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F-22 and F-35 RCS revealed by USAF

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 13:53
by boff180
Yes I am not BS'ing... I'll copy/paste the article below but to cut a long story short....

F-22 = metal marble
F-35 = metal golf ball (slightly less than B-2).

Nov 2005: The U.S. Air Force, in it’s effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how “stealthy” the F-22 is. It’s RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.

The air force revealed this information, which is usually kept secret, because it wants to make the case that it makes more sense to cut production of the F-35 (which cost $30-50 million each), so that more F-22s (that cost over $100 million each) can be bought. Most of the air force generals are former fighter pilots, and the F-22 is a much hotter fighter than the F-35 (which is basically a fighter-bomber, with emphasis on the latter function.) This is causing an international uproar, because of the many foreign countries that are buying the F-35. Some of these countries have contributed money for the development of the F-35. The F-22 will not be exported, because it uses so much top secret technology.


It also seems there is truth in the news reports the F-35A is for the chop.

Andy

RE: F-22 and F-35 RCS revealed by USAF.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 14:32
by toan
There are different size of Marbles.................

http://glassmarbles.com/size.htm

The range of the diameter for glassy marbles is from 12mm to 42mm, and according to the formula, the range of cross resection area for glassy marbles could be from 0.0001m2 to 0.0014m2..........

As for the marbles with the most common size (14.4mm and 16mm in diameter), their cross resection area shall be 0.00016m2 and 0.0002m2.....

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 15:05
by elp
If JSF is a golf ball..... it is an "X -OUT". :lol:

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 15:21
by toan
The standard golf ball today is 1.68 inch (4.2672 cm) in diameter.

According to formula, its cross resection area shall be around 0.00143m2, which is about 7~9 times bigger than the minimal frontal RCS of F/A-22, but 1/35~1/70 of the frontal RCS of the western NG LO-fighters such as EF-2000, Rafale, F/A-18E/F, and so on.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 15:29
by LordOfBunnies
These are also figures they're releasing to the public, I'm pretty sure they still have the actual value locked in a vault somewhere. The real values are probably also much smaller than what's available to the public. Best to not show your cards and all that.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 16:22
by Capt-soap
At what range would a block 50 f-16 radar,pick up a marble?

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 16:35
by The_Mastiff
Toan, I knew I'd read somewhere the F22 had a lower RCS than the F117.(Per last conversation). I still haven't found the book it's in though.:'). Too many books, too little time ( typical old guy excuse).

While were on the subject if you redo your charts please try to include the Captor vs. Steel Marble. Thanks, JL Raleigh NC

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 16:56
by toan
A UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air "tracking range" of CAPTOR radar is "significantly longer" than the 100 miles / 161km. (Source: AFM magazine 05/2004)

The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time theoretically. (Source: RAF magazine 06/2004)

During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them. (Source: EADS)

The RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2 class, so these informations may hint that CAPTOR radar now can "track" (not just detect) RCS = 5m2 class target 160~185 km away. According to the basic formula for the relationship between Target's RCS and Radar's effective detective / tracking range:

The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 16~24 km / 11~15 km now theoretically.

According to the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

I think that the figure in page 15 showed that the CAPTOR with AESA-upgrade's detective / tracking range is about 75% longer than the CAPTOR radar now.

So after 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 (Frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002 m2 class) should be 28~42 km / 19~26 km theoretically.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 18:22
by The_Mastiff
Thank you Toan. :) JL Raleigh NC

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2005, 18:25
by Safetystick
So providing we get past the AMRAAM barrage (hope DASS works) we should be able to lock up with an ASRAAM.

Well, that's comforting! :P

Glad the only time this is likelly to happen is on exercise (I think the RAF can live with bruised pride!). Still, providing both aircraft can deal with the SU-30's and J-10's of the world I guess we should be happy!

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2005, 01:22
by toan
If RAF really wants to get more chance in BVR fighting with F/A-22, I think it should consider the development of something like Meteor BVRAAM with AESA + IIR dual seekers. With the help AWACS, datalink, and Pirate, it may have a more optimal effective range in engaging F/A-22 than Captor + Meteor or AIM-120...........

However, since USAF and RAF are as good friends as Harry Potter and Ron, it seems that this kind of development is meaningless for RAF up to now.........

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2005, 01:48
by TenguNoHi
However, since USAF and RAF are as good friends as Harry Potter and Ron, it seems that this kind of development is meaningless for RAF up to now.........


WTF is Ron?

-Aaron

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2005, 02:40
by Velvet
Skinny guy with a pet Rat.

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2005, 03:11
by Shonuff
isnt the US always improving upon its stealth technology?

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2005, 05:33
by toan
Shonuff wrote:isnt the US always improving upon its stealth technology?


Yes, so even the F/A-22 is not the highest achievement of stealthy techonology for USA now..........

According to a report from Popular Science in 2003, the scientists and engineers of USA have started to persue the new standard of stealth: RCS = -70dB, or 0.0000001 m2 class.............

As for Europeans, according to a recent report from EADS this year, it hopes to achieve -30db / 0.001m2-class RCS in its new UAV/UCAV that won't enter service before 2025, and its ultimate goal for the stealth of future UAV/UCAV that is settled now is -40dB / 0.0001m2, which should mean that it will take the countries in Western Europe another 20~25 years at least to achieve roughly the same class of stealthy capability that USAF has achieved since the end of 1990s...........