More F-22's could really happen?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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white_lightning35

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Unread post01 Oct 2017, 23:34

alloycowboy wrote:
Zero-one..... I think your missing the larger pictue here which is the advancement of missile technology is basicly going to negate the F-22 super manuverability advantage.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-i ... 1704889474


Not saying that you're wrong, but that's been said a lot before. I personally think that missiles are by far the biggest weakness if the f-35 right now. IMO, it needs something much better very soon.
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nutshell

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Unread post01 Oct 2017, 23:39

I want to be generous and give the Raptor the a2a advantage for the next 10 years and thaaats a stretch.

As realistic as 6th gen russian's plasma stealth space fighter.

The only way to restart the Raptor program imho is the US to "pull a Sukhoi" and come up with a gen 5++++ overhauled F22. And we all know that's not not worth it.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 00:06

nutshell wrote:I want to be generous and give the Raptor the a2a advantage for the next 10 years and thaaats a stretch.

As realistic as 6th gen russian's plasma stealth space fighter.

The only way to restart the Raptor program imho is the US to "pull a Sukhoi" and come up with a gen 5++++ overhauled F22. And we all know that's not not worth it.


I agree with white_lightning35 the pentagon needs to shift spending to advanced missiles and weapons to expoit the technology onboard the F-35.
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wrightwing

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 05:31

Hopefully the magazine depth will be increased, as well as longer ranged missiles in the JDRADM vein.
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neptune

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 06:21

wrightwing wrote:Hopefully the magazine depth will be increased, as well as longer ranged missiles in the JDRADM vein.


...F-35 with 12 CUDAs?
:)
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charlielima223

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 08:09

white_lightning35 wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:
Zero-one..... I think your missing the larger pictue here which is the advancement of missile technology is basicly going to negate the F-22 super manuverability advantage.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-i ... 1704889474


Not saying that you're wrong, but that's been said a lot before. I personally think that missiles are by far the biggest weakness if the f-35 right now. IMO, it needs something much better very soon.


Missiles are getting better but a case and point is the recent shoot down of that Syrian Su-22. From what I've been hearing a reading was that it wasn't doing any real extreme maneuvers and it took two missiles to bring it down. Missiles technology has greatly improved but as we've seen in this recent encounter, they won't always find their mark. Tactics and technology go hand in hand with one another. The US military desperately needs to develop tactics that can fully take advantage of the F-35's superior SA and stealth. IF all else fails I'm sure an F-35 will give any (current) fighter a run for its money and make them work for it. In that type of "what if" I'd rather have an F-22 or a fleet of more F-22s.

We can all point to Red Flag with the F-35A getting a 20:1 ratio but as far as I know, those are against non stealthy 4th and 4.5 gen type of aircraft. What would the ratio look like if an F-35 or F-22 was playing as an aggressor role?
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zero-one

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 10:02

alloycowboy wrote: I think your missing the larger pictue here which is the advancement of missile technology is basicly going to negate the F-22 super manuverability advantage.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-i ... 1704889474


well first off, the advantage of the Raptor against the F-35 in A-A may not only be in Kinematics, kinematics may be all we know but there may be something else. Classified or something.

Secondly I think the approach some of us are thinking maybe all wrong.
Its like saying that when the assault rifle was created and that hand to hand combat was becoming scarce that soldiers should just be flimzy, nerdy computer geeks that are really good with operating complex communications equipment and GPS gizmos and drones.

don't get me wrong, I know that it has its place in the modern battlefield, but even to this day Navy Seals and Delta Force operatives are still experts in hand to hand combat and old fashioned knife fights. They are also very strong and agile.

Now, lets look back at recent kills, the targets were nowhere near the most advanced adversary threats, even in Desert Storm 1 the kills were not achieved against top tier adversaries.

Imagine if the F/A-18E faced a Su-22 equipped with the most advanced DRFM jammers, now imagine if it wasn't a Su-22 but a Su-35. Would you really want to be in an F-4 in that scenario. Forget the HMCS and the 9X, the whole point of the argument is that sometimes missiles will just go stupid, so you need a fall back and another fall back if that fails too.

