F-22 and F-35 RCS revealed by USAF

toan · by **toan** » 30 Nov 2005, 11:07

Final estimation:

According to the information from AFM magazine 05/2004 and the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

1. The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 17~31 km / 12~19 km now theoretically.

2. After 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 today (Frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052 m2 class) should be 30~54 km / 21~33 km theoretically.

According to the information from Mr. Billsweetman and the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

1. The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 13~19 km / 10~13 km now theoretically.

2. After 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 today (Frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052 m2 class) should be 23~33 km / 17~23 km theoretically.

elp · by **elp** » 30 Nov 2005, 14:50

toan wrote:Final estimation:

According to the information from AFM magazine 05/2004 and the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

1. The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 17~31 km 11-18mi. / 12~19 km now theoretically. 9.2/11.4 mi

2. After 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 today (Frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052 m2 class) should be 30~54 km / 21~33 km 18-32.4 mitheoretically.

According to the information from Mr. Billsweetman and the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

1. The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 13~19 km 11.4-13mi/ 10~13 km 6-11.4minow theoretically.

2. After 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 today (Frontal RCS = 0.00015~0.00052 m2 class) should be 23~33 km 13.2-19.8mi/ 17~23 km10.2-13.8mi theoretically.

Ok now I can read it.

Good info thanks.

snypa777 · by **snypa777** » 30 Nov 2005, 22:05

Are you Americans EVER gonna get decimalised!!!! :lol:

mark · by **mark** » 30 Nov 2005, 22:32

snypa777 · by **snypa777** » 30 Nov 2005, 22:58

Heh heh!!! Good on ya! I work with a very old guy with 40 years in engineering. Whenever we give him fabrication drawings, the first thing he does is convert ALL the decimal units into imperial ones! He hates "new numbers" as he calls them!

2sBlind · by **2sBlind** » 01 Dec 2005, 06:40

This way it confuses the bad guys out there when we call out ranges in NM. It's all part of our grand national security strategy.

ximeno · by **ximeno** » 06 Dec 2005, 07:58

well I can tell you from a mechanic point of view, it sucks thinking that a bolt or hyd line is British, Metric or SAE. (Try removing a flap control valve on a hawker corporate jet)

Now my question after looking in aviation weekly and in this one issue there was a article about the Alaska F-15 with a big AESA type radar, about as big as the radar on the E's and K's. Now with them along with some of the F-18 Block2 AESA's, is it possible that with such a stronger, more sensitive radar that the f-22 can be seen? and I know I heard all of this talk about just "how stealthy" the f-22 but I have not heard anything about it against the aesa radars from our current military? :idea:

My strong belief is that the f-22, took way to long to get to this stage of development and I think it is outdated by something similar to more's law.

F-23 would have been the better choice.

elp · by **elp** » 06 Dec 2005, 16:07

Moore wasn't a fighter pilot. :lol:

Guysmiley · by **Guysmiley** » 06 Dec 2005, 16:31

Or an aerospace engineer. Jet fighters don't shrink in half every 18 months... And the F-22/F-23 argument is a whole 'nother can of worms. Yes, it looks cooler, but wouldn't it also be out of date now by your logic? Is it a better aircraft? There's a whole thread devoted to that debate.

Roscoe · by **Roscoe** » 06 Dec 2005, 22:37

And his aurguements got pounded there (by me) so he's bringing it here.

Plus, I love how everyone is posting on this thread like they're experts in RCS. Strange, never met an RCS guy talk in square meters. The unit of choice is decibals (square meter) or dBsm!!!! :poke:

There, I feel better...

habu2 · by **habu2** » 06 Dec 2005, 22:54

Roscoe wrote:Strange, never met an RCS guy talk in square meters.

A real RCS guy won't talk - period.

toan · by **toan** » 07 Dec 2005, 09:43

1. As I've mentioned a lot of times before, I'm not a professional military expert or doctor, but just a military fan with special interest in modern fighters. In Japanese, I should be named as an "OTAKU".....

2. Personally, I like to talk RCS in square meter because in this way, I think the difference of RCS among fighters can be revealed more directly and clearly.

toan · by **toan** » 07 Dec 2005, 09:51

ximeno wrote:well I can tell you from a mechanic point of view, it sucks thinking that a bolt or hyd line is British, Metric or SAE. (Try removing a flap control valve on a hawker corporate jet)

Now my question after looking in aviation weekly and in this one issue there was a article about the Alaska F-15 with a big AESA type radar, about as big as the radar on the E's and K's. Now with them along with some of the F-18 Block2 AESA's, is it possible that with such a stronger, more sensitive radar that the f-22 can be seen? and I know I heard all of this talk about just "how stealthy" the f-22 but I have not heard anything about it against the aesa radars from our current military?

My strong belief is that the f-22, took way to long to get to this stage of development and I think it is outdated by something similar to more's law.

About the effective detection range of AN/APG-77 according to AW&ST:

AW&ST 2000/03/17, 120 mile (192 km) at "Stealthy mode".

AW&ST 2000/03/17, 140 to 145 mile (260 to 270 km) at "Non-stealthy mode".

AW&ST 2000/03/17, radar image with 30 cm-class resolution for the target 100 miles (160 km) away.

AW&ST 2000/03/17, TWS 100 targets at the same time.

According to the reports of Mr.Billsweetman a few years ago, F/A-22 can detect the target of 400~460 km away with the help of ALQ-94 EWs. And the effective detection range of AN/APG-77 is about 185~230 km, which has some sacrifice because of energy / emission controlling for stealthy issue.

Some other reports said that AN/APG-77 has two kinds of detection modes. In the active mode, its effective detection range is about 230 km; while in the passive mode (The radar is as a receiver for enemy fighter's EM emission), its maximal effective range is about 400~460 km, but the datas which are gotten by this mode may not be precise enough to shoot BVRAAMs.

Shonuff · by **Shonuff** » 07 Dec 2005, 13:04

I've read in the book Lockheed Stealth that basically if the enemy starts blasting his radar all over the sky, the Raptor's passive sensors would be able to provide enough data for an AMRAAM shot.

Gums · by **Gums** » 07 Dec 2005, 18:05

Salute!

For all you folks wondering about a practical way to judge the RCS numbers.....

Read Ben Rich's book about the Skunk Works.

He talks about testing the RCS for the F-117 at Sandia. AND I PARAPHRASE the war story....

So they perch the F-117 or Have Blue or Senior Trend or other code name model on the wooden pole, or whatever. The Sandia engineer says something is wrong, as they can't get a "baseline" RCS or whatever. Just then a bird lands on the model and the equipment gets a reading. He tells the Lockheed folks, "O.K., our equipment is working now". And this was over 20 years ago.

be afraid, be very afraid. By the time you see a Raptor, you are about 23 milliseconds from having your brains splattered all over the combiner glass.

out,