F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 00:13
by rhoads56
Hey all,

I know this is an old topic, but I have been curious for a long time if the F-22s RAM coatings/cockpit glass limit max speed at altitude. I've heard multiple claims that the F-22 is limited to M2.0 for that reason. I've read other posts on here that claim that the F-22 is faster than the F-15. This leads me to some confusion.

NO, I am not looking to know the F-22s max speed, I know it is still classified. But I would like to know what limitations features like RAM coatings and cockpit glass temps etc. might have on performance. I also realize that a fixed inlet doesn't necessarily mean the airplane can't accelerate past M2. Any insight on this? Thank you all!

Rhoads

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 00:23
by popcorn
There used to be a pic of a F-22 on the web with the skin ablated off it's nose and smeared all over the canopy after apparently exceeding the speed limit. Not good.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 00:34
by rhoads56
popcorn wrote:There used to be a pic of a F-22 on the web with the skin ablated off it's nose and smeared all over the canopy after apparently exceeding the speed limit. Not good.


Hey Popcorn,

Thanks for the reply. I've seen that pic, pretty crazy. I guess ultimately my question is whether the material properties of the coating itself aren't designed for speeds past Mach 2, a figure that I hear a lot.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 03:52
by wrightwing
M2 isn't the limit for durability.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 06:21
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:There used to be a pic of a F-22 on the web with the skin ablated off it's nose and smeared all over the canopy after apparently exceeding the speed limit. Not good.



Yes, but the F-22 now has a new coating. So, does that even apply anymore???

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 17:43
by rhoads56
wrightwing wrote:M2 isn't the limit for durability.


I figured it wasn't. Can you elaborate any further?

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 17:57
by wrightwing
rhoads56 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:M2 isn't the limit for durability.


I figured it wasn't. Can you elaborate any further?

The F-22 is easily capable of exceeding its design limits (i.e. it's theoretical max speed isn't thrust limited.) I can't give the exact speed, which results in damage, but I will say that it's not typically a result of speeds within its design limits. It's especially key at lower altitudes. Pilots have to throttle back, to avoid overspeeding the jet.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 01:53
by rhoads56
wrightwing wrote:
rhoads56 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:M2 isn't the limit for durability.


I figured it wasn't. Can you elaborate any further?

The F-22 is easily capable of exceeding its design limits (i.e. it's theoretical max speed isn't thrust limited.) I can't give the exact speed, which results in damage, but I will say that it's not typically a result of speeds within its design limits. It's especially key at lower altitudes. Pilots have to throttle back, to avoid overspeeding the jet.


Fair enough. Thanks for the input - awhile ago TC and scorpion1alpha mentioned that the F-22 actually has a higher top speed than the F-15...Can I get a third on that? :D

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 02:32
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The only reason it wouldn't would be the fixed inlet choking the engine above mach 2.XX

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 03:05
by wrightwing
rhoads56 wrote:


Fair enough. Thanks for the input - awhile ago TC and scorpion1alpha mentioned that the F-22 actually has a higher top speed than the F-15...Can I get a third on that? :D

A reliable source said that it's 1600+ mph, some years ago. I doubt that it would be going anywhere near that, though, as it would significantly affect the range.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 18:19
by mixelflick
At one point early on in testing, I recall reading a "red air" pilot discussing speed. Said something to the effect "we haven't seen closing speeds like this since the Foxbat/Foxhound..".

Make of that what you will. I took it to mean mach 2+, as the Foxbat/Foxhound are the only aircraft I can recall reading about reaching those speeds, particularly while loaded... Mach 1.6 was cited by an Iranian F-14 pilot, while pursing a Mig-25 flying at mach 2.3. The Eagle... most I recall reading about was mach 1.2 in Desert Storm, maybe mach 1.4 but nothing beyond that...

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 00:52
by arian
popcorn wrote:There used to be a pic of a F-22 on the web with the skin ablated off it's nose and smeared all over the canopy after apparently exceeding the speed limit. Not good.


Any picture of this? Wouldn't that be an issue with all aircraft and paints?

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 02:47
by popcorn
arian wrote:
popcorn wrote:There used to be a pic of a F-22 on the web with the skin ablated off it's nose and smeared all over the canopy after apparently exceeding the speed limit. Not good.


Any picture of this? Wouldn't that be an issue with all aircraft and paints?

Sorry, the pic can no longer be found on the web AFAIK. It was from years back. IIRC within a couple of years after IOC. A lot of material had peeled off the nose and the canopy looked like it had been sandblasted.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2017, 23:24
by disconnectedradical
wrightwing wrote:
rhoads56 wrote:


Fair enough. Thanks for the input - awhile ago TC and scorpion1alpha mentioned that the F-22 actually has a higher top speed than the F-15...Can I get a third on that? :D

A reliable source said that it's 1600+ mph, some years ago. I doubt that it would be going anywhere near that, though, as it would significantly affect the range.


I would like something more substantial than this. So far the 1600 mph figure allegedly comes from a quote from test pilot Paul Metz a TV documentary, but digging on Youtube has given no results, and this is currently second hand. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I prefer to have evidence that's more solid. If anyone can dig up the source or the original documentary it would be great.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2017, 23:34
by sferrin
disconnectedradical wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
rhoads56 wrote:


Fair enough. Thanks for the input - awhile ago TC and scorpion1alpha mentioned that the F-22 actually has a higher top speed than the F-15...Can I get a third on that? :D

A reliable source said that it's 1600+ mph, some years ago. I doubt that it would be going anywhere near that, though, as it would significantly affect the range.