I think 6th gen is a good opportunity to raise the kinematics bar again. Since the 80s when planes began reaching the 9G human limit, missiles have began to overtake the what Kinematics can offer.

But with the 6th gen optionally unmanned, they can get rid of the 9G limit. If the AMRAAM and 9X can miss planes that can hardly pull 5Gs with a combat load, imagine how much harder it would be for them to his a theoretical 12 - 15G capable unmanned platform with DIRCM and DRFM countermeasures.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 19:48

zero-one wrote:
alloycowboy wrote: I think your missing the larger pictue here which is the advancement of missile technology is basicly going to negate the F-22 super manuverability advantage.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-i ... 1704889474


well first off, the advantage of the Raptor against the F-35 in A-A may not only be in Kinematics, kinematics may be all we know but there may be something else. Classified or something.

Secondly I think the approach some of us are thinking maybe all wrong.
Its like saying that when the assault rifle was created and that hand to hand combat was becoming scarce that soldiers should just be flimzy, nerdy computer geeks that are really good with operating complex communications equipment and GPS gizmos and drones.

don't get me wrong, I know that it has its place in the modern battlefield, but even to this day Navy Seals and Delta Force operatives are still experts in hand to hand combat and old fashioned knife fights. They are also very strong and agile.

Now, lets look back at recent kills, the targets were nowhere near the most advanced adversary threats, even in Desert Storm 1 the kills were not achieved against top tier adversaries.

Imagine if the F/A-18E faced a Su-22 equipped with the most advanced DRFM jammers, now imagine if it wasn't a Su-22 but a Su-35. Would you really want to be in an F-4 in that scenario. Forget the HMCS and the 9X, the whole point of the argument is that sometimes missiles will just go stupid, so you need a fall back and another fall back if that fails too.

I think 6th gen is a good opportunity to raise the kinematics bar again. Since the 80s when planes began reaching the 9G human limit, missiles have began to overtake the what Kinematics can offer.

But with the 6th gen optionally unmanned, they can get rid of the 9G limit. If the AMRAAM and 9X can miss planes that can hardly pull 5Gs with a combat load, imagine how much harder it would be for them to his a theoretical 12 - 15G capable unmanned platform with DIRCM and DRFM countermeasures.


zero-one..... Given that the F-35 has more advanced avionics, sensor fusion, and networking it is reasonable to surmise the only advantage the F-22 does have over the F-35 is in kinematic due to it superior thrust to weight ratio, lower wing loading, thrust vectoring and optimization for high speed supercruise. This is what makes the F-22 a great interceptor along with its top secret death ray. :roll:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_ray

The whole problem with the knife fight in the phone booth senario (short range ACM) is that it is turning into a no win situation where eveyone dies because the missiles can be fired from just about any point in the phone booth. You also have stealth aircraft firing at you from long range which you can't detect.

Also six generation will be manned for the simple reason that it will take to long and cost to much to program the 100 million lines of code to replicate what a pilot can do. To quote Warner Von Braun, "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... and the only one that can be mass-produced with unskilled labor."

Also it is rather pointless to design a 15G fighter when the missile being fired at you are still turning in excess of 40G's and will probably be able to turn 60G corners by the time sixth generation fighters arrive.
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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 21:40

If you "need" your Nine G in a modern fighter???
You did something wrong at radar detection range.

Modern radars can detect and identify the opposition "way down the road".

The "I need nine (or more) G" hype is over.

Modern combat is to detect, identify, and engage "at range".
Positon the flight, communicate, build a strategy if required, and shoot before being seen or detected yourself.

Unless ! ! ! ! Some inventive clown, pffft, again, pffft put some of the most stupid ROE's on paper.
You"ll never learn anything this way.

Visually identify?
Stop all modern production airplanes and continue building F-15, F-16, and F-18 generation planes.
They have the "right stuff" to visually identify and engage.

