Combat aircraft F-22 Pilot : "60,000ft, cruising at mach 2"

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mixelflick

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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 15:12

That was the gist of it. I re-read it 3 times to make sure I wasn't seeing things and in fact, the quote is spiked out in large print from the rest of the story. Oh, he added "invisible" too :)

We've all seen the "cruised at greater than 1.72 mach" quote. We've heard about mach 1.8 supercruise. But this was the first time I've seen an F-22 pilot on record saying mach 2.0 super-cruise.

Information? Disinformation??

Would love to hear your opinions...
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 16:47

mixelflick wrote:Would love to hear your opinions...


Would love to have a link :mrgreen:
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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 18:39

Damn. It was a point of sale/Barnes and Noble thing.

It's there though, clear as day. Paraphrasing.. "Cruising at 60,000 feet at mach 2 and being invisible, the enemy knows we're superior in air to air...". Article profiled the FF unit at Langley and touched on all facets of Raptor. Even the maintenance guys and how they've come up with creative solutions for the jets self diagnosis function.

So mach 2, yeah. As engines grow in power and the Raptor's been operational for a decade now, not too difficult to believe. Poor Ruskies. The comrade in charge of the PAK FA's 2nd stage engine probably just doubled his vodka intake. Lotta pressure on that fella... :mrgreen:

WAIT! Here it is, including the quote!!

http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/12/0 ... ary-issue/

‘Cruising around in an invisible jet at 60,000ft flying at Mach 2, our adversaries know we’re pretty good at the air-to-air game’, says Col Pete ‘Coach’ Fesler, commander of the 1st Fighter Wing (FW). Ole' Pete wouldn't steer us wrong, would he? :)
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les_paul59

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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 18:46

How do you have time to think cruising at mach 2 lol....it seems like the russians are a little farther behind with the engines than we thought
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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 18:52

"Cruising around" at mach 2 is quite different from "Flying around at M1.5 in supercruise" (in the same link). I don't think the M2 was done without afterburner, but he is amazed because the Eagle cannot gt that high/fast.
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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 21:17

Doesn't the mach # change at various altitudes? The actual indicated airspeed is different then the mach #? The F-22 at altitude max. speed, maneuvering, stealth and SA, if you know they are there you better run.
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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 22:42

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:"Cruising around" at mach 2 is quite different from "Flying around at M1.5 in supercruise" (in the same link). I don't think the M2 was done without afterburner, but he is amazed because the Eagle cannot gt that high/fast.



There another quote on this board somewhere from years ago, from a pilot talking about bombing things from Mach 1.9 and 60,000 feet. (Course the B-58 did that everyday. 8) )
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Unread post02 Feb 2017, 00:40

This is old news at this point. The quote itself is many years old. So it's fairly well known but still impressive everytime one hears it.

Yes the higher the altitude the slower the 'speed of sound' becomes. So while the Mach value may be higher the actual absolute speed is dependent.

Apparently the PW F-119 maintains both its power and efficiency at high altitude and yes, allows for near Mach 2 supercruise.

Years back, one of the first F-22 squadron and later wing commanders, callsign "Dozer", would frequent aviation forums and entertain questions and confirmed unequivocally that the Raptor is a Mach 2 class aircraft. And that that means Mach 2+

Furthermore, he basically said the engines produce more thrust than the airframe can handle without damage. And this is more a limiting factor in terms of operational speed than any lack of power. Which isn't an issue.

He basically hinted that if not careful, an F-22 pilot could damage and or tear the airframe due to excessive speed since enough friction/heat/loading/forces can be generated to damage the RAM/skin and or warp/stress the airframe structure. This was a happy surprise to say the least!

And finally the F-22 also has no problem gaining and maintaining altitude up and over 65K, again according to Dozer. He estimated somewhere in the 70-75K range as far as aircraft operational ceiling goes.

However the lack of a pressure suit limits the ceiling to around 63,000 during peace time/non emergency operations, as any loss of cockpit pressure above that altitude could kill the pilot via the bends.

So along with the original wing root IRST system, radar cheek arrays and helmet mounted display, we can add a pressure suit to our wish list for how to make the Raptor even more deadly/impressive.
Last edited by PhillyGuy on 02 Feb 2017, 01:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post02 Feb 2017, 01:02

Wow! Thank you..
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PhillyGuy

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Unread post02 Feb 2017, 01:57

mixelflick wrote:Wow! Thank you..


My pleasure man. Opened my eyes when I saw him say it way back when.

Especially since back then all of the 'plasma stealth' Russian fan boys were mocking the Raptor for its almost pedestrian quoted top speed of 'Mach 1.8'. When in fact really nothing can keep up with the F-22 over time and distance due to its superb design and tech giving it amazing capabilities. The energy/maneuver envelope of it as well is second to none. Funny as at the time is was not considered a good 'dog fighter' or even nimble, and people were skeptical of how good it was/would be in all possible situations.

Yet here the Raptor is "invisible", can outrun and outlast just about anything tactical and can turn inside its own a$$.

Another thing to keep in mind is the energy imparted on munitions when they are launched from that high up and going that fast. JDAMs, SDBs, AIM-120s etc... will all have more range and speed (force/energy) when employed from an F-22 super cruising at altitude than another aircraft going subsonic/slower at a lower ceiling.

There are no exact figures but anywhere from a 30 to 50% greater employment/engagement envelope has been quoted as possible for missiles and bombs due to the Raptors phenomenal kinematic capabilities. So if the 120D has a 100 mile range lets say, it would be substantially more for the F-22, and same for the JDAM etc. making it that much easier to attack enemy targets from outside of their detection and engagement envelope and that much harder for them to threaten the Raptor.

