F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2005, 17:37
by pafpilot
Hello everyone!
A lot of people here talk about the invincibility(sp check)of the Su-30MKI.
What if we compare it with the Raptor.Some may argue that the Raptor is stealthy, so lets assume that its not stealthy :lol: .What will be the result then?I mean a neat fight.

Thnx :salute:

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2005, 22:43
by snypa777
Ahhh wouldn`t SU-30 pilots love that! If your gonna give the Raptor a handicap, wouldn`t it be fairer to give the SU one too?...Lets say...hmmm limit its A2A missiles to 15km range... :D

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2005, 23:45
by Sniper69
The 30 would still have a tough time because the Raptor has TV, and the heater/helmet combo.(If it gets that close). And if they make that Ramjet AMRAAM, the Raptor would be able to reach out and touch him from a more comfortable distance. Does the MKI have TV or the option for it?

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 00:49
by The_Mastiff
The 30Mki has 3d TV. It has a radar that is almost as powerfull as the ApG 77 , but it is J band and is no where near as sophisticated or clear, fast, versatile etc. Despite the similarity in wattage the Mki has no where near the Raptors radar range or tricks, or discrimination.

The Raptor has a better T/W ratio,, lower wing loading, much, much better high speed handling, will out run the Afterburner needing, huge flying target with things hanging off it that can only manuver with the raptor at low altitudes, and slow speeds. It would try to get the Raptor into a WVR fight, but it's huge RCS makes it show up hundreds of miles before the Raptor. It has a larger RCS than the eagle even. Good Luck. It does have a kind of link 16 equivalent but against a raptor that means what?

Sorry, the best of the Su family so far is meat on the table for the Raptor. It will die without knowing where it's killer is. I really doubt the RWR will pick up the APG 77 on LPI, the Su has no towed decoys etc. etc.etc. It's only capable of 8.5 G's at weight, but does carry a bunch of gas.

It's more designed to fight eagle,Falcon, mirage class aircraft but would struggle against the most advanced of these at BVR. It won't last against the Typhoon or Rafale either. It is very manuverable at airshows though. JL Raleigh NC

PS, I'm waiting for someone to post the Vayu Sena pages that "prove" how superior the Su30Mki is to anything ever made by the inferior western engineers that only make over priced, inferior aircraft.

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 04:02
by bring_it_on1
The 30Mki has 3d TV. It has a radar that is almost as powerfull as the ApG 77 , but it is J band and is no where near as sophisticated or clear, fast, versatile etc. Despite the similarity in wattage the Mki has no where near the Raptors radar range or tricks, or discrimination.


the apg-77 has almost twice as much range for a 1m^2 target!!!

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43498

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 05:48
by toan
There are variable datas and estimations for the detective range of Bars PESA radar, the best one I know is that it can "detect" the target of F-16 class (RCS = 1~2 m2) at the range of 140~160 km away.

As for AN/APG-77, many military informations and estimations believe that it will be able to "detect" the target of RCS = 1 m2 class at the range of 200~230 km away. However, in the real combat, the AN/APG-77 will use the "Stealthy mode" in order to keep the stealth of Raptor, which will put some limitation and reduction to the detective range of AN/APG-77.

The test pilots of UK declared that the Captor radar of EF-2000 had "tracked" the targets of MIG-29 and F-4 (RCS: 5~8 m2) at the range of 161~185 km away. According to the formula, it should be able to "track" the target of F-16 class (RCS = 1~2 m2) at the range of 100~130 km away theoretically. And since in general condition, the maximal tracking range of a modern fighter's radar to a certain target is often about 60~70% of its detective range to that target, I think the maximal detective range for Captor to the target of F-16 class shall between the range of 140 to 210 km class, which should be roughly equal, if not more than, the performance of Bars theoretically.

However, the weight of Captor is 193 kg, while the Bars for Su-30MKI is 650 kg...............

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 17:23
by pafpilot
anything in which MKI wins?

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 18:09
by toan
1. Price of course, it is said that the take-off price of Su-30MKI produced by India itself will be less than 30 million USD per fighter, which is just 1/4~1/5 take-off price of F/A-22 today.............

2. The 3D-TVC of Su-30MKI may make it have some advantages over F/A-22 in the flight performance of the situation of extremely high AoA and extremely low speed. However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI..........

3. It seems that Su-30MKI has more internal fuel (10,400 kg) than F/A-22 (8,000~8,300 kg) today, so Su-30MKI may have the longer combat range than F/A-22 in certain circumstances..............

4. The capacity of anti-ship: it seems that USAF won't let F/A-22 do this job, but IAF will equip Brahmos supersonic ASM to Su-30MKI.........

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 20:16
by pafpilot
However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI..........

you mean Raptor loses in a close fight

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 21:21
by LordOfBunnies
No, energy is life in a dogfight (if I remember correctly from some of the other threads on this forum). The Raptor pilot starts with more of both more than likely. He sits far, far above the Sukhoi and is probably going much faster. Therefore, the Raptor pilot will probably start with the advantage. Where the Sukhoi may beat him is in a nose pointing contest at low altitude. No sane Raptor pilot would ever let it get there. Can the Sukhoi win against a Raptor? Yes, but it needs quite a few advantages before it can do it repeatedly.

Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2005, 23:49
by Scorpion1alpha
LordOfBunnies wrote:Where the Sukhoi may beat him is in a nose pointing contest at low altitude.


Negative. I am happy to report that NOTHING beats the F/A-22 Raptor in a dogfight, WVR fight, knife fight, turning fight, whatever you want to call it. Time and time again the Raptor has proven this in tests against some of our very best aircrews, aircrafts, and technologies that's available to them to fight the F/A-22.

No sane Raptor pilot would ever let it get there.


Yep, that's correct. The Raptor will kill the Su-XX, Mig-XX, (insert whatever plane here) well before it evens get to that point. As one Raptor pilot at Tyndall said in an interview, if they ever get to a merge, it is because they ALLOW it to happen.

RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2005, 01:43
by avon1944
F-22 vs Su-30MKI
A lot of people here talk about the invincibility(sp check) of the Su-30MKI.
What if we compare it with the Raptor.Some may argue that the Raptor is stealthy, so lets assume that its not stealthy.


The F-22 is not invincible but, it has a technical advantage over any aircraft being developed that is massive. The F-22 has a 'greater technical advantage' over any aircraft being developed than the F-15A did over its contemporaries! Just look at the combat record of the F-15, so it is not unreasonable to expect the complete dominance of the skies from the F-22. Now does this mean the F-22 will not be shot down ever, if it sees combat that risk is always run of being shot down.

The F-22's performance is superior to the Su-30MKI's in almost every important parameter, acceleration, deceleration, cornering, climbing, cleared for an unlimited AoA (although only +60º to -45º would normally be used), etc.. The F-22 is a true fifth generation aircraft while the Su-30MKI is 4.5 generation aircraft, modified from the last fourth generation aircraft, the Su-27. So while the Su-30 can travel at the speeds of the F-22, it can not hold it for more than a few minutes. Dispite the Su-30MKI's range, in afterburner it is everything but, fuel efficient!

First detection would go to the F-22 which would give it the choice of tactics, to accept or deny combat, etc.. The F-22 leader can allow himself to be detected and lure the Su-30 in a direction that will make an easy kill for the F-22 wingman to kill from an unseen direction! We should not always assume that the F-22 and Su-30MKI would always be just 1V1, it could be 2V4, etc.

The other aspect is that the primary weapon of these two aircraft (the Slammer versus the Adder) gives the significant edge to the F-22.

The F-15 should have lost at least four to six aircraft but, do to the incompetence of the other side none have been shotdown.
Once over the Balkans two F-15C's were approaching two MiG.-29's. The MiG's performed a maneuver which caused the F-15's and AWACS to lose radar contact. The MiG's hid in the weeds. GCI instructed the MiG's to gain altitude and they reached the altitude of the F-15's in WVR! It was a quick draw contest in which the F-15's won.

What if GCI had instructed the MiG's to approach the F-15's from directly underneath or, pop up behind the F-15's, used their IRST to fire and IR missile, the ending would have most likely been different. Or, if Iran had intruded into Saudi airspace with Phoenix Missile armed Tomcats instead of F-4 Phantoms.... again we could have had a different outcome.
An Israeli F-15 was damaged by a Syrian MiG.-23 firing an Alamo Missile. A more accurate missile could have changed the outcome and ruined the F-15's perfect record.

At the beginning of the F-22/F-23 program, the USAF's Air Intelligence, DARPA and, CIA did a study as to assess what the USSR's technical capabilities would be in the time period of 1990 to 2010. The study was based upon the Cold War continuing and it turned out to be very accurate. The specs of the ATF were designed so the F-22 would be superior to anything the USSR could build in this time period. The financial breakdown of the USSR, the need for cash and, them placing some of their best weapon systems on the open market allowed the USA's intelligence services know the accuracies and inaccuracies of that study. The fact that Russia has sold the USAF Su-27's (11/26/95) and MiG.-29's only helps our intelligence community. The Russians have not developed any new aircraft since the country went bankrupt. Only modifications of the MiG.-29 or Su-27. So, the USA knows what the Russian are capable of making and will be able to make for many years.

Many other countries know what the Russian Air Force has also. In 1988, the Japanese Diet (the Japanese Parliment or Congress) paid the USSR $300,000 for two JASDF pilots did undergo training / familiarization / evaluation program in the USSR! Japan wanted to know the capabilities of the Su-27 because it had been causing the Japan Air Defense problems.

Russian aircraft are no mystery to the American Military! Indian avionics are more advance than Russian but, still are not in the class with European or American avionics.

