Admitted: F-22 won most of the WVR fights against Rafale

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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uclass

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Unread post19 May 2016, 11:54

wil59 wrote: https://theaviationist.com/2013/06/19/f ... by-rafale/
That i want to say is in the video;The rafale has the f-22 in the HUD ;The rafale in the video draws 8.5g in a turn runs to remain in contacts visual white the f-22;In spite of that the f-22 arrives has to escape from the HUD of the rafale;They are which want to say the pilot rafale(TO GET OUT) Can not beat my guys!If you not understand i can not do anything for you!

Shouldn't you be surrendering around about now?
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em745

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Unread post19 May 2016, 12:28

wil59 wrote:je suis francais ;il est dit que le f-22 est plus lourd que le rafale et que le f-22 a une trés bonne maniabilité qui peux l'aide a se soustraire d'une situation difficile! en aucun cas l'article mentionne que le f-22 a gagné en dogfighting contre le rafale comme gta4 le dit! dans la mentalité francaise le fait que l'on dise (lui permet de se sortir de la plupart des situations délicates) ne veux pas dire qu'il est intouchable! ce que le pilote décrit veux dire que le f-22 est difficile a suivre quand il fait des manoeuvre évasive pour une raison x ou y! la facon de parler ou d'écrire n'est pas forcément compris de la méme facon quand on appartient a des pays différent c'est un qui-propos.

Alright, first off, stick to English. This is a U.S. based forum, and I'd wager most people on here don't understand a word of French (except maybe "oui" and "merde").

Second, that text bit makes no mention of the F-22's POWER/thrust-to-weight advantage (i.e. its ability to hightail it out of the WVR arena without being pursued). The very fact that the text focuses only on its "formidable maneuverability" clearly implies an aircraft willing to stick it out in a turning dogfight.

Now, I'm no combat pilot, but as far as I know, the only way to "come out ahead" in a dogfight is to outmaneuver the other guy *AND* to blow him out of the sky.
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shrimpman

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Unread post19 May 2016, 13:15

em745 wrote:Alright, first off, stick to English. This is a U.S. based forum, and I'd wager most people on here don't understand a word of French (except maybe "oui" and "merde")...


And also "Je me rends!" (Sorry, could not resist this one!)
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gta4

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Unread post19 May 2016, 15:50

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
get out of difficult situation do not mean (to win in difficult situation) or you see the word WIN the word in the original text in french is NOT MENTIONED it's your interpretation that is false! ....YOUR IMAGINATION


Your French-English translation is terrible.
Neither "surmonter" or "reussir" means "get out of". The former means "come out on top", the latter means "to succeed".

F-22 came out on top in a dogfight; F-22 succeeded in dogfighting; both phrases mean "F-22 won the dogfight".

End of the line. :mrgreen:[/quote ] https://theaviationist.com/2013/06/19/f ... by-rafale/
That i want to say is in the video;The rafale has the f-22 in the HUD ;The rafale in the video draws 8.5g in a turn runs to remain in contacts visual white the f-22;In spite of that the f-22 arrives has to escape from the HUD of the rafale;They are which want to say the pilot rafale(TO GET OUT) Can not beat my guys!If you not understand i can not do anything for you!


1. In this 3-minute video, F-22 appeared on the front hemisphere of Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened in the rest of the time ? The french people won't let us know.

2. This is a gun-fight exercise, but the Rafale never placed the cross hair over F-22. So this is not a victory

3. There were multiple dogfight exercises, but French air force NEVER claimed any victories on F-22.
Image

Translate: F-22 and Rafale got into close range encounters for at lease two times. Each time F-22 gun killed the Rafale without much difficulty.
Last edited by gta4 on 20 May 2016, 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
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gta4

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Unread post19 May 2016, 15:58

I challenge anyone (including wil59) who thinks Rafale at least won once against F-22:

Please find any source from French Official source claiming that Rafale won at least once in dogfight.

