Raptor and PAK FA

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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madrat

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Unread post06 Jan 2017, 05:28

hythelday wrote:Who says anything about US and Sidewinder?
South African Air Force used R550 Magic along with it's indigenous spin off developments.

Matra R550 Magic, in production 10 years earlier than R-73.
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R-73:
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I really wonder where the Vympel guys got their inspiration from...


Kukri V3B is obviously somewhere between both designs...
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The South Africans claim to have invented helmet-cued missile targeting.
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Jan 2017, 18:11

Barring some incredible new breakthrough in Russia, the Raptor will be on top through 2030. And by no small margin..

At least air force leadership seems to realized they need to keep the F-22 relevant (via upgrades). I was heartened to hear that. The 9x is already here, and there's talk of a HMS (Scorpion?) by 2020 I recall. I still can't figure out if she has the AIM-120D. Thought other aircraft were getting it first maybe?

I'd be most interested in an engine upgrade with more thrust, but unsure as to how much growth the F-119 has? Perhaps more important would be a less thirsty engine. That would allow it to operate in the South China sea area more effectively. From where I'm standing, range is the only thing PAK FA is going to have on the Raptor.

If it gets the engines they need, that could lead to a much larger supercruise envelope. Something that'd bode well for it in that theater..
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Unread post06 Jan 2017, 19:40

I don't disagree arian, but you forgot something, or maybe you don't know it.
Why the Israelis were so successful...???
Because on August 18th 1966, 10 months before the 6 days war, they managed to posses a defected Iraqi MiG21...
The IAF had a unique opportunity to train against MiG21, and develop tactics. That's why they destroyed so many MiGs during the six days war, and of course the ambush which popcorn posted.
take a look below, approximately at 24:00... :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMT4q5OaQBw
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arian

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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 00:11

geokav wrote:I don't disagree arian, but you forgot something, or maybe you don't know it.
Why the Israelis were so successful...???
Because on August 18th 1966, 10 months before the 6 days war, they managed to posses a defected Iraqi MiG21...
The IAF had a unique opportunity to train against MiG21, and develop tactics. That's why they destroyed so many MiGs during the six days war, and of course the ambush which popcorn posted.
take a look below, approximately at 24:00... :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMT4q5OaQBw


Of course I know that, but it doesn't change anything either. If the Israelis had an advantage over Arab pilots because of that, then they also had an advantage on Soviet pilots because of it.

My point was that the US in that time period had seen its airplanes, missiles, training and everything else so thoroughly defeat Soviet-made and other's (Argentina) systems in combat that it is understandable why the US cancelled many of its AAM projects and decided to take it easy for a while. 100+ enemy planes shot down in the course of 1 year (1982) at 0 losses and with missiles demonstrating 80% pk. Take a vacation at that point.
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PhillyGuy

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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 05:04

mixelflick wrote:Barring some incredible new breakthrough in Russia, the Raptor will be on top through 2030. And by no small margin..

At least air force leadership seems to realized they need to keep the F-22 relevant (via upgrades). I was heartened to hear that. The 9x is already here, and there's talk of a HMS (Scorpion?) by 2020 I recall. I still can't figure out if she has the AIM-120D. Thought other aircraft were getting it first maybe?

I'd be most interested in an engine upgrade with more thrust, but unsure as to how much growth the F-119 has? Perhaps more important would be a less thirsty engine. That would allow it to operate in the South China sea area more effectively. From where I'm standing, range is the only thing PAK FA is going to have on the Raptor.

If it gets the engines they need, that could lead to a much larger supercruise envelope. Something that'd bode well for it in that theater..


The AIM-120D has been physically cleared for use on the F-22, but they are not being carried because I believe the D version either cannot be integrated into the Raptor's combat system/or is being withheld from integration until the F-22s are upgraded to the Increment 3.2B standard/version. This software upgrade is either finishing testing or has already done so and is scheduled for deployment on the Raptor fleet sometime this year (2017).