The F-22 has abilities and can use tactics no other aircraft can use at high or low speeds. So with this advantage, why, why would the F-22 use tactics that could be matched by another aircraft? If I were the F-22 I would use the tactics that only the F-22 could do. I want to survive the fight, the thought of a fair fight when I have the advantage is nothing short of foolish! Just kill the fool and go home!

toan wrote:It seems that Su-30MKI has more internal fuel


Yes but the F-22's engines are far more fuel efficient in and out of afterburners.

"Stealthy mode" in order to keep the stealth of Raptor, which will put some limitation and reduction to the detective range of AN/APG-77


The USAF has decided to reduce the range of the AN/APG-77 from 120 miles down to 108 miles. They figure it will allow a significant reduction in output power and make the signal seem even more like random background noise.

While the USAF is not going to use the F-22 to sink ships, it will make sure that US aircraft will face no aerial opposition. That is the mission of the F-22.

Price of course, it is said that the take-off price of Su-30MKI produced by India itself will be less than 30 million USD per fighter, which is just 1/4~1/5 take-off price of F/A-22 today...


If my grandson had to fly into combat in one of these two aircraft, I would want him in the F-22. It would his best chance to get home. Me paying lower taxes or my country saving money will not mean much to me especially, if I knew better technology would bring him home.... spend the damn money!!!

Adrian

Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2005, 14:50
by toan
pafpilot wrote:
However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI.....


you mean Raptor loses in a close fight


No, there are many factors that will affect the result of dogfight, with the help of 3D-TVC, Su-30MKI may have some equalities to , or even some advantages over, F/A-22 in some of them. I think that F/A-22 is still superior than Su-30 MKI in WVR combat, but the gap between them in WVR combat shall be much less than the gap between them in BVR combat. And the clever pilot shouldn't take such a risk if he can terminate the enemy fighter several times in BVR combat...

RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2005, 22:36
by The_Mastiff
The USAF has decided to reduce the range of the AN/APG-77 from 120 miles down to 108 miles. They figure it will allow a significant reduction in output power and make the signal seem even more like random background noise.


Do you have a source for this classified information?
----------------------
Is there anywhere I can read about the event in which you described:
Once over the Balkans two F-15C's were approaching two MiG.-29's. The MiG's performed a maneuver which caused the F-15's and AWACS to lose radar contact. The MiG's hid in the weeds. GCI instructed the MiG's to gain altitude and they reached the altitude of the F-15's in WVR! It was a quick draw contest in which the F-15's won.



you mean Raptor loses in a close fight


Pafpilot, our air force typically will try to avoid WVR fighting not so much because they think some other countries super deadly aircraft might out turn or BFM them but because the current crop of close in heaters and HMS are so good. They feel pretty much they can win one on one in BVR with their training and their HMS/9X combo but what about other aircraft that could be killing you with a no escape zone shot while you are busy dogfighting the red baron. It doesn't make sense to get in that furball especially as your systems give you the advantage at BVR. They are very well trained and equipped for it should it arise, but why do it if it's not necessessary?

People that talk about which aircraft can out dogfight which are kind of missing the boat when it comes to modern policy in western type air forces. Despite that it seems to be a favorite topic to discuss. JL raleigh NC

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2005, 02:26
by Scorpion1alpha
there are many factors that will affect the result of dogfight


And variables. Coupled with the modern day weapons that is available, are the reasons why nobody would really want to be in a knife fight if they don't have to.



with the help of 3D-TVC, Su-30MKI may have some equalities to , or even some advantages over, F/A-22 in some of them.


I can understand why some people would think that "3D" TV nozzels would make something more maneuverable than a "2D" TV nozzel would. The truth is there are also other factors that equates to the performance of an aircraft, in this case maneuverability.

The Raptor is the first production fighter with thrust vectoring built in from the outset. It was never looked at as an after thought, slapped-on accessory such as the Sukhois and Migs (and possibly the Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, or any other "4th or 4.5 gen" fighters in the future). The combination of the Raptor's aerodynamics, huge wing, large/powerful control surfaces (which you can see), coupled with the most advanced flight control system, computing power (and other features that you can't see) results in the Raptor from the outset to outmaneuver ANYBODY now and for the forseeable future by a WIDE margin. That is how it was designed.

Hey Mastiff, see you been on this board a while now. I've been visiting this board on and off for a while now and just recently decided to join. Sure is different than the other board isn't it?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2005, 07:58
by The_Mastiff
Yeah it sure is. I lurked here for at least a year and a half before my first post. This site is a true resource with all the Crew Chiefs, Pilots and forces of nature like Gums. Long live F16.net! :cheers: JL Raleigh NC

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2005, 14:20
by elp
What makes the MKI is after the French ( Sagem ) work it over ( avionics add ons ).

As for a comparison, if you are talking air domination, there is none.

Would be nice working together as a team though. The ultimate hot setup would be not an MKI but a ( license built ) SU-35 ( 1 crewperson ) in U.S. service with U.S. avionics and sensors and weps. One reason there IS a SU-30, is that RU-tech could not make an avionics suite that could do both air-to-air and complex air-to-ground with ONE crew person. Something we have been doing for years. Hence when you see an A2G big SU..... it's going to be a 2 man cockpit. Ru-tech tried a multi-role cockpit in the SU-35. In their own words.... "it was a negative experience"... :o

Call me when you have a SU-35 with a SNIPER-XR pod and the abilty to carry a blizzard of J-weps. To do this, first thing you to is get a SU-35 and yank out ALL the wiring like what was done to the F-15 at the depot when it was upgraded to carry more advance A2A weapons. At the end of the day you have the jet sitting there with a pile of wiring, ready for the new wiring to be installed. :lol:

F-22 vs SU-30MKI - Can we count on a fair fight?

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2010, 20:26
by akcoyote
In all the comments and opinions of this face off and others like it, I haven't seen anyone address the 'politics of war' and their impact on tactics and doctrine.

Those of us who recall Vietnam can only speculate on the number of planes and pilots lost because of the ROE which did not allow BVR engagements. Combined with the doctrine that the US would never engage in knife fights and therefore didn't need guns or WVR training, it handicapped US aircrews immensely.

Don't fall into the trap of optimism, this sort of thinking can (and likely will be) repeated.

Our aircraft including the F-22 now have guns, but training is constantly threatened by budgets and we have a decreasing number of combat veterans in both political office and the military.

Have to admit that I am always suspicious and concerned when REMFs start dictating tactics and ROE.

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 19:37
by omkarmoghe
One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 20:32
by skicountry
omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


I know this has been beat to death but I might add that air superiority is not just about sending fighters up against fighters. It is about bombing the heck out of enemy airfields, C3 sites, POL facilities, IADS and the like. That way, if they manage to get airborne, you’ve got them coming at you disoriented, low on gas, low on weapons and scared to death.

A quantitatively superior force can be defeated piecemeal through the judicious massing of power or the achievement of localized pockets of air superiority. Just because the enemy has 5 times as many fighters as you do, does not mean that every fight will reflect that ratio. On the contrary, if you employ your forces imaginatively, it won’t!

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 22:44
by exec
omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


Ok, let me think:
1. Su-30MKI price ~50 mln $
2. F-22 price ~ 143 mln $

Military budget:

1. India ~32 bln $
2. Russia ~40 bln $
3. USA ~ 668 bln

So I'd rather say that if needed US can rise 4 to 5 F-22's for every single Su-30MKI. :roll:

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 23:19
by Scorpion1alpha
omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22.


Yet, have they?

omkarmoghe wrote:Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off.


Oh, but I will say because that is about how 90-95% of the adversaries will be destroyed by the F-22. Notice I wrote adversary plural which leads me to...

omkarmoghe wrote:Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


Which allow me to get into the psychological aspect of aerial combat a little.

Let's say you have your 4-ship of Su-30MKIs flying around on CAP for whatever reason. Let's also assume your MKIs have all the support it wants (GCI, ground and AWACS support etc) and to sweeten the deal, flying over your turf (heavily defended with SAMs of your choice).

Now let's use 1 F-22 roaming around...

The MKIs and it's support never sees the single F-22 (the advantage of high degree of stealth built-in). With it's superior speed and maneuverability, it can place itself in a position of advantage easily and with it's advanced intergrated avionics, make that tactical decision easily and quickly.

Now the F-22 has 6 AMRAAMs internally and fires off a few and takes out...oh, let's say 2 of your comrades...right of the bat. You and your wingman survive the initial onslaught somehow.

What do you think you and your buddy would feel as you see 2 of your friends just blown of of the sky by something you or anybody else on your side never even saw? Never even knew was around? Do you think you just lost 2 MKIs or, more importantly, 4 of your friends? Do you feel anger and want to avenge their deaths by trying to find something you can't find or do you think you'll loose the will to fight, turn and fly home scared sh!tless as the realization sets in that now you might be facing the F-22 and he's still got some AMRAAMs left and maybe deciding whether or not he wants to take you out too?

We didn't use the F-22 during Operation Iraqi Freedom, but ask the Iraqi Air Force during that time as see how many of them wanted to tangle with our older 4th Gen fighters like the F-15 & F-16. Oh yeah, that's right, they didn't even bother sending up any fighters and preferred to bury them in the sand.

Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 01:39
by deadseal
Sniper69 wrote:The 30 would still have a tough time because the Raptor has TV, and the heater/helmet combo.(If it gets that close). And if they make that Ramjet AMRAAM, the Raptor would be able to reach out and touch him from a more comfortable distance. Does the MKI have TV or the option for it?




