F-22/35 at Red Flag

[mixelflick]

Anyone have any insight as to how much "help" the F-22 gave the F-35 at RF??

[indigowarrior9]

In what type of terms do you define "help" mixelflick?
- Air to Air threats deflected away from the F35?
- Air to Ground threats deflected away from the F35?
- Number of sorties they flew together?
- option4?5?

The only articles I was able to find on this topic so far:
"F-35’s kill ratio with Aggressors stands at 15:1 during Red Flag 17-1 (most probably thanks to the supporting F-22…)"
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/05/f-35s-kill-ratio-with-aggressors-stands-at-151-during-red-flag-17-1-most-probably-thanks-to-the-supporting-f-22/
http://worldwarwings.com/f-35s-remarkably-high-kill-ratio-operation-red-flag/
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/28/red-flag-confirmed-f-35-dominance-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

"1 F-35A “SHOT DOWN” BY AGGRESSORS AT RED FLAG 17-01"
http://theaviationgeekclub.com/1-f-35a-shot-aggressors-red-flag-17-01/

I've not yet found any articles on the F22 kill rations on Red Flag 2017 only this one:
"How to Defeat the Air Force’s Powerful Stealth Fighter (Updated)"
https://www.wired.com/2012/07/f-22-germans/

to me it looks like they have not been published in the open.

[mixelflick]

I'd like to see how well the F-35 does without the F-22.

Why? Because for every other foreign operator, they won't have the F-22 to fly cover for it. Sure, you can make the "coalition" argument, but then again there aren't many F-22's to go around. Besides, some countries WILL be operating the F-35 without the F-22.

Think Israel..

[wrightwing]

I'd like to see how well the F-35 does without the F-22.

Why? Because for every other foreign operator, they won't have the F-22 to fly cover for it. Sure, you can make the "coalition" argument, but then again there aren't many F-22's to go around. Besides, some countries WILL be operating the F-35 without the F-22.

Think Israel..

Well, in previous exercises, without F-22s, the F-35 had 24:0, 8:0, 110:0, etc....kill ratios. The Red Flag kill ratio needs no asterisk by it, to denote F-22 assistance.

[pmi]

I'd like to see how well the F-35 does without the F-22.

Why? Because for every other foreign operator, they won't have the F-22 to fly cover for it. Sure, you can make the "coalition" argument, but then again there aren't many F-22's to go around. Besides, some countries WILL be operating the F-35 without the F-22.

Think Israel..

So you would like the the US to set up one of it's largest training rotations to simulate how one of the numerous platforms involved might be employed by a foreign military?

Do you understand what the purpose of training is?

[hythelday]

They don't even have compatible stealthy datalinks yet, how the hell is F-22 going to help F-35 with a kill? People needed to come up with some bullshite to generate more bad press and thus, clicks, hence a new myth was born.

Exercise Northern Lightning 2016 (viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52283) - F-15E got mopped by F-35A alone. Green Flag - F-35Bs no losses to SAMs, again, alone. Cenceotti comes up with a claim and people echo it like they ate 43 spiders in their sleep

[mixelflick]

I'd like to see how well the F-35 does without the F-22.

Why? Because for every other foreign operator, they won't have the F-22 to fly cover for it. Sure, you can make the "coalition" argument, but then again there aren't many F-22's to go around. Besides, some countries WILL be operating the F-35 without the F-22.

Think Israel..

So you would like the the US to set up one of it's largest training rotations to simulate how one of the numerous platforms involved might be employed by a foreign military?

Do you understand what the purpose of training is?

I do, but I didn't say anything about setting up a Red Flag for said purpose - did I? You may have taken it that way, which was an incorrect assumption. In fact, by finishing with the example of "Think Israel" I was thinking anything but Red Flag. Please don't make assumptions. I only want the truth, and will happily follow that wherever it leads..

I think the F-35 will prove to be a great platform. Seeing the F-15 lambasted early as too big, too complex etc only to see it the most successful air to air bird in history taught me a few things. Most telling to me was the graphic here someone posted of pilot opinions about which plane they'd like to fly given certain scenarios. It was almost unanimous: The F-35 was far and away the preferred choice.

Pilots are notoriously defensive about their current mounts. To me, that graphic really said a LOT...

[wrightwing]

The truth is that the F-35 kicked Red Air a$$, without needing other planes to protect it.

[pmi]

I do, but I didn't say anything about setting up a Red Flag for said purpose - did I? You may have taken it that way, which was an incorrect assumption. In fact, by finishing with the example of "Think Israel" I was thinking anything but Red Flag. Please don't make assumptions.

You were speaking directly about the conditions at Red Flag.

If you want to be clear, then be clear. Tell us exactly what you would like to see. Where? Paid for whom? To accomplish what?

I only want the truth, and will happily follow that wherever it leads..

In my experience when people get on the "I want the truth" kick it's because the available data doesn't support their preconceived beliefs.

