More F-22's could really happen?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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condor1970

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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 01:57

You know, I honestly thought a certain career politician was going to win the 2016 election. But, that person didn't. So, not only do we have a President that claims to be very concerned about the state of our military, but both houses of Congress still in Republican hands.

Now, the President elect has stated openly he wants to rebuild the military and upgrade everything, because our F-15's are decades old. He even made mention that many aircraft scavenge parts from the boneyard. Not because it is a cheap way to get parts, but because many companies just don't make them anymore.

Since the Air Force has been ordered to look at what it would take to restart the F-22 program, is it actually possible now for Lockheed to restart the program with an updated and more advance F-22?
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durahawk

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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 02:31

condor1970 wrote:You know, I honestly thought a certain career politician was going to win the 2016 election. But, that person didn't. So, not only do we have a President that claims to be very concerned about the state of our military, but both houses of Congress still in Republican hands.

Now, the President elect has stated openly he wants to rebuild the military and upgrade everything, because our F-15's are decades old. He even made mention that many aircraft scavenge parts from the boneyard. Not because it is a cheap way to get parts, but because many companies just don't make them anymore.

Since the Air Force has been ordered to look at what it would take to restart the F-22 program, is it actually possible now for Lockheed to restart the program with an updated and more advance F-22?


It is certainly possible if you throw enough money at it... the Russians are doing it with the TU-160.

That being said, I don't think it would be money well spent. I think it would be better to accelerate development funding for a 5.5 Gen AETD-powered Penetrating Counter Air concept. New airframe, but leverage the F-35 sensors and software maturity to the fullest extent possible.

The F-22 is an unstoppable force, but I believe the era of the short ranged tactical fighter is coming to a close.
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smsgtmac

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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 02:41

condor1970 wrote:You know, I honestly thought a certain career politician was going to win the 2016 election. But, that person didn't. So, not only do we have a President that claims to be very concerned about the state of our military, but both houses of Congress still in Republican hands.

Now, the President elect has stated openly he wants to rebuild the military and upgrade everything, because our F-15's are decades old. He even made mention that many aircraft scavenge parts from the boneyard. Not because it is a cheap way to get parts, but because many companies just don't make them anymore.

Since the Air Force has been ordered to look at what it would take to restart the F-22 program, is it actually possible now for Lockheed to restart the program with an updated and more advance F-22?


No.
Nope.
Not even possible without redesigning certain things within that would make it a major development program and new production pipeline and system.
Trump made his comments about the F-35 before he was getting the security briefings or knew sh*t about the F-35 except what he read in the junk press (Murray Gel-Mann Amnesia Effect anyone?).
But I do expect F-35 tech to eventually show up in F-22 airframes. Possibly more sooner than later.
--The ultimate weapon is the mind of man.
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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 03:30

durahawk wrote:
condor1970 wrote:You know, I honestly thought a certain career politician was going to win the 2016 election. But, that person didn't. So, not only do we have a President that claims to be very concerned about the state of our military, but both houses of Congress still in Republican hands.

Now, the President elect has stated openly he wants to rebuild the military and upgrade everything, because our F-15's are decades old. He even made mention that many aircraft scavenge parts from the boneyard. Not because it is a cheap way to get parts, but because many companies just don't make them anymore.

Since the Air Force has been ordered to look at what it would take to restart the F-22 program, is it actually possible now for Lockheed to restart the program with an updated and more advance F-22?


It is certainly possible if you throw enough money at it... the Russians are doing it with the TU-160.

That being said, I don't think it would be money well spent. I think it would be better to accelerate development funding for a 5.5 Gen AETD-powered Penetrating Counter Air concept. New airframe, but leverage the F-35 sensors and software maturity to the fullest extent possible.

The F-22 is an unstoppable force, but I believe the era of the short ranged tactical fighter is coming to a close.


As long as your enemies can deploy and swarm skies with deadly WVR fighters ( aka Sukhoi 3x) then the successor of the F15 HAS to be a dominant a2a machine both in WVR and BVR.

IIRC when the US military talked about the next generation fighter,they said it would be something already tested, easier to produce, ahead of the curve technologically but yet not revolutionary, or at least, as pioneering like the F22 back in the days.

Safe to assume: review the F22 project, improve the frame here and there, fill it up with F35 tech and materials,call it "eftwentytwototallynew" and be done with it.

Let's be honest tho: what it really matters is that the next bird will feature 2 F135 fw100 because thrust is never enough.
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popcorn

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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 04:10

The deadline for the AF to submits it's report to Congress on a potential F-22 restart is NewYear's Day. Really no enthusiasm among the brass and civilian leadership for the idea so adjust expectations accordingly. Unless someone convinces Trump it's a good idea then all bets are off.
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durahawk

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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 14:32

nutshell wrote:As long as your enemies can deploy and swarm skies with deadly WVR fighters ( aka Sukhoi 3x) then the successor of the F15 HAS to be a dominant a2a machine both in WVR and BVR.

IIRC when the US military talked about the next generation fighter,they said it would be something already tested, easier to produce, ahead of the curve technologically but yet not revolutionary, or at least, as pioneering like the F22 back in the days.

Safe to assume: review the F22 project, improve the frame here and there, fill it up with F35 tech and materials,call it "eftwentytwototallynew" and be done with it.