Raptors dont have hmcs....also the raptor still has a longer stick than the the aa-10c. The su-30 would get smoked. What the hell is with all these f-22 v ?? KNow one really knows the capes of a raptor except the dudes who fly it and they ain't posting thier -1 stuff on the web. The f-22 is invincible because it can throw missles longer than anyone and NOT get targeted at range in return. You do the math.

RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 09:44
by dokhla
BVR the F-22 with Aim-120D will kill the su-30mki, but wont be that easy even in BVR, the su-30mki has lots of fuel and a very good Israeli self protection system, first shot first kill might not suffice. the mki has lots of acceleration and enough gas to run. In dog fight the Mki holds an advantage, it has true super manueverability. Now when the F-18SH block 2 could get a gun kill on the f-22 i am sure the Mki wont have any problem. The Raptor pilot shouldnt underestimate the Mki and kill from as far as possible, up close the Mki will have a distinct advantage. the Mki will soon also recieve the R-77M ramjet missile with a range of over 170km, the mki can also fire the KS-172S awacs killer with range of over 300km. the Mki can also soon fire the deadliest cruise missile in the world , the brahmos with a top speed of mach 3.

Not to forget the Mki also has OLS with a IRST max. range of 90km, the F-22 will be detected passively at over 80km away. The mki will also start receiving new upgrades which talk about lower rcs, smart skin sensors, AESA radr and new weapons by 2014. Though the f-22 is the deadliest bird of prey, it must stay as far and as quiet as possible to remain effective. The US should also develope new weapons like supersonic and hypersonic missiles that can deployed from the Raptor. the platform no matter how effective is useless without the right weapons. and i think the f-22 is capable of so much more, if they just create newer, faster and deadlier weapons.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 11:21
by geogen
akcoyote - Don't fall into the trap of optimism, this sort of thinking can (and likely will be) repeated.


'Over optimism' is indeed a potential trap which can easily be fallen into - especially during unexpected opening day, 2nd day scenarios/tactical surprises which don't go like text-book, agreed and noted.

skicountry - A quantitatively superior force can be defeated piecemeal through the judicious massing of power or the achievement of localized pockets of air superiority. Just because the enemy has 5 times as many fighters as you do, does not mean that every fight will reflect that ratio. On the contrary, if you employ your forces imaginatively, it won’t!


That basically sums up very eloquently in support of above statement quoted of poster akcoyote, as it can definitely go both ways. Well stated and noted.

------------------------------

dokhla- True, your viewpoint certainly summarizes the long thrashed debate over F-22 vs Su-30xx. Certain details within your post will always be nitpicked to death over precise ranges and angles/directions determining ranges and exact tactics used and overall performance specs in both weapons and aircrafts of course.. I won't go there, but wanted to reply that many will fully concur with your sentiments re: not squeaking by in the modernized weapons department for the F-22. For example Increment 3.2, perhaps by 2015(?) being expected introduction into service of AIM-120D and AIM-9x... a completely flawed aspect of spiral development plan, no dobut. By then there should be a Ramjet powered IIR dual mode AMRAAM for Raptor in addition to an extended head-on range WVR dogfight missile, I mean let's get real. Couldn't agree more with you there too.

In closing, one could be pretty satisfied and confident that Raptor will never tangle with the super IAF-MKI in anger (let alone vs a hot flying Super Hornet in guns). :wink: That is a fortunate thing. Too much opportunity and mutual interest for us all through the ups and downs. Cheers -

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 12:49
by Pilotasso
One thing I dont get it, is because just because the MKI alegely has 3D thrust vectoring and long range SARH missiles people think there will be 1 raptor downed for every few MKI's. If you cant see the raptor from long range, then the flanker cannot fire its (rather old) SARH missiles. If the MKI is shot first, it cannot use its thrust vectoring to adbvantage in close quarters. Also, MKI's TVC is V shaped, not 3D, so basicaly on par with that on the raptor. There is no 3D TVC aircraft actualy fielded in service, and the MKI doesnt have a faster turn rate than the raptor.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 14:38
by exec
dokhla wrote: the mki has lots of acceleration and enough gas to run.

True, but it's still not the same league as the F-22.
Su-30MKI T/W ratio (50% fuel + 2klb AAM) = 1,02
F-22 T/W ratio (50% fuel plus 2kbl AAM) = 1,26+

dokhla wrote: In dog fight the Mki holds an advantage, it has true super manueverability.

Where do you see that advantage??


dokhla wrote:Now when the F-18SH block 2 could get a gun kill on the f-22 i am sure the Mki wont have any problem.

Are you serious? F-18 got one kill, but was probably killed hundreds of times by the F-22.

F-22 operates at high altitudes (60 000 ft) and it's aerodynamics are designed to achieve supermaneuverability at high altitudes, MKIs are not designed to operate at such high altitudes. Second thing - not only MKI has lower T/W ratio (less energy - worse maneuverability), but it's engines are not designed to deliver high thrust at high altitudes. So - the higher MKI gets, the greater disadvantage in T/W ratio.

And the most important thing - MKI probably will not be able to get to Raptor's operating altitude, so there will be no dogfight at all!

This is not the same league - F-22 has the advantage in every area.

dokhla wrote:up close the Mki will have a distinct advantage.

Distinct disadvantage.

dokhla wrote: the Mki will soon also recieve the R-77M ramjet missile with a range of over 170km

R-77M is supposed to be 70% longer ranged than the non-ramjet R-77, right?
We now know that AIM-120A/B has a range like 20-30% greater than R-77. We know that in C-5 and C-7 version this range has been increased. We don't know exactly how much, but let's say that they've increased the range by 5% in each version, and we know that in D version range has been increased by 50%. So AIM-120D range is 98-115% greater than non-ramjet R-77 and 16-24% geater than R-77M (ramjet version). You have to remember that Raptor has a speed and altitude advantage which means longer missiles range.

dokhla wrote: the mki can also fire the KS-172S awacs killer with range of over 300km.
No, MKI can't fire KS-172, becouse as for now there is no such missile:
deagel.com wrote:As of 2007, the AAM-L seems to have been discarded for the Su-35 program and its development may had been cancelled or put on-hold.


dokhla wrote:the Mki can also soon fire the deadliest cruise missile in the world , the brahmos with a top speed of mach 3.

Anti-raptor brah-mos? :lol:

dokhla wrote:Not to forget the Mki also has OLS with a IRST max. range of 90km, the F-22 will be detected passively at over 80km away.

Come on.... You know that this is not true? I have the OLS-35 specs (upgraded and much newer version of the OLS-30)

Image


What do we have here? 35km head on detection range? Do you know that you can achieve such range only under perfect weather conditions? So let's think - max range for OLS-30 is probably between 25 and 30km, add a little wind, atmospheric turbulances, wind, humidity, some clouds and detection range will drop to ~15-20km.



dokhla wrote:The US should also develope new weapons like supersonic and hypersonic missiles that can deployed from the Raptor. the platform no matter how effective is useless without the right weapons. and i think the f-22 is capable of so much more, if they just create newer, faster and deadlier weapons.

The US already has the fastes/deadliest anti-fighter weapons.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 16:01
by Neno
At this point (talking of near future's weapons), we could also look at ABL shooting down enemies 500+ km away....

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 17:54
by delta-shred
To add my two cents...
I think one thing that many people don't understand about missiles and kinematic ranges is that yes while a Chuck has the range of about 80mi (130km) it need a radar that will SEE that far out to employ the missile....employment ranges (Rmax1) and Kinematic ranges are two VERY different things.
In regards to the BARS radar on the MKI...yes, its the most advanced Russian Radar in service right now but its still only a PESA radar...it only has one beam that can be mechanically and electronically steered where as an AESA radar, every nodule is sending out a beam meaning ALOT better picture quality, range and not alot of background clutter. The BARS still does not come close to the detection ranges of an APG-63(V)2 or 3 so yes, we still have the advantage in BVR with the 120 against the Adder and Alamo. And even there the MKI has a problem...yes it can employ up to 4 Adders at a time against separate targets, it still needs to go into Single Target Track to employ a Chuck because the SAR needs the CW Illumination.

The MKI is a HUGE plane (as we all know) and has an enormous RCS I can't go into details but I can tell you that an MKI with 4-10C and 4-11's has an RCS of greater than 50m^2 without any jamming profiles active (yes I dumbed down the number alot). Now you tell me...even with a jamming pod active, how far out do you think the F-22 will be able to pick this aircraft up? And yes, the numbers for the AIM-120 are VERY conservative and we will be able to shoot first.

The TVC does not give the MKI any advantage in a turning fight with a Raptor...the Raptor can still out turn the MKI (23 deg vs 28+ sustained) and we are only deploying the AIM-9x in theater and that has a significant advantage over the Archer and Aim-9M.

In regards to the IRSTS (OLS-30 and 35) if you read the brochure that Exec posted you'll notice that the detection ranges for an airborne target are against a SU-30 which has a huge IR and RCS signature so no doubt it can detect it at 90 and 35km away! Against a fighter size target (1m^2 or even 3m^2) I highly doubt it will be able to pick it up inside of 7nm...and guess what...the Raptor has an even smaller RCS and IR signature than 1m^2! So I don't know what Dokhla is thinking but there is no way an MKI will be able to passively detect a Raptor or for that matter Eagle or Viper at 80km.