It's hard to find exact plans and dates about any helmet system, if they exist at all, but yeah all of the open source reporting states some sort of development is going on with an eye toward fielding something around 2020. Although Raptor pilots say it is not that big of a priority and would not be a game changer, it would offer additional capability and advantages and they would like to have it because it will be helpful.

The F-22 is also getting Link 16 transmit capability with the 3.2B upgrade as right now it only has receive capacity. PW was awarded a big a$$ contract worth several hundred million dollars to do work on the F-119s but open source only cites spare parts and maintenance, nothing about 'upgrades' or new versions of the engine etc... Either this is not a priority because the F-119 is a beast and has excess thrust/runs as efficiently as it possibly can, or they are dropping the ball because almost all fighters have gotten engine upgrades at this equivalent length of time that the Raptor has been in operation (12 years and counting now). So we'll see.

I feel the most important thing is they maintain the EM signature of the jet and over time improve it and work on the aircraft's sensors and internal software/combat systems, which they are doing. Because new engines or not, it is not outrunning an SA-20 missile if it gets locked on to.
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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 05:33

madrat wrote:Kukri V3B is obviously somewhere between both designs...
Image
The South Africans claim to have invented helmet-cued missile targeting.


Not unless they beat the US AIM-95 back in the early 70s.

220px-Lt_Ayers_and_prototype_AIM-95_1970.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-95_Agile
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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 15:39

new engines is the last thing the raptor needs. It's already the best kinetic performing aircraft in the world, outside of pure top speed. The helmet is also just window dressing, the raptor's don't fight close and if they do want to get close they will get within 1,000 feet on your six and just gun you down.

There is no traditional dog fighting with the raptor.
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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 19:47

PhillyGuy wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Barring some incredible new breakthrough in Russia, the Raptor will be on top through 2030. And by no small margin..

At least air force leadership seems to realized they need to keep the F-22 relevant (via upgrades). I was heartened to hear that. The 9x is already here, and there's talk of a HMS (Scorpion?) by 2020 I recall. I still can't figure out if she has the AIM-120D. Thought other aircraft were getting it first maybe?

I'd be most interested in an engine upgrade with more thrust, but unsure as to how much growth the F-119 has? Perhaps more important would be a less thirsty engine. That would allow it to operate in the South China sea area more effectively. From where I'm standing, range is the only thing PAK FA is going to have on the Raptor.

If it gets the engines they need, that could lead to a much larger supercruise envelope. Something that'd bode well for it in that theater..


The AIM-120D has been physically cleared for use on the F-22, but they are not being carried because I believe the D version either cannot be integrated into the Raptor's combat system/or is being withheld from integration until the F-22s are upgraded to the Increment 3.2B standard/version. This software upgrade is either finishing testing or has already done so and is scheduled for deployment on the Raptor fleet sometime this year (2017).

It's hard to find exact plans and dates about any helmet system, if they exist at all, but yeah all of the open source reporting states some sort of development is going on with an eye toward fielding something around 2020. Although Raptor pilots say it is not that big of a priority and would not be a game changer, it would offer additional capability and advantages and they would like to have it because it will be helpful.

The F-22 is also getting Link 16 transmit capability with the 3.2B upgrade as right now it only has receive capacity. PW was awarded a big a$$ contract worth several hundred million dollars to do work on the F-119s but open source only cites spare parts and maintenance, nothing about 'upgrades' or new versions of the engine etc... Either this is not a priority because the F-119 is a beast and has excess thrust/runs as efficiently as it possibly can, or they are dropping the ball because almost all fighters have gotten engine upgrades at this equivalent length of time that the Raptor has been in operation (12 years and counting now). So we'll see.

I feel the most important thing is they maintain the EM signature of the jet and over time improve it and work on the aircraft's sensors and internal software/combat systems, which they are doing. Because new engines or not, it is not outrunning an SA-20 missile if it gets locked on to.


Thank you. Much appreciated!