If only it could carry more missiles and bombs, range is not really an issue as the USAF is the best in the world at running tanker ops.


OH, another funny little story from Dozer. He told us that one day, fairly early in his career as a Raptor driver when he still did not know what it was fully capable of as he had not had the opportunity to tested it out, he found himself ready for take off at a particular airbase with no other traffic and a fairly high ceiling clearance. So he decided to see what a fully loaded (fuel/weapons) bird could do in an almost unrestricted climb.
Being used to the F-15C he said he expected the F-22 to level out somewhere just north of 30-35K in a vertical climb/profile. So he gunned it.
And in the rush of it all he did not notice that not only was the Raptor still gaining speed when he thought he was slowing down, but that for almost the equivalent duration of time that it takes an Eagle to level out around 30 thousand feet he had reached nearly 60,000 feet in the F-22 and was still climbing and hovering near going supersonic, by mistake almost breaking his cleared ceiling for the day and having to do a last second maneuver to level out.

Needless to say the Raptor is a ROCKET. And that 35K class thrust figure for the 119s is definitely closer to 37-39000.
I wish one of these days the Air Force does a streak eagle on it and officially breaks some records, but probably not until we're all much much older and something better has come online first.

Anyway, cheers.
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Unread post02 Feb 2017, 02:30

IIRC Dozer also hinted at testing the jet's potential in a zoom climb in the cold dense Alaskan air. Don't know if he ever indulged himself though.
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mixelflick

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Unread post03 Feb 2017, 15:37

PhillyGuy wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Wow! Thank you..


My pleasure man. Opened my eyes when I saw him say it way back when.

Especially since back then all of the 'plasma stealth' Russian fan boys were mocking the Raptor for its almost pedestrian quoted top speed of 'Mach 1.8'. When in fact really nothing can keep up with the F-22 over time and distance due to its superb design and tech giving it amazing capabilities. The energy/maneuver envelope of it as well is second to none. Funny as at the time is was not considered a good 'dog fighter' or even nimble, and people were skeptical of how good it was/would be in all possible situations.

Yet here the Raptor is "invisible", can outrun and outlast just about anything tactical and ca
Another thing to keep in mind is the energy imparted on munitions when they are launched from that high up and going that fast. JDAMs, SDBs, AIM-120s etc... will all have more range and speed (force/energy) when employed from an F-22 super cruising at altitude than another aircraft going subsonic/slower at a lower ceiling.


There are no exact figures but anywhere from a 30 to 50% greater employment/engagement envelope has been quoted as possible for missiles and bombs due to the Raptors phenomenal kinematic capabilities. So if the 120D has a 100 mile range lets say, it would be substantially more for the F-22, and same for the JDAM etc. making it that much easier to attack enemy targets from outside of their detection and engagement envelope and that much harder for them to threaten the Raptor.

If only it could carry more missiles and bombs, range is not really an issue as the USAF is the best in the world at running tanker ops.


OH, another funny little story from Dozer. He told us that one day, fairly early in his career as a Raptor driver when he still did not know what it was fully capable of as he had not had the opportunity to tested it out, he found himself ready for take off at a particular airbase with no other traffic and a fairly high ceiling clearance. So he decided to see what a fully loaded (fuel/weapons) bird could do in an almost unrestricted climb.
Being used to the F-15C he said he expected the F-22 to level out somewhere just north of 30-35K in a vertical climb/profile. So he gunned it.
And in the rush of it all he did not notice that not only was the Raptor still gaining speed when he thought he was slowing down, but that for almost the equivalent duration of time that it takes an Eagle to level out around 30 thousand feet he had reached nearly 60,000 feet in the F-22 and was still climbing and hovering near going supersonic, by mistake almost breaking his cleared ceiling for the day and having to do a last second maneuver to level out.

Needless to say the Raptor is a ROCKET. And that 35K class thrust figure for the 119s is definitely closer to 37-39000.
I wish one of these days the Air Force does a streak eagle on it and officially breaks some records, but probably not until we're all much much older and something better has come online first.

Anyway, cheers.


Thanks for sharing, that really is amazing. And with so much still classified, it must be giving the Russians fits as to how good PAK FA really needs to be. If they under-estimate they'll wind up with an inferior machine. If they over-estimate/over-engineer they'll just add cost.

The Raptor truly is our ace in the hole. Sure there are precious few of them, but reports of F-35 15-1 air to air kill ratios bode well. And there will be literally thousands of them across the globe..
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Unread post03 Feb 2017, 21:16

I think in context, he may just be using "cruising" in the colloquial sense, not necessarily in the aeronautical sense of "at best distance-to-fuel speed and altitude" nor "supercruise" as in "while not using afterburners". Perhaps the F-22 can reach it, but I wouldn't hold this as strong evidence for it.
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Unread post04 Feb 2017, 23:16

strykerxo wrote:Doesn't the mach # change at various altitudes? The actual indicated airspeed is different then the mach #? The F-22 at altitude max. speed, maneuvering, stealth and SA, if you know they are there you better run.


Mach stays pretty much the same above 35,000ft until something like 70,000ft, then it starts going back up. A F-22 at 60k ft doing Mach 2 is doing pretty much the same speed as one at 35k ft.
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Unread post06 Feb 2017, 03:35

sferrin wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:"Cruising around" at mach 2 is quite different from "Flying around at M1.5 in supercruise" (in the same link). I don't think the M2 was done without afterburner, but he is amazed because the Eagle cannot gt that high/fast.



There another quote on this board somewhere from years ago, from a pilot talking about bombing things from Mach 1.9 and 60,000 feet. (Course the B-58 did that everyday. 8) )


So did basically the Concorde (without the bombing part of course) :)
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