The guy that puts "visually identify" in the ROE's anno 2017 should be teleported back in time. :doh: :bang: :doh:
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Unread post02 Oct 2017, 21:43

charlielima223 wrote:
We can all point to Red Flag with the F-35A getting a 20:1 ratio but as far as I know, those are against non stealthy 4th and 4.5 gen type of aircraft. What would the ratio look like if an F-35 or F-22 was playing as an aggressor role?



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Unread post03 Oct 2017, 00:21

alloycowboy wrote: To quote Warner Von Braun, "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... and the only one that can be mass-produced with unskilled labor."


Scott Crossfield said something similar.

“Where can you find another non-linear servo-mechanism weighing only 150 pounds and having great adaptability, that can be produced so cheaply by completely unskilled labor?”
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post03 Oct 2017, 01:12

The F35 modularity IS meant to expand avionics and weapons availability. Literally, if i put a rocket motor up in my a$$, the F35 is very likely to fire me against a truck full of bananas.

Going for better weapons is the very next thing for the winged services, considering how the PCA and the JSF programs are structured. I think it is actually quite official already, i've seen a USAF slide here in some thread on this board.

Btw getting back to the F22. Yes, the Raptor has only 2 things in which is better then the F35: kinematics and looking prettier. That's about it.By the time, if ever, the Raptor gets a HMD; the F35 will be shooting lasers (no seriously, shooting air born lasers if GE/PW were serious about that).

The unmanned air superiority is not a topic of discussion before a century or so. Dunno how many fantastizillions of line of codes are required only to code a mediocre pilot. Then there's the computing power required to mimic the adaptability and creativity of a human operator.

Maybe, in 50 years we might have something remotely controlled (maybe better then a pure unmanned drone) if we'll ever come up with a global >50Msec latency, immune to jamming,weather and disance, point-to-point datalink.
G loads are non issues, because once energy weapons are in place; STR, ITR and the likes will be a non factor. Stealth and structural strength will.

Unless you're russian, in 50 years their migs will surely outrun the light. OR be immune to it (while being cheaper then a F16, obviously)
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Unread post03 Oct 2017, 08:08

alloycowboy wrote:
zero-one..... Given that the F-35 has more advanced avionics, sensor fusion, and networking it is reasonable to surmise the only advantage the F-22 does have over the F-35 is in kinematic due to it superior thrust to weight ratio, lower wing loading, thrust vectoring and optimization for high speed supercruise.

If thats the only advantage the Raptor has then why is everyone in the know saying that it the better A-A platform of the 2. I can only find 2 explanations
1. Kinematics are so much more important than we think and that makes the Raptor better even with less SA than the F-35

2. The Raptor has a secret, call it a death ray or whatever, all I know is, 8 F-15s with 9X and HMCS couldn't lock on to a Raptor WVR.
https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/


alloycowboy wrote:The whole problem with the knife fight in the phone booth senario (short range ACM) is that it is turning into a no win situation

Did the shooting down of all those Su-22s and Su24s recently and Mig-29s over Bosnia turn into no win scenarios,
Even the much vaunted 9X malfunctions at times and you may resort to using the gun specially when fighters start employing DIRCM and DRFM.



the problem with BVR is that it won't always work.
I would agree that it will comprise the majority of modern air warfare, but there will always be moments that you will get close. Even the on the podcast debate between Chip and Pierre Spray, Chip says that on the Raptor, his goal will be to destroy the aircraft at BVR all of the time (but then he pauses and takes it back and says) "Almost all the time" Why?

alloycowboy wrote:Also it is rather pointless to design a 15G fighter when the missile being fired at you are still turning in excess of 40G's and will probably be able to turn 60G corners by the time sixth generation fighters arrive.

Missiles could always pull more Gs than fighters even way back in the 70s, Desert Storm etc, but the problem is they can be fooled, now couple that with Gs and it only complicates matters even more in favor of the target. Thats why none of these 40 - 50 G capable missiles have 100% Pks, they have all missed, even the AMRAAM has missed at time, the Pheonix and the 9X have all missed.
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Unread post03 Oct 2017, 08:40

vilters wrote:The "I need nine (or more) G" hype is over.