I really wish I could go into the weeds on this stuff and give actual numbers and ranges because what one finds on the internet is really sad and laughable. If anyone takes anything away from this just keep in mind that kinematic range and actual employment ranges are two different things...you have to be able to see what you are shooting at. And also, like it has been said on here time and again, when it comes down to the actual fight, hours of training and flight time will most def be the determining factor.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 18:50
by Pilotasso
This R-77M keeps on being mentioned, when it was canceled more than 10 years ago.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2010, 22:32
by singularity
You know, what I find to be laughable is that Russkie fan boys believe the bullsh!t that they spew!! "blah blah blah, our A/C can shoot down an F-22 at 1XX km away with a .22 cal rifle.." The poor believers "wow! I cant believe it! Su-30 blah blah blah is so amazing!" here is an example of fine russian story telling: http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancou ... oly,221408

Given the fact that Putin himself is involved only says so much about their credibilty.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2010, 14:06
by wrightwing
dokhla wrote: In dog fight the Mki holds an advantage, it has true super manueverability.

As does the Raptor, which has higher sustained/instantaneous turn rates, T/W ratios, ceiling, acceleration, etc..
Now when the F-18SH block 2 could get a gun kill on the f-22 i am sure the Mki wont have any problem.

If you'd care to read about that "gun kill" you'll note that the F-18 pilot violated the ROE for the exercise, and the F-22 pilot had already disengaged. Hardly a conclusive outcome to say the least.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2010, 14:25
by shep1978
singularity wrote:You know, what I find to be laughable is that Russkie fan boys believe the bullsh!t that they spew!! "blah blah blah, our A/C can shoot down an F-22 at 1XX km away with a .22 cal rifle.." The poor believers "wow! I cant believe it! Su-30 blah blah blah is so amazing!" here is an example of fine russian story telling: http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancou ... oly,221408

Given the fact that Putin himself is involved only says so much about their credibilty.


I recall vividly when the Su-35 was shown to the public many children on various aviation sites were claiming it could easily take on the F-22 as the Russsians had said it was more than a match for the F-22... :roll:
I still laugh to myself about it because if the Flanker was so superior to the F-22 than why on earth were they pinning all of their hopes (and dreams) on the PAK-FAG?
:lol: :wink:

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2010, 22:49
by singularity
LOL....wasn't the Flanker supposed to be a match for the F-15....

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 00:45
by henshao
How about the F-15 ACTIVE vs a non-stealthy F-22? Wouldn't this be the exact same argument? Or how about the F-102/105/106 vs the F-15? Same argument again?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 02:52
by delta-shred
henshao wrote:How about the F-15 ACTIVE vs a non-stealthy F-22? Wouldn't this be the exact same argument? Or how about the F-102/105/106 vs the F-15? Same argument again?


Dude...how about a P-51 vs a F-22! Can someone say Gun kill!?!?!

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 03:16
by singularity
delta-shred wrote:
henshao wrote:How about the F-15 ACTIVE vs a non-stealthy F-22? Wouldn't this be the exact same argument? Or how about the F-102/105/106 vs the F-15? Same argument again?


Dude...how about a P-51 vs a F-22! Can someone say Gun kill!?!?!


No way man, my uncle shot down a F-22 last week with his BB gun! Pfft, the P-51 wouldnt waste its time on an F-22 :shock:

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 19:37
by Scorpion1alpha
singularity wrote:here is an example of fine russian story telling: http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancou ... oly,221408


:lmao:

Oh man, I know this is off topic but man, that had me laughing hard!

What the hell is a "Platinum Medal"?!? Plushenko wins the silver medal at the Vancouver Games but somehow he thinks he deserves this all-elusive "Platinum Medal" so he awards it to himself?!?

Vanity and delusion at its finest.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2019, 17:17
by zero-one
Biased but very informative, just take it with a grain of salt. It isn't exactly against the F-22, they focused more against another Stealth aircraft, the J-20

-J-20 was tracked the whole time while flying in the Himalayas (17:30 mark)
Onwards they talk about how the Su-30MKI is far superior to the J-20 and the Rafale only makes the IAF overkill.

-Su-30MKI is now equipped with a "better" AESA radar compared to the J-20 (18:08

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 06:42
by skyward
Don't really matter what radar they have on the su-30mki, till they have better long range missile then what they have right now.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 09:00
by zero-one
They're about to get the Meteor which is claimed to be the best BVRAAM in the world. And I would agree to an extent.
But again, No kills have ever been successful at close to max missile ranges. Kills have always been made within 50km,

IIRC, most BVR kills are within 15 Km. So the question should be, what is the best weapon for engaging targets within the 50km bubble. Stealth vs Stealth and/or a highly ECM saturated environment will only make this harder.
The video shows what India thinks of their Su-30s,

Couldn't help but cringe when the guy said it was the most maneuverable aircraft in the world, only the Su-35 was slightly better and that the Canards are used to reduce drag and increase lift.... Are those canards lift loaded when in idle position, do they create lift when turning? how about trim drag, I suppose the Canards create them too right? Any clarification would be appreciated.

I think a Su-27 SM3 which has the same engine and no canards will be more maneuverable specially in the high subsonic area. So will a Typhoon, F-15C, F-16C, F-35 and F-22, I'm still waiting for Sprts's latest assessment before I make a conclusion.

The MKI's TVC is manually operated, so I guess the pilot can choose to use it whenever he wants, but doing so will make i loose speed and drop like a rock,

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 10:05
by swiss
zero-one wrote:-Su-30MKI is now equipped with a "better" AESA radar compared to the J-20 (18:08


The Su-30 MKI as PESA not a ASEA Radar.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 11:01
by zero-one
swiss wrote:The Su-30 MKI as PESA not a ASEA Radar.


Thats also what I thought
But if you watch the video and go to the time stamp I posted, you'll hear them say it.
They even said the Su-30 "used to have a passive radar system"

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 11:06
by juretrn
Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 15:52
by mixelflick
How the latest skirmish went down between PAK F-16's and Indian MKI's should tell you all you need to know...

The F-16's fired off their AMRAAM's and the MKI's had to go defensive to evade. They did not return fire, probably because they either couldn't find or couldn't hit the F-16's with their current missiles. That's the best case scenario, if you're rooting for India. The worst case is the PAK claim of downing one of those MKI's is true.

Either way, it was a terrible showing for the supposed MKI "Super-fighter". India knew it too, because they're hot on radar and weapons upgrades, to make sure this doesn't happen again. They also sacked whoever was in charge of the air war, and the Indian PM made sure to mention how the whole fiasco under-scored how badly they needed the Rafale. Sure, there's probably some politics at play there, but still - couldn't have inspired too much confidence in the MKI community.

So if the MKI got out-punched by some export variant of the F-16, how's it going to do against the F-22 again? The answer is rather obvious. India would be much better served to pursue the F-35, it's only true hope of countering the Chinese J-20 (and perhaps JC-31)...

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 16:01
by garrya
zero-one wrote:Biased but very informative, just take it with a grain of salt. It isn't exactly against the F-22, they focused more against another Stealth aircraft, the J-20

-J-20 was tracked the whole time while flying in the Himalayas (17:30 mark)
Onwards they talk about how the Su-30MKI is far superior to the J-20 and the Rafale only makes the IAF overkill.

-Su-30MKI is now equipped with a "better" AESA radar compared to the J-20 (18:08

I can't see how that video is informative? It seem like a combination of propaganda and red hearing, the alleged " J-20 tracking" story is questionable at best and likely a completely fabrication, even if they they did managed to track it, we don't even know the exact load out of J-20 at that point. What if they tracked this:
E4EAF92C-3800-4FB1-88FF-B69CCEA89A19.jpeg

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 16:39
by mixelflick
Ditto, I was just about to post the same..

There are several possibilities..

1.) The MKI tracked the J-20 with ease, given it's a stealth failure
2.) The MKI tracked the J-20, albeit while flying with external tanks/lunberg lens equivalent
3.) The MKI didn't track jack, the whole story is dis-information

What telling is how they're proceeding: They aren't making any overtures to acquire stealth aircraft of their own. True, Russia offered the SU-57 (again), but that was un-solicited. If in fact they have been able to track the J-20 with ease and regularly, that of course would be welcome information to American sources. Personally, I think US intelligence is still in the dark as to its VLO/LO status, and just making assumptions. The F-117's flying are probably being used as stealth "red air", given their similar strike role. I'm betting their RCS is an order of magnitude lower than the J-20's though, so it's probably good insurance the 117 mimics it.

I'm betting the Mig-35 will win their current fighter aircraft competition, given the maintain strong ties to Russia. The SU-35 is supposedly in the running, but too expensive to field in the numbers required. The Super Hornet would make a lot of sense, but then again it'd be the first US fighter they've fielded. Ditto for the F-16V/F-21, and it has the additional handicap PAK flies them. More Rafale's are unlikely, given their cost and the current # of machines India says it needs.

When are they supposed to pull the trigger?

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 18:29
by zero-one
garrya wrote:I can't see how that video is informative? It seem like a combination of propaganda and red hearing


It depends on how you will take the information given.
For example, the alleged claim that the Su-30MKI now uses AESA which is allegedly better than Chinese AESA radars.
You can take it as propaganda or you can take it as recently declasifed information that hasn't made its way to Wikipedia or other common sources yet

The tracking of the J-20, I actually had other questions about that. Like how did they know it was a J-20 in the first place, is their threat recognition library that advanced now that the radar knows the J-20's signature from other aircraft signatures? Or were they tracking it through optical means or at the same time? Was it carrying Luny lenses?
On the other hand, it could also be that their radars can really just track the J-20.
You can take that as Propaganda or truth.