Let's be honest tho: what it really matters is that the next bird will feature 2 F135 fw100 because thrust is never enough.


Avoiding fighting on your enemy's terms while forcing the enemy aircraft to fight on yours has been a foundational tenet of air to air combat since it's inception. Just because the 4+ gen Sukhois are lethal WVR does not mean we need to follow suit. (This of course assuming the airshow backflips have operational utility to begin with, or that getting that slow in an actual dogfight won't get your brains drilled out.) The F-22 won't be WVR with the Sukhois until it's out of Fox 3's.

By all means leverage F-22 and F-35 development and technology to the maximum extent, but if your forced to tweak the airframe anyways, you might as well give it greater range and payload while you are at it to meet PCA requirements. This may entail backing off some of the 9G WVR capabilities.
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Unread post02 Dec 2016, 15:57

popcorn wrote:The deadline for the AF to submits it's report to Congress on a potential F-22 restart is NewYear's Day.


I assume that Congress (like every national assembly) will be on a several week holiday soon?

Has anyone heard any murmurs on this being published sooner?
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Unread post03 Dec 2016, 06:34

durahawk wrote:
nutshell wrote:As long as your enemies can deploy and swarm skies with deadly WVR fighters ( aka Sukhoi 3x) then the successor of the F15 HAS to be a dominant a2a machine both in WVR and BVR.

IIRC when the US military talked about the next generation fighter,they said it would be something already tested, easier to produce, ahead of the curve technologically but yet not revolutionary, or at least, as pioneering like the F22 back in the days.

Safe to assume: review the F22 project, improve the frame here and there, fill it up with F35 tech and materials,call it "eftwentytwototallynew" and be done with it.

Let's be honest tho: what it really matters is that the next bird will feature 2 F135 fw100 because thrust is never enough.


Avoiding fighting on your enemy's terms while forcing the enemy aircraft to fight on yours has been a foundational tenet of air to air combat since it's inception. Just because the 4+ gen Sukhois are lethal WVR does not mean we need to follow suit. (This of course assuming the airshow backflips have operational utility to begin with, or that getting that slow in an actual dogfight won't get your brains drilled out.) The F-22 won't be WVR with the Sukhois until it's out of Fox 3's.

By all means leverage F-22 and F-35 development and technology to the maximum extent, but if your forced to tweak the airframe anyways, you might as well give it greater range and payload while you are at it to meet PCA requirements. This may entail backing off some of the 9G WVR capabilities.


Imho part of the F22 legacy is super-maneuverability and it will be there, it has to be.

People think of F22-esque agility only as a meaning o engage enemies at close range, but reality is much more complex.

Agility translates into survivability, first and foremost. It helps the "spike management", helps maneuvering in order to engage and helps on "hiding" the most visible part of the aircraft.

IT IS NOT just dogfighting.

Furthermore, the US companies now mastered the 5th generation design and as such, it's "fairly easy" to get something that is flat out better then the F22 in all aspects, from kinematic one to the electronics.

Also, don't think you're enemies are brainless chicken. They'll come up with tactics and improve their weaponry; as such the pinnacle of the western air force HAS to be the BEST in any scenario.

BVR, WVR, knife-combat, doesn't matter. It's either the best in everything or don't bother wasting money. That is how a strictly air superiority aircraft should be designed.
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Unread post03 Dec 2016, 07:08

"The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast; the least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability."
- F-22 and F-35 pilot, Lt. Col. “Chip” Berke
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post04 Dec 2016, 03:23

popcorn wrote:"The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast; the least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability."
- F-22 and F-35 pilot, Lt. Col. “Chip” Berke


Are you sure you quoted him right?

Btw, yes, Berke is right. To be worthy of succeeding the Eagle or the Raptor, the fighter need to be the absolute best in every area. Yes, agility and speed should be the least impressive features. If that's the case, then the new F-XX is a proper air superiority platform.
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Unread post04 Dec 2016, 03:31

In general, a "legacy" to a succeeding generation (of whatever) would preferably consist of one's best attributes, not the least. It wil have enough speed and maneuverability to get the job done.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post04 Dec 2016, 19:13

nutshell wrote:
popcorn wrote:"The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast; the least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability."
- F-22 and F-35 pilot, Lt. Col. “Chip” Berke


Are you sure you quoted him right?

Btw, yes, Berke is right. To be worthy of succeeding the Eagle or the Raptor, the fighter need to be the absolute best in every area. Yes, agility and speed should be the least impressive features. If that's the case, then the new F-XX is a proper air superiority platform.

Yes, that's exactly what he said. Information superiority/situational awareness combined with low observability, are the most important aspects, in modern warfare.
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Unread post07 Dec 2016, 23:50

WVR the Raptor has some neat tricks and would be a hard bird to take on, but it's hardly what makes it deadly and it definitely can lose in that range. What makes it deadly is the fact that it can see you and shoot you down without you ever knowing it was there.
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Unread post12 Dec 2016, 18:08

Doubt it, and if it did happen I think it'd resemble more of the FB-22 than the F-22 we know (and love, at least me) 8) The only thing better would be resurrecting the YF-23A and updating its sensors ala the F-35's DAS, etc. :drool:
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Unread post20 Jan 2017, 23:37

Weeks have passed since the AF should have submitted it's report on a possible F-22 re-start to Congress. No one seems to be willing to talk about it.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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