Nice Article on the F-22

KamenRiderBlade · by **KamenRiderBlade** » 01 Dec 2016, 19:46

The F-22 Raptor Is the World's Best Fighter (And It Has a Secret Weapon That Is Out in the Open)
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the ... apon-18549

basher54321 · by **basher54321** » 01 Dec 2016, 22:13

I take it the secret weapon is still a secret

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 01 Dec 2016, 22:56

But all the critics told me the F-22 had no use in Iraqastan style warfare...

les_paul59 · by **les_paul59** » 02 Dec 2016, 00:55

The pilot's quote about sneaking up on the red air and using the gun is the most interesting part of this article for me.
It seems as if the more we hear about Lockheed 5th gen. capability the more I realize that the days of 2 planes dogfighting in a traditional "merge" or long gone. At least when a 5th gen. jet is involved.

The f-22/f-35 are going to slaughter jets in long range of they are gonna sneak up behind and just gun them down. In order for there to be a merge you would need an incompetent 5th gen. pilot and the red jet would have to be able to find them, which is rather unlikely.

It turns out that the gun could actually see more use in 5th gen. considering their ability to maneuver behind enemy targets unseen, In a 4th gen. vs. 4th gen. merge I would have to think that they would both use hobs heaters and kill each other simultaneously.

It doesn't seem like the raptor needs a helmet mounted cueing system, although it would be nice.

KamenRiderBlade · by **KamenRiderBlade** » 02 Dec 2016, 01:37

Imagine what 5th gen with lasers can do.

=D

Sneak up, burn something down through a IR laser at the edge of WVR.

Nobody is the wiser as to who did the damage.

=D

vanshilar · by **vanshilar** » 02 Dec 2016, 03:00

KamenRiderBlade wrote:Imagine what 5th gen with lasers can do.

=D

Sneak up, burn something down through a IR laser at the edge of WVR.

Nobody is the wiser as to who did the damage.

=D

Probably a bad idea but I'm hoping right down the engine. You're there already anyway. There's so much stuff burning there that it'd be hard to figure out just what went wrong (i.e. an IR laser attack). As opposed to something like a hole in the wing which they'll see as soon as they come across the wreckage.

So if enemy planes suddenly started reporting engine problems (and America's adversaries are not exactly known for well-built engines)...probably means some 5th gen planes with lasers are in the area.

count_to_10 · by **count_to_10** » 02 Dec 2016, 03:57

vanshilar wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:Imagine what 5th gen with lasers can do.

=D

Sneak up, burn something down through a IR laser at the edge of WVR.

Nobody is the wiser as to who did the damage.

=D

Probably a bad idea but I'm hoping right down the engine. You're there already anyway. There's so much stuff burning there that it'd be hard to figure out just what went wrong (i.e. an IR laser attack). As opposed to something like a hole in the wing which they'll see as soon as they come across the wreckage.

So if enemy planes suddenly started reporting engine problems (and America's adversaries are not exactly known for well-built engines)...probably means some 5th gen planes with lasers are in the area.

I don't think that would work well -- too much margin for heat on those parts. You want to burn a fuel tank or control actuator.

vanshilar · by **vanshilar** » 02 Dec 2016, 05:05

count_to_10 wrote:I don't think that would work well -- too much margin for heat on those parts. You want to burn a fuel tank or control actuator.

I guess that's true...these engines were presumably built to withstand afterburner temperatures, and they won't be using afterburners if they don't know there's a 5th gen behind them.

Hmm...maybe focus the EM power of the AESA and burn out something in the FADEC? Or something else similar in the aircraft?

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 02 Dec 2016, 06:45

What's the Flashpoint for the pilot?

vanshilar · by **vanshilar** » 02 Dec 2016, 10:43

wrightwing wrote:What's the Flashpoint for the pilot?

Hahaha -- I was thinking the pilot may be difficult to reach if the 5th gen is on his tail. Although he's presumably easier to set on fire than the rest of the plane. I'm not sure to what extent people would want to directly target the pilot though.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 08 Dec 2016, 17:00

les_paul59 wrote:It turns out that the gun could actually see more use in 5th gen. considering their ability to maneuver behind enemy targets unseen, In a 4th gen. vs. 4th gen. merge I would have to think that they would both use hobs heaters and kill each other simultaneously.

Indeed.

And too often left unsaid: the gun is the ONLY air to air weapon that's impossible to jam...

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 08 Dec 2016, 17:39

mixelflick wrote:
les_paul59 wrote:It turns out that the gun could actually see more use in 5th gen. considering their ability to maneuver behind enemy targets unseen, In a 4th gen. vs. 4th gen. merge I would have to think that they would both use hobs heaters and kill each other simultaneously.

Indeed.

And too often left unsaid: the gun is the ONLY air to air weapon that's impossible to jam...

Guns jam just fine on their own. :mrgreen:

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 08 Dec 2016, 19:01

mixelflick wrote:
les_paul59 wrote:It turns out that the gun could actually see more use in 5th gen. considering their ability to maneuver behind enemy targets unseen, In a 4th gen. vs. 4th gen. merge I would have to think that they would both use hobs heaters and kill each other simultaneously.

Indeed.

And too often left unsaid: the gun is the ONLY air to air weapon that's impossible to jam...

Until the sun goes down. . .

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 09 Dec 2016, 14:47

"Until the sun goes down.."

Ah, but doesn't the F-35 have a nifty IR sensor and other things to shoot in the dark?

"Guns jam on their own"

Fair point. But do we really want to leave an F-35 pilot defenseless after expending her 2-4 AMRAAMS? It's not like she can run like a Raptor. I did read of supercruise of mach 1.2 without afterburner for 150 miles, but it's plausible that it could get run down by a lightly loaded Flanker. Certainly a PAK-FA/J-20 could do it with the right engines..

I'm no Pierre Sprey, but if I were the pilot of an F-35 - I'd want that gun pod..

flighthawk128 · by **flighthawk128** » 09 Dec 2016, 15:23

mixelflick wrote:"Until the sun goes down.."

Ah, but doesn't the F-35 have a nifty IR sensor and other things to shoot in the dark?

"Guns jam on their own"

Fair point. But do we really want to leave an F-35 pilot defenseless after expending her 2-4 AMRAAMS? It's not like she can run like a Raptor. I did read of supercruise of mach 1.2 without afterburner for 150 miles, but it's plausible that it could get run down by a lightly loaded Flanker. Certainly a PAK-FA/J-20 could do it with the right engines..

I'm no Pierre Sprey, but if I were the pilot of an F-35 - I'd want that gun pod..

Yup, EODAS and IRST should help with visual ID. Radar works in the dark anyhow...

If I recall correctly, there was an article with a quote about how everytime the Marines load up the Harriers (I think it was the Harriers... might have been another plane), the gun pod is always strapped on regardless of the mission. It'll probably be the same way with the F-35B, but it really comes down to how the brass want to manage the fleet, and it'll show through the tactics they employ. If they don't mind the tradeoffs that come with the gun pod, they'll always strap it on and make it work. If they're confident in whatever other shenanigans they come up with that don't need the gun pod, they'll do that.

As for defenseless after expending AMRAAMs, shoot and scoot tactics should make the F-35 hard as hell to find. The AMRAAMs have good range, and good pilots won't allow themselves to get within Red Air's radar range. Find target, track and lock, fire, bank and get the hell out of there. Repeat until out of missiles, then it's off to the FARP (for Marines) or carrier (for Marines and Navy) to rearm. No need for a gun, and you'll get extended mission range from the weight savings. Like I said, it's down to the tactics they want to use, and because the F-35 has that modularity, the tactics can switch depending on the situation.