Personally I'm on the fence on this one, Its tempting to dismiss this as just propaganda but on the other hand I'm telling myself that if an F-22 or F-35 pilot said they can track the J-20 with no issues, I'd probably believe them in a heartbeat.
I'm not ready to give the IAF that kind of confidence yet, but I'm not going to dismiss their claims that easily as well unless I can get more info on it. I'm undecided on it.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 02:56
by Corsair1963
The Su-30MKI didn't track a clean J-20. Anymore than India shot down an F-16 last February............. :?

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 08:24
by zero-one
Its one thing to discredit the statements of the IAF without any evidence
and another thing to make up alternate scenarios without evidence as well.

A while back a USAF officer (can't remember who) said that the F-35 can detect adversary 5th gens much further (10 times further IIRC) than it can be detected by them. If you believed that with no questions like I did, why dispute the IAF's claims?

Is it just because they're Indians?
Granted that they have not yet earned the type of credentials that the US, UK, France or even other Asian neighbors like S.Korea, Japan has. But I'm not going to dismiss their claims just yet (I don't necessarily believe it either, just on the fence)

Their F-16 kill claim is disputable because there is counter evidence against it and frankly the counter evidence outweighs their "evidence" that they shot it down.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 09:06
by garrya
zero-one wrote:It depends on how you will take the information given.
For example, the alleged claim that the Su-30MKI now uses AESA which is allegedly better than Chinese AESA radars.
You can take it as propaganda or you can take it as recently declasifed information that hasn't made its way to Wikipedia or other common sources yet

IMHO, I take that as propaganda. Indian hasn't demonstrated that their technology is even close to China, and there is no way for them to know how good is J-20, so his statement is nothing but chest pump

zero-one wrote:The tracking of the J-20, I actually had other questions about that. Like how did they know it was a J-20 in the first place, is their threat recognition library that advanced now that the radar knows the J-20's signature from other aircraft signatures? Or were they tracking it through optical means or at the same time? Was it carrying Luny lenses?
On the other hand, it could also be that their radars can really just track the J-20.
You can take that as Propaganda or truth.
Personally I'm on the fence on this one, Its tempting to dismiss this as just propaganda but on the other hand I'm telling myself that if an F-22 or F-35 pilot said they can track the J-20 with no issues, I'd probably believe them in a heartbeat.
I'm not ready to give the IAF that kind of confidence yet, but I'm not going to dismiss their claims that easily as well unless I can get more info on it. I'm undecided on it.

Most of the time, I judge the credibility of a statement base on the amount of evidence that supports it rather than who said it. There isn't enough evidence to support their statement then I won't believe them.
I know that if F-22 or F-35 said they track J-20 from 300 km with their radar, I will call BS.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 09:25
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:Its one thing to discredit the statements of the IAF without any evidence
and another thing to make up alternate scenarios without evidence as well.

A while back a USAF officer (can't remember who) said that the F-35 can detect adversary 5th gens much further (10 times further IIRC) than it can be detected by them. If you believed that with no questions like I did, why dispute the IAF's claims?

Is it just because they're Indians?
Granted that they have not yet earned the type of credentials that the US, UK, France or even other Asian neighbors like S.Korea, Japan has. But I'm not going to dismiss their claims just yet (I don't necessarily believe it either, just on the fence)

Their F-16 kill claim is disputable because there is counter evidence against it and frankly the counter evidence outweighs their "evidence" that they shot it down.



Maybe this.... :|

QUOTE:

Today's enemies, al Qaeda and the Taliban, pose no threat to American jets. But Welsh is worried about more powerful rivals.

Mark Welsh: We're not the only ones who understand that going to this next generation of capability in a fighter aircraft is critical to survive in the future of battle space and so others are going, notably now the Chinese, the Russians, and we'll see more of that in the future.

And this is what the competition looks like -- the Russian T-50 and China's J-20 Stealth Fighter. According to Welsh, they are more than a match for today's fighters.

Mark Welsh: If you take any older fighter like our existing aircraft and you put it nose to nose in, in a contested environment with a newer fighter, it will die.

David Martin: And it will die because?

Mark Welsh: It will die before it even knows it's even in a fight.

In aerial combat, the plane that shoots first wins, so it all comes down to detecting the enemy before he detects you. The F-35's combination of information technology and stealth would give American pilots what Marine Lt. Gen. Robert Schmidle describes as an astounding advantage in combat.

Robert Schmidle: I shouldn't get into the exact ranges because those ranges are classified, but what I can tell you is that the range at which you can detect the enemy as opposed to when he can detect you can be as much as 10 times further when you'll see him before he'll ever see you and down to five times...

David Martin: I want to nail that down here. If the F-35 was going up against another stealth aircraft of the kind that other countries are working on today, it would be able still to detect that aircraft at five to 10 times the range?

Robert Schmidle: You would be safe in assuming that you could detect that airplane at considerably longer distances than that airplane could detect you.

The F-35's radars, cameras and antennas would scan for 360 degrees around the plane searching for threats and projecting, for example, the altitude and speed of an enemy aircraft, onto the visor of a helmet custom-fitted to each pilot's head.

It is so top-secret no one without a security clearance has ever been allowed to see what it can do...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-60-mi ... id-martin/

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 10:48
by zero-one
garrya wrote:Most of the time, I judge the credibility of a statement base on the amount of evidence that supports it rather than who said it. There isn't enough evidence to support their statement then I won't believe them.
I know that if F-22 or F-35 said they track J-20 from 300 km with their radar, I will call BS.


Thats fair and thats what I'm trying to do as well.
When both India and Serbia says they can detect Stealth, I instinctively put more weight on India's statements. The economy is a big factor, more money means more defense spending, equals more R&D etc...Of course we need to factor in India's large armed forces which could spread her defense budget thinner.

Anyway, India's indigenous radar technology is catching up, their 1st fighter AESA 'Uttam' is already nearing operational status.
but I think their best bet is with Russian and Israeli radar tech, they're probably doing more to keep Russian defense contractors afloat than any other export partner (besides Russia of course). They pretty much have all of Russia's most high end toys and some of them have been further improved with French and Israeli tech.

If forced to guess which system India could use to track a J-20, there are a few possibilities that come to mind
1. EL/W-2090 AESA equiped AEWACS. Perhaps networked with other AEWACS or Ground bassed units.
2. AESA is said to have increased capability in detecting LO platforms. India has a number of AESA equipped systems, (DRDO AEWACS, EL/W-2090, SPYDER SAM and now the Su-30MKI is claimed to have it)

India's AFNET system can link multiple airborne and ground based systems to their central command structure, I'm not sure if it also allows them to share information with each other (can Su-30s receive targeting information from SPYDER) if they can, then its quite possible that multiple ground and air based AESA systems were used to track the J-20.


Again, despite all this, I am still not 100% convinced

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 14:34
by swiss
juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 15:27
by milosh
swiss wrote:
juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials


There isn't Zhuk radar in any Flanker so I really doubt AESA version of that radar will be Flanker upgrade. What will be offered is variant of N036 (Su-57 radar) but Russians now aren't keen to offer it to India as Flanker upgrade when India isn't partner in PAK-FA program. I wouldn't be suprise to see N035M as option for Su-30MKI (upgraded Su-35 radar)

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 15:48
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:The F-117's flying are probably being used as stealth "red air", given their similar strike role. I'm betting their RCS is an order of magnitude lower than the J-20's though, so it's probably good insurance the 117 mimics it.


https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/f ... k=_TZYxfez

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 16:18
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Early F-35As are also being used as Red Air now.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 20:03
by swiss
milosh wrote:
swiss wrote:
juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials


There isn't Zhuk radar in any Flanker so I really doubt AESA version of that radar will be Flanker upgrade. What will be offered is variant of N036 (Su-57 radar) but Russians now aren't keen to offer it to India as Flanker upgrade when India isn't partner in PAK-FA program. I wouldn't be suprise to see N035M as option for Su-30MKI (upgraded Su-35 radar)


According to this site the Zhuk-AME is an option for the Su-30 MKI

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/19625 ... VG2zC1XZTY

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 23:00
by disconnectedradical
I call BS on the Indian claim of detecting J-20 especially from that distance. From what I've seen Indian Air Force has habit of chest beating.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 02:03
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:I call BS on the Indian claim of detecting J-20 especially from that distance. From what I've seen Indian Air Force has habit of chest beating.



Bad habit they likely picked up from their Russian Friends. Nonetheless, many are waking up and moving on.... :wink:

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 07:26
by zero-one
Or maybe the J-20's stealth isn't really all that to begin with

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 10:01
by boilermaker
zero-one wrote:
garrya wrote:)

India's AFNET system can link multiple airborne and ground based systems to their central command structure, I'm not sure if it also allows them to share information with each other (can Su-30s receive targeting information from SPYDER) if they can, then its quite possible that multiple ground and air based AESA systems were used to track the J-20.


Again, despite all this, I am still not 100% convinced


Does their AFNET shares also with the enemy, because I hear the Pakistanis were listening to their fresh communications as India did not have encryption nor jam and evesdropping proof frequency hopping on their radios.

Hence they are scrambling to buy from Israel this type of secure com technology now.

India has some glaring deficiencies in their equipment and it is almost like we let them play obviously at Cope India, or maybe even spied on them. The Pakistanies were ready and whooped their a$%es.

So that story of the J20 teasing them should be taken with a grain of salt, because it is likely the Chinese did that on purpose to gather intel on their own capabilities, playing on their ego.

https://www.weaponews.com/news/65353389 ... ommun.html

Ans this article seem to indicate their data sharing is not secure either...

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... ets/461569

So the Chinese were probably watching what the Indians were watching with the SU30, ie their own J20...

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 16:02
by zero-one
boilermaker wrote:So the Chinese were probably watching what the Indians were watching with the SU30, ie their own J20...