I would like something more substantial than this. So far the 1600 mph figure allegedly comes from a quote from test pilot Paul Metz a TV documentary, but digging on Youtube has given no results, and this is currently second hand. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I prefer to have evidence that's more solid. If anyone can dig up the source or the original documentary it would be great.


It was almost certainly me. I was watching a show on the Discovery/History/TLC channel years ago. They were interviewing Paul Metz. In it they asked him how fast the F-22 was. He said, "It's fast. I mean it's REALLY fast. The top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 miles per hour." Tried finding the specific show several times over the years with no luck.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2017, 02:00
by popcorn

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2017, 05:40
by arian
Aren't these issues with all types of paint? If you subject them to prolonged exposure to the environment, fuel and oil, they corrode. This is normal, no?

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2017, 16:57
by mixelflick
Makes sense it applies to all types, although you could make a case the F-22 is special given is high supercruise capabilities. There has to be some operational limit, and it's likely ram coatings dictate max speed. I certainly don't get the feeling it's the engines. Either RAM coatings or the canopy, take your pick. Maybe both..

Whatever the limits are, they're far higher vs. any 4th or 4++ whatever jet. Only the PAK FA and J-20 may be in the same ballpark, but not until such time as a suitable engine gets them there. From what it sounds like, that's going to be 5-10 years, at least. And you can bet F-22 upgrades will keep it ahead of the game. One of those might be better/higher speed threshold RAM (aren't we already hearing about that?) or a new canopy - if the latter is a limiting factor...

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2017, 21:17
by arian
mixelflick wrote:Makes sense it applies to all types, although you could make a case the F-22 is special given is high supercruise capabilities.


I would think F-22 is special in that RAM paint peeling off affects it a lot more than paint peeling off a 4th gen fighter (where it is just a cosmetic issue).

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 02:29
by popcorn
arian wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Makes sense it applies to all types, although you could make a case the F-22 is special given is high supercruise capabilities.


I would think F-22 is special in that RAM paint peeling off affects it a lot more than paint peeling off a 4th gen fighter (where it is just a cosmetic issue).

I tend to concur. The F-22 pic i referenced earlier that appears to have been scrubbed from the WWW showed a deep layer of material on the nose being peeled off, not just a layer of paint.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 21:02
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:
arian wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Makes sense it applies to all types, although you could make a case the F-22 is special given is high supercruise capabilities.


I would think F-22 is special in that RAM paint peeling off affects it a lot more than paint peeling off a 4th gen fighter (where it is just a cosmetic issue).

I tend to concur. The F-22 pic i referenced earlier that appears to have been scrubbed from the WWW showed a deep layer of material on the nose being peeled off, not just a layer of paint.


Are you referring to this one or something else?

8cbe7ff227f58448d9a16e591a3829cf.jpg

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 07:45
by popcorn
Something else.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 00:57
by rhoads56
popcorn wrote:Something else.


I think this is it. I dug it up from an old thread on here from years ago.

sferrin, great pic though.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:27
by popcorn
rhoads56 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Something else.


I think this is it. I dug it up from an old thread on here from years ago.

sferrin, great pic though.

Nope, not even close... the pic I saw showed the full nose and lowered cockpit transparency. The nose surface was badly mangled like someone had taken a angle grinder to it. I assumed the whitish-grey material from the nose caused the smearing all over the transparency drastically reducing the pilot's forward view.

PS.. I've no doubt that was a valuable learning experience for all involved with the jet.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:33
by rhoads56
popcorn wrote:
rhoads56 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Something else.


I think this is it. I dug it up from an old thread on here from years ago.

sferrin, great pic though.

Nope, not even close... the pic I saw showed the full nose and lowered cockpit transparency. The nose surface was badly mangled like someone had taken a angle grinder to it. I assumed the whitish-grey material from the nose caused the smearing all over the transparency drastically reducing the pilot's forward view.


Wow. Now that I've never seen. Now I'm intrigued, though. I'll have to keep looking :wink:

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:52
by popcorn
good luck...

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 17:52
by botsing
popcorn wrote:Nope, not even close... the pic I saw showed the full nose and lowered cockpit transparency. The nose surface was badly mangled like someone had taken a angle grinder to it.

* Full nose shown: check
* Lowered cockpit transparency: check
* Badly mangled nose surface: check

Then you must mean this picture no?

img_0519.jpg


:cheers:

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 00:05
by popcorn
haha

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 21:16
by viggen
Hello all,

I remembered seeing this thread (as a lurker) from a while ago and wanted to share this article, since it was just posted and featured detailed damage shots!

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ascinating

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Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 21:52
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The nature of the damage looks very similar to the May 2017 photo up above. Interesting.

Re: F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 07:55
by aonestudio
A U.S Air Force F-22 Raptor with the 1st Fighter Wing, Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Va., moves in to be refueled by a KC-10 Extender with the 78th Air Refueling Squadron, 514th Air Mobility Wing, over the Atlantic Ocean, Feb. 14, 2018.
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