The Raptor with AIM-120D, wow. Will be interesting to see how the pilots comment vs. 9x integration. I know they can't say too much, but just throwing us a bone would be nice LOL
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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 20:37

les_paul59 wrote:new engines is the last thing the raptor needs. It's already the best kinetic performing aircraft in the world, outside of pure top speed. The helmet is also just window dressing, the raptor's don't fight close and if they do want to get close they will get within 1,000 feet on your six and just gun you down.

There is no traditional dog fighting with the raptor.


Raptor pilots have said that they may get into dogfights once they run out of radar guided missiles (see the video "future dogfights" on YouTube). Yes it's unlikely current enemy jets will get to the merge, but it is still a scenario they train for. In the future, adversaries may get better aircraft that have a better chance of making it to a WVR battle. Fortunately, the Raptor is probably the best dogfighter there is and would be even more lethal with an HMD.
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Unread post07 Jan 2017, 21:48

Sure they train for every scenario but the raptors don't ever have to be seen if they don't want to
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Unread post08 Jan 2017, 01:01

1973 USN. The South Africans were the first to put it into use, sure, but not the first to develop it.

Image

icemaverick wrote:Raptor pilots have said that they may get into dogfights once they run out of radar guided missiles (see the video "future dogfights" on YouTube). Yes it's unlikely current enemy jets will get to the merge, but it is still a scenario they train for. In the future, adversaries may get better aircraft that have a better chance of making it to a WVR battle. Fortunately, the Raptor is probably the best dogfighter there is and would be even more lethal with an HMD.


Getting WVR won't necessarily mean "dog-fighting" in the maneuvering around sort of sense. Lots of air-air kills in the last 2 decades have happened technically WVR, but as far as I am aware there has not been any sort of dog-fighting in the traditional sense (other than some stories of EF-111 pilots trying to shake pursuing Iraqi Mirages).

Situational awareness, as in the pilot with the sensors that keep constant track of the enemy and target him, is likley to still be the determining factor in WVR.

Think MiG-29s vs. F-15/16 in Serbia. Most of those kills happened WVR (if I recall correctly), but one guy knew what was going on and was in control of the situation, the other guy had no idea what was happening around him.

Of course WVR doesn't mean that you're now within the engagement envelope of an AIM-9X or R-73 or other such missiles. AIM-120 is still going to be the main weapon for most such engagements.
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Unread post08 Jan 2017, 01:42

PhillyGuy wrote:Either this is not a priority because the F-119 is a beast and has excess thrust/runs as efficiently as it possibly can, or they are dropping the ball because almost all fighters have gotten engine upgrades at this equivalent length of time that the Raptor has been in operation (12 years and counting now).


I think "almost all" is a stretch. The F-15Cs haven't and in fact their current engines produces less thrust than those they entered service with. The Tomcats never did. No, the F110 wasn't an "upgrade" so much as it was FINALLY almost giving it the power it was suppose to enter service with. (The F401 was more powerful than the F110 variant in the F-14. 28k vs 27k for the F110). Typically aircraft that get engine upgrades do so because they've gained weight (F-16, F-4, F-104, F/A-18, etc.)
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Unread post09 Jan 2017, 19:15

I always wondered why the F-15 didn't have a higher thrust engine. Asked an F-15 pilot once at an airshow and he said they tested more powerful motors but for some reason didn't install them?

I did NOT get the feeling it was budget related. Anyone here know why?
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Unread post09 Jan 2017, 19:28

mixelflick wrote:I always wondered why the F-15 didn't have a higher thrust engine. Asked an F-15 pilot once at an airshow and he said they tested more powerful motors but for some reason didn't install them?

I did NOT get the feeling it was budget related. Anyone here know why?

Because once upon a time they were going to be 1:1 replaced with Raptors.
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Unread post11 Jan 2017, 16:57

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I always wondered why the F-15 didn't have a higher thrust engine. Asked an F-15 pilot once at an airshow and he said they tested more powerful motors but for some reason didn't install them?

I did NOT get the feeling it was budget related. Anyone here know why?

Because once upon a time they were going to be 1:1 replaced with Raptors.


OK, but now that that isn't the case (and hasn't been, for years)... why not look at something with 30-32,000lbs of thrust per engine? Budget related??
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