[madrat]

Broken down by manufacturer it's probably pretty similar Lockhart:Boeing ratios.

[mixelflick]

I do, but I didn't say anything about setting up a Red Flag for said purpose - did I? You may have taken it that way, which was an incorrect assumption. In fact, by finishing with the example of "Think Israel" I was thinking anything but Red Flag. Please don't make assumptions.

You were speaking directly about the conditions at Red Flag.

If you want to be clear, then be clear. Tell us exactly what you would like to see. Where? Paid for whom? To accomplish what?

I only want the truth, and will happily follow that wherever it leads..

In my experience when people get on the "I want the truth" kick it's because the available data doesn't support their preconceived beliefs.

F-35's tasked with destroying a fixed or movable target, without F-22's and a heavy S-300/400 presence coupled with late model Flanker red air. Could the F-35's make it in to destroy the target? Could they elude/defeat the SU-35's? I don't expect this to go down at Red Flag, because for all I know we have no S-300/400 or SU-35 equivalents..

If we do, then by all means host it at a red flag exercise. What would this tell us? If they were successful, it'd tell every other F-35 operator they don't need F-22/Typhoon escorts. If they're not successful, it's going to require that country with F-35's to invest further in Typhoon's/something else to fly top cover.

LM is pretty bold in stating the F-35 can hold its own with anything else air to air. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's all I'm saying...

[hornetfinn]

F-35's tasked with destroying a fixed or movable target, without F-22's and a heavy S-300/400 presence coupled with late model Flanker red air. Could the F-35's make it in to destroy the target? Could they elude/defeat the SU-35's? I don't expect this to go down at Red Flag, because for all I know we have no S-300/400 or SU-35 equivalents..

If we do, then by all means host it at a red flag exercise. What would this tell us? If they were successful, it'd tell every other F-35 operator they don't need F-22/Typhoon escorts. If they're not successful, it's going to require that country with F-35's to invest further in Typhoon's/something else to fly top cover.

LM is pretty bold in stating the F-35 can hold its own with anything else air to air. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's all I'm saying...

USA has pretty late model S-300 for training use along with SA-11, SA-15, SA-8 etc. http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=pacific-air-over-alaska.

Besides USA has huge amount of Patriot missile systems which are very similar to S-300/400 systems except for the very long range missiles (which could be simulated easily). Then USA has AEGIS and SM-2/3/6 systems which is far more capable IADS system than any other system in existence. I'd say F-15 can do pretty good Sukhoi imitation (except for maybe some high AoA stuff), although latest upgrades give it superior avionics (AESA, IRST21 etc) and superior weapons. I don't think Russian systems would really give anything in terms of performance than these systems.

[wrightwing]

I do, but I didn't say anything about setting up a Red Flag for said purpose - did I? You may have taken it that way, which was an incorrect assumption. In fact, by finishing with the example of "Think Israel" I was thinking anything but Red Flag. Please don't make assumptions.

You were speaking directly about the conditions at Red Flag.

If you want to be clear, then be clear. Tell us exactly what you would like to see. Where? Paid for whom? To accomplish what?

I only want the truth, and will happily follow that wherever it leads..

In my experience when people get on the "I want the truth" kick it's because the available data doesn't support their preconceived beliefs.

F-35's tasked with destroying a fixed or movable target, without F-22's and a heavy S-300/400 presence coupled with late model Flanker red air. Could the F-35's make it in to destroy the target? Could they elude/defeat the SU-35's? I don't expect this to go down at Red Flag, because for all I know we have no S-300/400 or SU-35 equivalents..

If we do, then by all means host it at a red flag exercise. What would this tell us? If they were successful, it'd tell every other F-35 operator they don't need F-22/Typhoon escorts. If they're not successful, it's going to require that country with F-35's to invest further in Typhoon's/something else to fly top cover.

LM is pretty bold in stating the F-35 can hold its own with anything else air to air. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's all I'm saying...

S300/400 (along with other modern threat SAMs) and late model Flankers were being simulated in the most recent Red Flag.

[quicksilver]

"LM is pretty bold in stating the F-35 can hold its own with anything else air to air."

Pay closer attention. The US government has said it; Carlisle, Bogdan, Davis, and many others.

[mixelflick]

"LM is pretty bold in stating the F-35 can hold its own with anything else air to air."

Pay closer attention. The US government has said it; Carlisle, Bogdan, Davis, and many others.

I sure hope it's true then. The fact it did well (very well), is encouraging. I'd just like to see if that holds true without the F-22, that's all. But if budget constraints preclude that, I suppose some other nation (likely Israel) will find out soon enough. An Israeli raid on Iran's nuclear reactors would be interesting. In addition to advanced SAM's, the F-35 would have to evade/down Iranian F-14's.

Although you'd expect that, it would really be something. We might even have a more heated thread than the F-14 vs. F-22 fiasco, LOL...