Well thats a lot of Faith on what the Chinese can do?

At least India buys their tech from Russia, Israel, France and even the US.
China mostly relies on reverse engineered Russian stuff and stolen Israeli/American tech.
China has a little more money but India has more defense cooperation and tech transfer agreements.
Frankly I'd put a slight edge on India's capabilities a bit more.

I'm not saying its impossible, but not even China herself is claiming they have that capability, so there is absolutely no basis for us to speculate that they can.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 02:52
by weasel1962
Specifically, the Su-30mki uses a Russian AESA radar coupled with R-27, R-77 and R-73 missiles. The HUD is Israeli. The RWR is indigeneous. it carries a EL-8222 SPJ which appears to have been proven against F-16 fired AIM-120C-5s during the recent balakot engagement.

The J-20 uses an AESA radar which is Chinese in origin and developed from the original KLJ-7 radar that equipped the J-10. Its easy to over-estimate Chinese capability to "steal" and under-estimate NG's capability to defend its IP but generic design of how AESA radar works is not exactly beyond the capability of most nations to develop. Whether it is the same or even close to the capability of western/Israeli radars is another matter (unlikely). There are some metric the Chinese can match or exceed e.g. power rating but....

...similar to what the Su-30mki had a reported issue with are things like resolution. The Bars radar had difficulty with long range identification (hence its most effective weapon is still the R-73). That is a function of computing power/software which is also a sign of the age in which the radar was built. Even the Russians have upgraded that radar. The Chinese do have a development cycle advantage (i.e. they are coming in later) and computing capabilities beyond what the Russians or Indians can put out. That much is supportable. At the same time, the current J-20 radars are Chinese 2nd generation, that comes after early J-10/J-11 development. There would be improvement.

What the US does not take lightly is the Chinese missile tech which appears more reliable than Russian (i.e. they hit their targets more often than not). That much can be seen in long ranged AAM/ASM tests, regardless of whether these were copied or not. Whether it was a Pakistani JF-17 or F-16 that downed the MIg-21 is something the USAF would have verified very quickly with the Pakistanis. If it truly was a JF-17 (which I suspect it was), clearly the USAF would be doing something about it.

Why it is more likely to be a JF-17 is simply from the fact that the Su-30s were claiming to be able to deflect AIM-120s with their SPJs. That same SPJs also equip the Mig-21 and thus may have more difficulty identifying a Chinese missile. The west has a very strong handle on what Russians can put into the field, the difficulty is getting a reliable estimate of what the Chinese can do (short of a war).

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 09:02
by marsavian
PESA not AESA, no Su-30 variant has an AESA yet.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 09:31
by weasel1962
The BARs is not a complete PESA either. Technically its a hybrid of both AESA and PESA. Having said that, its a moot point if IAF is upgrading its Su-30mki with an AESA radar.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 12:36
by swiss
weasel1962 wrote:The BARs is not a complete PESA either. Technically its a hybrid of both AESA and PESA.


How do you come to this conclusion? Its a normal PESA Radar.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 15:04
by zero-one
weasel1962 wrote:The west has a very strong handle on what Russians can put into the field


From what the video shows, the IAF seem to have a very strong handle on what the Chinese can put into the field. Thats if you won't dismiss their claims as propaganda.
Personally I think the PLAAF and IAF are very closely matched.

The PLAAF's front line units are composed of a high low mix of J-11s and J-10s, these are supported by export variants of the Su-27 and Su-30. The J-16, J-20 and maybe the Su-35 are their highest tier units which are deployed in very small numbers
J-16 (50+ units)
J-20 (<30 units)
Su-35 (24 ordered, probably just to steal their engine tech)

The IAF on the other hand uses their highest tier unit, the Su-30MKI as the workhorse unit, this will be supported by the Rafale soon. Suposedly there will be around 100+ Rafales, the 36 are just the initial order. There are also Mig-29s and Mirage 2000s used for various strike and support roles.

I consider both the Su-30MKI and Rafale superior to China's J-10 and J-11 combo. If they can get the Rafale in the numbers they need then the IAF's front line fighters will be superior to the PLAAF's. But the small number of Elite Chinese fighters will be a superior to anything the IAF can throw at the moment. But the superiority will not be a whole lot, it will not match the technology gap the F-22 and F-35 brings against 4th gens.

Interesting to note that the USAF philosophy on High low mix seems to be somewhat of a reversed version of the Chinese one. As it stands today the USAF has 186 F-22's supported by around 90 F-15Cs for air superiority.

There will eventually be more than 1000 F-35As being supported by whats left of the F-16C and F-15E fleets for the Fighter/Attack roles.

So the elite top tier units out number the lower tier support units.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 02:40
by weasel1962
swiss wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The BARs is not a complete PESA either. Technically its a hybrid of both AESA and PESA.


How do you come to this conclusion? Its a normal PESA Radar.


There are a lot of write ups on the net on this. A simple layman's explanation per wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

It's worth noting that N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 03:14
by weasel1962
zero-one wrote:Personally I think the PLAAF and IAF are very closely matched.


In terms of numbers, as a simple indicator, PLAAF fields ~80 fighter brigades each individually larger than the 30+ fighter squadrons which the IAF currently fields (simply a function of the 3x defense budget). Deployment wise, IAF of course enjoys local superiority vis what China deploys in Tibet. China does have its focus on their eastern seaboard but IAF also has its hands full tackling the 20 PAF fighter sqns. 2 sqns of Rafales, even if an effective plane, will take time to induct and train (if they don't crash these). The above can be validated via Scramble.nl.

Technologically, Su-30mki compares well to early Chinese Suks (J-11A/Su-27s) but the later Chinese suks have significant advantages. The biggest of these being missiles. Whilst IAF continues to field Russian stock missiles, the Chinese not only fields the same but also their locally-developed missiles which are claimed to be improvements of the Russian missiles. The latest being the PL-21 (that were fielded with J-16s) that "out-sticks" not only the stock missiles but also potentially American ones. PL-15s are already being standard with J-20s. IAF is responding by equipping their Suks with the Derby and their locally developed Astra.

With the Chinese employing Suks, they know generally firsthand what the IAF Su-30mki is capable (or not capable of). The remaining IAF comprises less capable Mig-29s, Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and Mig-21s. On the flip side, PLAAF J-10s, J-20s, JH-7s are an unknown quality even if there are well-educated guesses of their capabilities.

IAF suks and missiles have also been reported to suffer from low MC/serviceability rates arising from spares, tyres etc. Such rates are not reliably reported by the Chinese so difficult to compare.

Most importantly, both sides (Chinese and Indians) are successfully relying diplomacy, trade and economics to steer away from conflict so any comparison is purely academic, even though 1962-era nationalistic jingoism still dominates forum narratives. China is India's number 1 trading partner and plays the role of the bogeyman to justify the military budget (can't justify based on Pakistan).

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 05:58
by Corsair1963
Personally, I don't see how anyone could consider the IAF a close match for the PLAAF???

Let's look and just "some" of the common facts about the Indian Air Force...


1.) Way under fighter strength. (Requirement 42 Squadron has "30" that have to support two fronts!)

2.) Majority of the fighter fleet is made up from a motley mix of older types. (Jaguars, Mig-21's, Mig-29's, and Mirage 2000's)

3.) Most have rather poor "serviceability". Which, would be near "impossible" to support in any major conflict. Supply Chain alone would be a nightmare......

4.) Only newer and more capable types are the Su-30MKI* and Rafale. The former are fairly capable. Yet, as mentioned above not so good serviceability. While, the Indian Air Force has ordered only "36" Rafale's and taken delivery of none of them. Even when they do not enough for even two full squadrons!

5.) Future looks bleak as the Government seems unwilling to order additional Su-30MKI's and LCA in numbers. While, the MWF (LCA MKII) and AMCA are more fantasy than reality!

6.) India's recent conflict with Pakistan last April was hardly stellar. When it lost two fighters! :?

7.) Buying the S-400 from Russia has pretty much shut the door on the F-35. Which, is nothing short of a "colossal mistake". As the former is the only viable counter to Chinese Stealth Fighters post 2030.



*Note: In any conflict the Su-30MKI and Rafale's would be first on the PLAAF target list. :shock:

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 06:18
by Corsair1963
Speaking of the Indian Air Force..........

DRDO, French company talks on Kaveri jet engine crash


NEW DELHI: The plan to develop the indigenous Kaveri fighter jet engine as part of the Rafale offsets deal with the help of French technology is believed to have fallen through after the Indian side found the pricing prohibitive........

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... n=ETTWMain


HAL pitches for 4 more squadrons of Su-30MKI

State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has pitched for an order to manufacture four additional squadrons of the Su-30 MKI jets to quickly meet gaps in fighter squadron strength but the air force seems to be only keen on ordering replacements for aircraft that have been lost in accidents.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... EN5CCdepNQ

HAL awaits dues and LCA order from IAF

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is working towards completing by December the first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) made to the Air Force’s final operational clearance (FOC) configuration, according to R. Madhavan, CMD of HAL.

“Beyond that, we aim to produce one LCA every month,” he said. The FOC for the plane was given in February last. The IAF had bought 20 LCAs in the FOC version, having already received the first lot of 20 in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) version, he observed on the sidelines of the Air Chief Marshal L.M. Katre memorial lecture here on Sunday.

“We have the capacity to make 16 LCAs a year [at the Bengaluru complex.] We expect that the firm order for the approved 83 planes also comes in,” he said. The order is worth around ₹59,000 crore.

