The 2005 design of FB-22, which would the stock F-22 fuselage and engines to lower costs but have a larger wing 3 times the size, would have max speed of Mach 1.92. So if the fuselage with a much bigger and draggier wing can do Mach 1.92, I would expect that the F-22 itself would do well over Mach 2, so Mach 2.4-2.5 may not be too far off for max dash speed.

https://www.flightglobal.com/lockheed-r ... 74.article