Nevertheless, I could find plenty of french pilot interview saying the contrary (one or two or more defeats, some draws, no victory). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post19 May 2016, 16:53

gta4 wrote:I challenge anyone (including wil59) who thinks Rafale at least won once against F-22:

Please find any source from French Official source claiming that Rafale won at least once in dogfight.

Nevertheless, I could find plenty of french pilot interview saying the contrary (one or two or more defeats, some draws, no victory). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

To be fair, coming to a draw against the F-22 is no small feat. It's a great display of airmanship.
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icemaverick

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Unread post19 May 2016, 18:00

Even if a Rafale pilot managed to score a kill in a gunfight against an F-22, it doesn't mean much. There are reports of experienced F-16 pilots scoring victories on newbie Raptor pilots. I even read an anecdote about an instructor in a T-38 beating a green trainee in the F-22. You can have superior acceleration, turn rate and climb speed but that's useless if you don't have the skills. Most of these exercises involve a mix of experienced and young guys. It wouldn't surprise me if a veteran with 3000 hours (on multiple platforms) beat out some guy who just got his wings.

You could put me in a Lamborghini Aventador against the world's best race car driver in a Mustang GT. Who do you think would go faster around the Nurburgring?
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castlebravo

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Unread post19 May 2016, 22:04

The least impressive thing about the F-22 is its speed and maneuverability, and it yet it dominates the Rafale in 1v1 dogfights :twisted:
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Unread post20 May 2016, 07:28

gta4 wrote:Please find any source from French Official source claiming that Rafale won at least once in dogfight.

Nevertheless, I could find plenty of french pilot interview saying the contrary (one or two or more defeats, some draws, no victory). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


To be fair, official sites never commented who won how many fights (just once, when the indian bragged how they shot down some British Typhoons in an exercise). It's common practice to train, learn your lessons, maybe share them, but to shut the .... up.
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wil59

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Unread post20 May 2016, 10:21

gta4 wrote:I challenge anyone (including wil59) who thinks Rafale at least won once against F-22:

Please find any source from French Official source claiming that Rafale won at least once in dogfight.

Nevertheless, I could find plenty of french pilot interview saying the contrary (one or two or more defeats, some draws, no victory). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
The part the more impressive exercise ATLC is the confrontation that members of your squadron have had opposite the American hunter F-22 Raptor, described by all the observers as a kind of ultimate aerial weapon, very largely early at all the levels, without rival. Few information have filtered on the face to face Franco-American. Why the American ones have restricted the fighting to the only passes cannon and what were the shapes of emport of the two devices?

What is on, it is what to limit a fighting approached to the only cannon fighting, that does not have really sense today: even very close to the other airplane and face to face, our missiles infra-red Mica are capable of destroying their target. Yet, in the course of his different cannon fightings against the Raptor, the Gust has had of numerous opportunities of shooting Mica IR, non-announced since not making left of the frame accepted by the American ones for these commitments. The two airplanes were smooth.

How have called you your colleagues on the behavior of the American hunter? How represents an airplane also brought forward for you?

The Gust is an extremely accomplished airplane that does not need his radar to lead a fighting «beyond the visual range». It is an airplane with which everything is easy, probably THE leader of work of Dassault. The Raptor is a beautiful airplane, but the Gust is clearly an excellent choice for France.
A émirati mirage 2000-9 piloted by a French has completed a cannon pass on a F-22. It that will agree with Éric Gérard when it says that the vectorial pressure is not of no usefulness in fighting. You talk about the aerial fighting approached as of an uncertain exercise, subjected to factors independent from the qualities of the eux-même airplanes. What do you mean thither?

In an approached fighting, one teaches that «the sight it is the life». Indeed, if one sees a bit too late the other airplane, the fighting maybe lost before having begun. Yet to have the «tally» (i.e. seeing the other airplane) in time is an uncertain exercise even while one has the sight of a fighter pilot: the airplanes approach one of the other one at about 2000 km/hr and the other airplane can besides come from the sector dazzling close to the sun... It is an example, it has other uncertain factors.