However, after recent price negotiations on this purchase, HAL had not received any order yet. Right now, money was its first concern, Mr. Madhavan said. Fresh orders apart, the defense PSU urgently needs the cumulative arrears of around ₹20,000 crore from the IAF. Last year, HAL had to borrow ₹1,000 crore from banks in an unprecedented act for paying staff salaries and routine expenses.

“Until now we have somehow managed [our finances] with our funds and from bank loans. I hope something will come through soon for us to maintain the level.” Expectation is also on the revised estimates in the defense budget and some money from deliveries to the Army.”

Which was why, he said, even if the order for the 83 LCAs came in, “We can take it up only if it comes in with the money associated with it.” The money was needed for materials, besides design work taken up with development body, the Aeronautical Development Agency.

HAL, he said, was also keen on contesting for Malaysia’s tender for 12 fighter planes in the LCA category.

https://www.shinflawerchannel.com/2019/ ... Mtw0bl209M

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 08:22
by hornetfinn
weasel1962 wrote:
swiss wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The BARs is not a complete PESA either. Technically its a hybrid of both AESA and PESA.


How do you come to this conclusion? Its a normal PESA Radar.


There are a lot of write ups on the net on this. A simple layman's explanation per wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

It's worth noting that N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.


That's also totally misleading as every single PESA radar has receiver amplifier (low noise amplifier LNA) in tranceiver (or receiver). It's also impossible to put that LNA to antenna array itself as there the LNA would fry instantly when the radar is transmitting due to enormous power levels involved. In every fighter radar size PESA radar the LNA is outside and well away the antenna array and well isolated with duplexer and limiter switch. Radar receive signal in PESA goes first through phase shifters (there is some loss), then it goes through duplexer (there is loss), then through waveguide (there is some loss), then through receiver protection (some loss there too) and then to Low Noise Amplifier where the signal is amplified for the receiver itself. After that there are no meaningful losses in the system.

In AESA the signal goes to LNA much more directly and there is lot lower losses. First the receive signal goes through duplexer (with some loss) and then through receiver/LNA protection (with some loss). Then it goes directly to LNA where the signal is amplified. After that there are no meaningful losses in the system. Phase shifting is usually done after LNA which means one major loss item is avoided. Also there is LNA in each TRM which means there are 800-2000 LNAs in the system. In PESA there is only one LNA in the receiver (or tranceiver). LNA noise figure may be the same in both AESA and PESA, but in PESA there are more lossy items in the signal path. Modern PESA has about 3 dB higher losses than modern AESA in receive path and pretty much the same in transmit path due to same reasons. So AESA is more sensitive

Basically it's impossible to have hybrid of PESA and AESA. They work in very different ways and combining two different methods of operation is not possible. Only common thing is electronic beam steering and using phase shifting elements. Otherwise PESA is much more like MSA radar than AESA. I think it was Carlo Kopp who brought this idea that Bars and Irbis radars are somehow close to AESA in operation in the receive path with equal noise/loss levels and sidelobe performance. That's not possible at all like explained above. Losses are definitively higher in PESA and sidelobe performance can't be similar as there is only one receiving element vs. 800-2000 receiving elements in AESAs. This way the errors decorrelate in multiple receiving elements and directivity, gain and sidelobe performance are all better.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 08:45
by swiss
Thanks for your post Hornetfinn.

You explained far better then i ever could.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 09:31
by hythelday
swiss wrote:Thanks for your post Hornetfinn.

You explained far better then i ever could.


hornetfinn to the rescue!

Let me introduce you to some other gems from the mighty BARS wiki article. For example, russian article says:

В качестве преимуществ данного радиолокатора (в частности, перед РЛС AN/APG-77 для истребителей F-22) отмечаются высокое разрешение и производительность, возможность эффективно работать по наземным и воздушным целям[6].

One of the advantages of this radar set (including over AN/APG-77 used in F-22) may be considered high resolution and ability to effectively engage both air and surface targets.


The source for that is an ukranian article from 2006 that discusses the possibilities of how to upgrade ukranian AF Fulcrums in light of Ukraine-West-Russia love triangle. Of note, the original source does not talk about "high resolution" but rather the ability "to count the number of engine fan blades and hence paint a "portrait" of a fighter. I guess whoever wrote wiki entry knew (unlike ukranian aviation enthusiasts in 2006) that NCTR techniques like that existed at least since VIetnam for MSA radars and decided to obfuscate things a little.

The english wiki article part about "hybrid AESA" has no source at all, even though it has sources for other important info like spec numbers straight from the manufacturer.

Oh and speeking of official specs: "air-to-air regime, 100 deg zone, target RCS 3 m sq, clear background rear hemisphere aspect target detection range is 60 km"

https://www.niip.ru/catalog/eksportnaya ... siya/bars/

With specs like that it could be any type of "hybrid AESA", but still not the super radar that tracks Chinese J-20s however it wants.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 14:29
by element1loop
hornetfinn wrote: Modern PESA has about 3 dB higher losses than modern AESA in receive path and pretty much the same in transmit path due to same reasons. So AESA is more sensitive ...


To spell that estimate out in percentage terms, a 3dB PESA gain loss compared to the modern AESA exactly equates to an AESA having 41.25% more gain than the PESA, in send and receive.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 17:47
by milosh
Hybrid PESA mean, PESA MESA hybrid, it is PESA radar but it have antenna on gimbal mount which turn left and right for dozen degs (don't know exact number).

N035 similar story by because of smaller and lighter antenna its move similar as classic MESA antenna:

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 18:45
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Ah yes, combing mechanical and electronic beam steering to allow missile lock over 90 degrees from direction of flight.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 10:06
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:1.) Way under fighter strength. (Requirement 42 Squadron has "30" that have to support two fronts!)

countries that consider India a threat to their national security:
Pakistan
China

Countries that consider China a threat:
India
Japan
S.Korea
USA
Australia
Vietnam
Philippines
Taiwan
Malaysia
(NATO to some extent as they have also stepped up patrols in the SCS)

So China has more fronts to cover and is spread more thinly than India.

Corsair1963 wrote:2.) Majority of the fighter fleet is made up from a motley mix of older types. (Jaguars, Mig-21's, Mig-29's, and Mirage 2000's)

China also relies on a lot of old model J-7s, JH-8s

Corsair1963 wrote:3.) Most have rather poor "serviceability". Which, would be near "impossible" to support in any major conflict. Supply Chain alone would be a nightmare......

And how exactly is China better off in this aspect? In fact the assessment of their CBG composition suggest that they don't have a clue on how to operate it yet

Corsair1963 wrote:4.) Only newer and more capable types are the Su-30MKI* and Rafale. The former are fairly capable. Yet, as mentioned above not so good serviceability.

We don't know if China will have better serviceability as well. They may be even worse for all we know.


Corsair1963 wrote:6.) India's recent conflict with Pakistan last April was hardly stellar. When it lost two fighters! :?

As far as I know the PLAAF has not been involved in any shooting wars in recent memory, they can perform much worse than the IAF has.

Corsair1963 wrote:*Note: In any conflict the Su-30MKI and Rafale's would be first on the PLAAF target list. :shock:


Yes but when we look at front line fighters and support assets. The IAF's most numerous units the Su-30MKI supported by advanced versions of the Mig-21 and Mig-29 will be at an advantage over the China's J-11 and J-10

The J-10 and J-11 forms the majority of the PLAAF's and will conduct the majority of air operations.
most are equipped with the early MSA radars that are less capable than the BARS system used by IAF Flankers.

China's higher tier units. J-20 and the J-16 which is primarily a strike platform will be deployed in small number to elite units.

I think the most glaring weakness of the China is their lack of experience. The IAF frequently trains with the US and has even attended Red Flag and European air combat exercises, to some extent the IAF has actual combat experience. Win or loose, they learn. China has no comparable training or experience. They may have more expensive toys but not the know how on how to use them

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 12:35
by falcon.16
hythelday wrote:
swiss wrote:Thanks for your post Hornetfinn.

You explained far better then i ever could.


hornetfinn to the rescue!

Let me introduce you to some other gems from the mighty BARS wiki article. For example, russian article says:

В качестве преимуществ данного радиолокатора (в частности, перед РЛС AN/APG-77 для истребителей F-22) отмечаются высокое разрешение и производительность, возможность эффективно работать по наземным и воздушным целям[6].

One of the advantages of this radar set (including over AN/APG-77 used in F-22) may be considered high resolution and ability to effectively engage both air and surface targets.


The source for that is an ukranian article from 2006 that discusses the possibilities of how to upgrade ukranian AF Fulcrums in light of Ukraine-West-Russia love triangle. Of note, the original source does not talk about "high resolution" but rather the ability "to count the number of engine fan blades and hence paint a "portrait" of a fighter. I guess whoever wrote wiki entry knew (unlike ukranian aviation enthusiasts in 2006) that NCTR techniques like that existed at least since VIetnam for MSA radars and decided to obfuscate things a little.

The english wiki article part about "hybrid AESA" has no source at all, even though it has sources for other important info like spec numbers straight from the manufacturer.

Oh and speeking of official specs: "air-to-air regime, 100 deg zone, target RCS 3 m sq, clear background rear hemisphere aspect target detection range is 60 km"

https://www.niip.ru/catalog/eksportnaya ... siya/bars/

With specs like that it could be any type of "hybrid AESA", but still not the super radar that tracks Chinese J-20s however it wants.


RCS 3 m2 -60 kms :roll:

It is ridiculous Indians can talk about to detect a J-20 fighter in any serious range.

Ghostbusters.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 15:57
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Personally, I don't see how anyone could consider the IAF a close match for the PLAAF???