Here is Tom Morganfeld, an F-22 and F-35 test pilot who probably knows more about these planes and air combat in general than anyone here, maybe even more than the current crop of F-35 pilots training on the plane he tested.

at the end of the video he says that "Maneuverability will always be relevant on a fighter" this is coming from an F-35 test pilot.

vilters wrote:Modern combat is to detect, identify, and engage "at range".
Positon the flight, communicate, build a strategy if required, and shoot before being seen or detected yourself.


I guess the F-16, F-15 and F/A-18E all had trouble identifying Su-24s and Su-22s at range which is why they had to get close?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

https://fightersweep.com/2698/f-35-worst-fighter-ever/
C.W. Lemoine wrote:There are hundreds of scenarios where an F-35 may find its way to the merge. In a world with high off-boresight short and medium-range missiles, is it still possible to get a guns kill? Absolutely. Is it likely? No.


Unlikely but possible

heres another:
http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... t-og-f-35/
RNAF Maj. Dolby Hanche - F-35 pilot wrote:There are several reasons why the F-35 could end up in a dogfight. After all, when all the missiles are gone the gun is the only option that we are left with. Or what if we meet an opponent with an even smaller radar signature? Or an opponent that is able to evade all our missiles, in one way or another?
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Unread post03 Oct 2017, 09:13

F-22 has the following advantages over F-35 at the moment:

1. It has larger radar giving longer detection range and volume. The range advantage is about 20%, so it's fare less than what F-15A/C has over F-16 models, but it's still there. This will likely not change in the future unless F-35 gets GaN tech and F-22 does not.

2. Has more internal missiles. Basically twice the missile load currently, although this will likely change in the future with equal internal BVR missile carry. With 2 external AIM-9X/ASRAAM for F-35, they will have equal missile load, but that will increase F-35 RCS to some degree and will have some small impact on performance.

3. Higher flight performance. It has much higher top speed and also cruising speed. Supersonic performance is generally much better but subsonic performance is not that different according to pilots. This will not change in the future that much even if F-35 gets ADVENT/AETD technology and F-22 does not.

4. Is mature system with fully trained pilots who train air-to-air combat extensively. Currently F-22 pilots and also generals know how they work and how good they are in what they do. F-35 is still in infancy and it will take time before the skills are there and knowledge about how they really work. This will change somewhat as F-35 pilots get more experience, but F-22 pilots will still get more pure air-to-air training as that's what it does. F-35 pilots will be more multi-role as that's what F-35 does. But I'm sure future F-35 pilots will be very good in air-to-air.

One-on-one I think F-22 is generally better air superiority machine and has some rather fairly big advantages currently and will have some of those forever. With higher performance it can get to where it needs to be quicker and will likely acquire targets somewhat earlier with bigger radar. Larger weapons load will give it better staying power and ability to shoot down more enemy aircraft.

However F-35 has also some serious advantages. It has generally superior avionics system with EOTS/EODAS, HMD, CNI and more advanced sensor fusion. There will be a lot more F-35s out there than there will be F-22s. The difference will be a lot bigger than between F-15 and F-16 numbers, even if there will be additional F-22s. There were about 3 F-16s for every F-15A/C AFAIK. F-35 will outnumber F-22 by the ratio of about 20:1 or so. So while individually F-35 might be less capable in air-to-air, as a force they will be really overwhelming. They will not fight individually or even as pairs but as a whole bigger force by utilizing their numbers, avionics and comms. Of course neither F-22 nor F-35 will fight by themselves, but work together. I do see near term need for F-22, but I think F-35 will handle even air-to-air combat rather easily when fully mature system. I don't think there is need for additional F-22s as I think it will be too costly for the advantages. If there was excess money, I think USAF should rather buy more F-35s and B-21s and similar future systems. Combo of current fleet of F-22s and F-35s will be overwhelming over any potential adversary IMO.
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