Finally, I think that Éric Gérard is right of saying that the vectorial pressure does not serve for anything: We have noticed it.

The Gust is, with the F-22, the only device in operation endowed with stealthy characteristics. I have understood in a meeting that it was stealthy de face. You have a unique instrument called optoelectronics frontal sector. In what consists this tool and what advantage you can get out from there in aerial fighting?
It is a matter of a camera equipped with a laser telemetry and introduced on the nose of our airplane. Thus by beautiful time, we can completely manage without the radar. We can also identify visually the airplane that we have caught and it with distances assuring our safety.

http://www.surlering.com/article/articl ... -de-rafale
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wil59

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Unread post20 May 2016, 11:18

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
gta4 wrote:I challenge anyone (including wil59) who thinks Rafale at least won once against F-22:

Please find any source from French Official source claiming that Rafale won at least once in dogfight.

Nevertheless, I could find plenty of french pilot interview saying the contrary (one or two or more defeats, some draws, no victory). :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

To be fair, coming to a draw against the F-22 is no small feat. It's a great display of airmanship.

thank you ! It is an American forum and I find normal that we value f 22, f 35 etc. but he(it) has things which are awkward the fact that if a plane is not US it is not a good plane! Gust(Burst) is a multi-purpose(versatile) plane; he(it) destroyed a tank has 55 kilométre by éxemple; dogfight he(it) is éxellent in the confrontations against eurofighter 7 victory has 1,Against the f 22 5 matches has equality and 1 defeat he is not a bad plane! It is the first not US plane equipped Aesa; a good avionics,Capable great cruise 1.4 with 4/6 mica, capacity nuclear missile, etc. etc.; but difficult has to defend(forbid) here not being I aeronautical specialist, driver(chauffeur) truck
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wil59

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Unread post20 May 2016, 11:44

shrimpman wrote:
em745 wrote:Alright, first off, stick to English. This is a U.S. based forum, and I'd wager most people on here don't understand a word of French (except maybe "oui" and "merde")...


And also "Je me rends!" (Sorry, could not resist this one!)
this is false the military had wanted to continue the war! it is political is pétain (which is considered a treaty in France) who wanted her! look what is happening now the french part in the conflict that happens in the world, Mali, afghanistan, iraq, libya, sahara, etc is the only nation that is currently throughout the conflict now; you just what country dublin (ireland) or your country is in conflict?
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Unread post20 May 2016, 12:40

[/quote]
To be fair, coming to a draw against the F-22 is no small feat. It's a great display of airmanship.[/quote]
thank you ! It is an American forum and I find normal that we value f 22, f 35 etc. but he(it) has things which are awkward the fact that if a plane is not US it is not a good plane! Gust(Burst) is a multi-purpose(versatile) plane; he(it) destroyed a tank has 55 kilométre by éxemple; dogfight he(it) is éxellent in the confrontations against eurofighter 7 victory has 1,Against the f 22 5 matches has equality and 1 defeat he is not a bad plane! It is the first not US plane equipped Aesa; a good avionics,Capable great cruise 1.4 with 4/6 mica, capacity nuclear missile, etc. etc.; but difficult has to defend(forbid) here not being I aeronautical specialist, driver(chauffeur) truck[/quote]

Rafael cruises at Mach 1.4 with 4-6 AAMs?

First I've heard of this. Credible??
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Unread post20 May 2016, 13:30

mixelflick wrote:
Rafael cruises at Mach 1.4 with 4-6 AAMs?

First I've heard of this. Credible??


Yes, I have a digital copy of the document. 6 MICA. IIRC two wingtip and four conformal. Low drag carriage.
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Unread post20 May 2016, 13:39

mixelflick wrote:Rafael cruises at Mach 1.4 with 4-6 AAMs?
First I've heard of this. Credible??


English Wiki states:

The M88 enables the Rafale to supercruise while carrying a loadout of four missiles and one drop tank

However, the source doesn't mention who said that, and the exact speed. So, it's possible under certain condition, but I wonder if a supercruise with just a 1250lts-tank is something very useful.
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