For now they are match in fact IAF is noticeable stronger in region where they could clash.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 16:38
by zero-one
falcon.16 wrote:RCS 3 m2 -60 kms :roll:

It is ridiculous Indians can talk about to detect a J-20 fighter in any serious range.

Ghostbusters.


But they never said they used the Su-30's radar to "track" the J-20. It could be another system or a combination of different systems. All they said was they tracked it.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 17:52
by falcon.16
zero-one wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:RCS 3 m2 -60 kms :roll:

It is ridiculous Indians can talk about to detect a J-20 fighter in any serious range.

Ghostbusters.


But they never said they used the Su-30's radar to "track" the J-20. It could be another system or a combination of different systems. All they said was they tracked it.


Take all this claims with a grain of salt.

First, how can they to know was a J-20 and not other airplane?

And second, how can they to know J-20 did not bring luneberg lens or external payload?

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 18:30
by milosh
falcon.16 wrote:Take all this claims with a grain of salt.

First, how can they to know was a J-20 and not other airplane?

And second, how can they to know J-20 did not bring luneberg lens or external payload?


How they could know it is J-20? Simple, Su-30 doesn't detect it on its radar but Beriev A-50EI detect it so logical thing to conclude it is stealth or in case of Chinese it is J-20 because it is only operational stealth they have. If they have something like russian hunter ucav in service or B-2 then we could questioned was it J-20 or something else.

If J-20 on other hand used luneberg lens RCS would be huge so they could conclude it is J-20, same thing is J-20 carry fuel tanks (only external payload it would carry).

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2019, 14:37
by mixelflick
The 2 air arms are interesting to evaluate.

On the one hand, I think India has better pilots/tactics. On the other hand, China has so many more aircraft, better air to air weapons and a stealth card now to play. India has more combat or "near combat" experience, but their most recent showing could be called less than stellar.

They need a Flanker refresh, more capable AAM's and a decent medium weight fighter in particular to counter large numbers of J-10's, including the new J-10C. I think the Mig-35 is the odds on favorite, although more Rafale's would better fit the bill. Ultimately it's going to come down to $, and on that score the Mig-35 will be far cheaper.

It'll also have a lot more in common with their Mig-29K's, vs. say if they bought the Super Hornet or F-16I/F-21. Further on, I think they're a good candidate for a small number of SU-57's. It'll never match the J-20's numbers, but it will give India a quasi stealth heavy hitter the Chinese/PAK air forces find difficult to counter.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 02:33
by weasel1962
Useful to look at logistics. There's only 6-7 airports in Tibet, all altitude constrained (runways represented as red dots), 5 of which are dual-use. The Chinese are building 3 new "civilian" airports (blue dots) which are clearly strategically placed plus a dual runway at Lhasa Gonggar. Due to altitude, long runways are required to takeoff especially at MTOW. This makes the runway susceptible to suppression as one bomb anywhere along the runway would reduce/eliminate sortie rates. That's why China doesn't base permanent fighter brigades in this region, they rotate.

Assam is where IAF's sukhoi squadrons would be significantly outnumbered as there are a lot more runways in Yunnan/Sichuan (~20) to the east. However, as one moves west of Bhutan, the situation reverses excepting the risk of a 2 front war.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 02:51
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:1.) Way under fighter strength. (Requirement 42 Squadron has "30" that have to support two fronts!)

countries that consider India a threat to their national security:
Pakistan
China

Countries that consider China a threat:
India
Japan
S.Korea
USA
Australia
Vietnam
Philippines
Taiwan
Malaysia
(NATO to some extent as they have also stepped up patrols in the SCS)

So China has more fronts to cover and is spread more thinly than India.


Your assuming those countries would come to the aid of India. Yet, considering India is "non aligned" and won't join any formal Alliance. I wouldn't count on much support from any of those countries in any Chinese - Indian Conflict. At least not directly....

Corsair1963 wrote:2.) Majority of the fighter fleet is made up from a motley mix of older types. (Jaguars, Mig-21's, Mig-29's, and Mirage 2000's)

China also relies on a lot of old model J-7s, JH-8s


Correct....

Corsair1963 wrote:3.) Most have rather poor "serviceability". Which, would be near "impossible" to support in any major conflict. Supply Chain alone would be a nightmare......

And how exactly is China better off in this aspect? In fact the assessment of their CBG composition suggest that they don't have a clue on how to operate it yet


China has a much larger fighter fleet to draw from. In addition she is the main source for Maintenance and Spare Parts. Unlike the very mixed Indian Fleet....As for Carrier Battle Groups her fleet of Aircraft Carriers is much bigger than India's and improving by the day.

Corsair1963 wrote:4.) Only newer and more capable types are the Su-30MKI* and Rafale. The former are fairly capable. Yet, as mentioned above not so good serviceability.

We don't know if China will have better serviceability as well. They may be even worse for all we know.


On the available information I would choose China....


Corsair1963 wrote:6.) India's recent conflict with Pakistan last April was hardly stellar. When it lost two fighters! :?

As far as I know the PLAAF has not been involved in any shooting wars in recent memory, they can perform much worse than the IAF has.


Honestly, in any major conflict with China or Pakistan. I think the odds are high that India would have to face both at the same time.

Corsair1963 wrote:*Note: In any conflict the Su-30MKI and Rafale's would be first on the PLAAF target list. :shock:


Yes but when we look at front line fighters and support assets. The IAF's most numerous units the Su-30MKI supported by advanced versions of the Mig-21 and Mig-29 will be at an advantage over the China's J-11 and J-10

The J-10 and J-11 forms the majority of the PLAAF's and will conduct the majority of air operations.
most are equipped with the early MSA radars that are less capable than the BARS system used by IAF Flankers.

China's higher tier units. J-20 and the J-16 which is primarily a strike platform will be deployed in small number to elite units.


The PLAAF and PLAN will likely use whatever assets necessary to accomplish the mission.

I think the most glaring weakness of the China is their lack of experience. The IAF frequently trains with the US and has even attended Red Flag and European air combat exercises, to some extent the IAF has actual combat experience. Win or loose, they learn. China has no comparable training or experience. They may have more expensive toys but not the know how on how to use them


Clearly, China has less actual combat experience. Yet, she also operates extensive "Aggressor Fleets" and holds a number of Military Exercises similar to Red Flag....Plus, you have to look at both sides in totality. My guess is China would likely strike first in any major conflict with India. Which, she would perform strikes that would balance India's slight advantage in experiences.

Regardless, in the end many variables. It's just in my opinion that China has a far better case....

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 08:15
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Regardless, in the end many variables. It's just in my opinion that China has a far better case....


I largely agree with your assessment. Legitimate question tho, Can a full scale scale conflict between China and India be considered a World War, they certainly have more fire power than all the major powers of the 1940s had. But this is largely due to Nukes.

Anyway, even if the conflict remains non nuclear, the US will almost certainly be involved since it will be within the US's best interest. the chances of the US or even NATO siding with India is greater than siding with China. But more likely than not, any conflict between the 2 will be relegated to boarder disputes or skirmishes.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 09:22
by weasel1962
The only thing China has been hitting India with are cellphone promotions. Beats me why China would want 1.4 billion more mouths to feeds, when it can have % of 1.4 billion more phones users to sell to. Understandable that US media plays up the "china threat" theory because that pushes India towards US (or at least that's the intent). No Huawei please, oppo ok? Reality is a bit more prosaic, bar the odd border incident.

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 10:38
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Regardless, in the end many variables. It's just in my opinion that China has a far better case....


I largely agree with your assessment. Legitimate question tho, Can a full scale scale conflict between China and India be considered a World War, they certainly have more fire power than all the major powers of the 1940s had. But this is largely due to Nukes.

Anyway, even if the conflict remains non nuclear, the US will almost certainly be involved since it will be within the US's best interest. the chances of the US or even NATO siding with India is greater than siding with China. But more likely than not, any conflict between the 2 will be relegated to boarder disputes or skirmishes.



Yes, mostly likely conflict would be some type of boarder dispute. Yet, this could easily get out of hand.

In addition unless India makes a move to join a broader Military Alliance with the West. I see little reason for any nation to risk life and limb for India. This what many Indians just don't seem to get! They want many in the West to side with them. Yet, won't join them in an Alliance.

In short why should we fight for them. If, they won't fight for us.... :|

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 10:42
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The only thing China has been hitting India with are cellphone promotions. Beats me why China would want 1.4 billion more mouths to feeds, when it can have % of 1.4 billion more phones users to sell to. Understandable that US media plays up the "china threat" theory because that pushes India towards US (or at least that's the intent). No Huawei please, oppo ok? Reality is a bit more prosaic, bar the odd border incident.



Japan's largest trading partner in December of 1941 was the US. Yet, that didn't stop them from attacking the US. :shock:

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 11:06
by weasel1962
By August 1941, US was no longer Japan's largest trading partner....due to embargo

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... ese-assets
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee120/node/239

One wonders if Japan was not oil-embargo-ed, would they have needed Borneo oil, and for which would they have needed to neutralize Singapore and Philippines, and finally would that have meant no Pearl Harbor

Re: F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 13:01
by madrat
weasel1962 wrote:By August 1941, US was no longer Japan's largest trading partner....due to embargo

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... ese-assets
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee120/node/239

One wonders if Japan was not oil-embargo-ed, would they have needed Borneo oil, and for which would they have needed to neutralize Singapore and Philippines, and finally would that have meant no Pearl Harbor


Those are some far out theories. They wouldn't pass any litmus test, because Japan was well beyond the turning point for war by 1940.