F-22 vs. F-14? Would there be any competition?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Who would win in a fight? (Please post reply to topic too)

F-22
154
91%
F-14
16
9%
 
Total votes : 170

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XanderCrews

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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 17:51

gbigly wrote: The f-22 is one of the hottest temperature operating jets because of it's stealth contrours and black absorbant paint. It sticks out like a sore thumb to infrared.
.


Eagerly awaiting picture of black F-22
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XanderCrews

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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 17:55

gbigly wrote:
Lawman wrote:Remind him the the F-14 is limited to 6.5 G Maximum because of airframe fatigue and stress concerns. Compaired to the F-22's 9.

Tell him that IRST that would be used to "track" and F-22 only gives you elevation and bearing not range. You need range to conduct an intercept otherwise your just gonna head towards the spot till you have him visual, not a good idea to take an Turkey into a merge with a Raptor. Also the effective range of IRST is way way way lower then even the most basic radar and its not subtible for use in weather.

The Raptor has a higher Sustained and Instinatious turn radius. The Raptor has a much higher thrust to weight ratio allowing it to regain energy far faster then an F-14.

And finally remind him that it takes between 40 and 50 hours to get one F-14 off the ground for one hour of flight time.


Stress fatigue is due to old age, not plane design you doofus. The f-14 pilots would turn 9gs constantly in the f-14 on newer blocks. "But blah blah it can't sustain". Well actually that's not true, during a fly off an F-14A that's A model mind you, one of the first batches of F-14s as well.. had a fly off against an F-15A eagle to see which plane the Shah of Iran wanted to buy. The f-15A was limited to 7.5gs because of it's frame design, whereas even the f-14A was able to pull off 8.5gs and SUSTAIN it while ACCELERATING through the turn - book: Gillcrist, "Tomcat! The grumman f-14 story". Surely, they had burned the fuel down for the A's crappy tf-30 engines to pull it off. But even then I believe the tomcat was still heavier than the eagle with around half it's fuel loaded. This is primarily due to the tomcat's lower wing loading and stronger frame (for carrier suitability). Also, if a plane can turn 9gs all over the place, then it by default can sustain it provided you have enough engine thrust, which the f-110 engiens in the b and D models certainly had.

Tom Cruise here talks about turning 9.5gs in the backseat of an F-14A during Top Gun filming. https://youtu.be/l36BVi8K1uo?t=3m46s

Here is also a video of what looks like an ACTUAL F-14D with it's counter set at "9.1gs" under "current g" indicator during what looks like a training mission.

https://youtu.be/u9IK0QaoBlM?t=11m57s

No plane would be allowed to turn that high instantaneously if it could not structurally sustain it. All that would require you to sustain such high gs, is... AGAIN... enough ENGINE THRUST. The f-4 phantom could probably turn up to 8gs instantaneously but engine power wise only 6.5 - 7gs of sustained turning, for reference. Structural limitations of the f-4 phantom would not allow you to instantaneously turn any higher. So this whole "but it can't sustain it because it isn't built strong enough" bullshit is just that - bullshit.

The IRST on the tomcat can be linked to radar to feed the radar information of where the target is. The IRST can "lock" on a target when paired with the APG-71 radar otherwise it's completely useless in a fighter jet. More than likely the tomcat will get a lock on the raptor before the raptor will be able to get it's amraams in range of the tomcat. One thing the f-22 raptor does have over the tomcat however, is it's ECM capabilities to jam. Certainly though, when the raptor pilot turns that system on, it is also difficult for him to track the tomcat as well because of what it does to the f-22's radar locking.

The tomcat's wings can sweep out to 20 degrees, almost straight out, with 0 degrees being perfectly straight for comparison of course. It's wing loading is much lower than that of the raptor, but it's wing area is really the deal breaker. The tomcat when it's wings are in maximum turning mode will out turn even an f-16. That goes for maneuverability. The f-14 wins.

Also, the eagle is a superior turner compared to the f-22 raptor. The raptor turns sluggish and in a dogfight the F-15 EAGLE will whip the sh*t out of it.



Kill yourself.

I've reported his posts already, hopefully he can be banned quickly and return to his echo chamber

Spoilers ahead:

I am an F-14 fan. It's my favorite since 4 years old. However:

Aim 54 was retired by 2004. It was redundant and obsolete.

F-14 was built as a fleet defender. It's not a dogfighter

I know eagle guys who loved dogfighting tomcat's because the swing wings give away the tomcats energy state. Basically telegraphing every move. They also loved it's huge size that made it impossible to miss with the gun. "Size of a tennis court I couldn't miss"

The F-22 is superior to the F-15 vastly superior. And the F-15 could handle the Tomcat unless the Tom had a great driver.

F-22s are not black.

The tomcat is the best of 1960s tech. The F-22 is decades newer and from a more advanced era.

It's fun comparing 8 tracks to MP3s I guess

I've read the books you are referencing, and Gilchrist for example has been discredited a few times. He worked for NG and likeD to exagerate
Last edited by XanderCrews on 27 Feb 2017, 18:07, edited 2 times in total.
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 18:00

gbigly wrote: Well actually that's not true, during a fly off an F-14A that's A model mind you, one of the first batches of F-14s as well.. had a fly off against an F-15A eagle to see which plane the Shah of Iran wanted to buy.

So you apparently aren't aware how the F-14 cheated huh? Let me help

https://theaviationist.com/2013/02/11/shah-tomcat/
Don and Dennis started engines of the Tomcat ahead of the schedule and burned down fuel in the warm up area during the Eagle demonstration, to reduce the difference in thrust to weight ratio between the two fighters.

burned down a great quantity of fuel and now they had only 2,500 pounds of remaining gas: while this little quantity was only sufficient to accomplish their flight demonstration, 2,500 pounds was also one eight of the Tomcat’s internal fuel capacity and thanks to this fact the Tomcat had the same thrust to weight ratio of the Eagle.


gbigly wrote:It's wing loading is much lower than that of the raptor, but it's wing area is really the deal breaker. The tomcat when it's wings are in maximum turning mode will out turn even an f-16. That goes for maneuverability. The f-14 wins.

Also, the eagle is a superior turner compared to the f-22 raptor. The raptor turns sluggish and in a dogfight the F-15 EAGLE will whip the sh*t out of it.


Whew where to start. Lets see wing loading?

F-14D:
Empty Weight: 43,735 lbs
Wing area: 565 square feet
Max Thrust: 56,400 lbs
Wing loading (empty): 77.4 lbs per square feet
Thrust to weight (empty): 1.28

F-22A:
Empty Weight: 43,340 lbs
Wing area: 840 square feet
Max Thrust: 70,000 lbs
Wing loading (empty): 51.6 lbs per square feet
Thrust to weight (empty): 1.61

both airframes have body lifting properties. The Raptor has the added advantage of generating vortex lift when turning because of chines, the F-14 does not.

The Raptor also has relaxed static stability meaning that the tail is lift loaded making the horizontal stabilizers an effective lifting surface, the tomcat on the other hand is a stable design, the horizontal stabs do not produce lift.

The Raptor has a canted tail design, which also increases lift the F-14 does not.

So in a high speed fight where maneuverability is lift and thrust limited, there not a plane on earth that equals the Raptor.
So lets go with slow speed, the F-14s forward swept wings might offer an advantage there, but the Raptor has TVC controls and can maneuver at 0 air speed. the F-14 can't do post stall.


thats what billions of dollars of YF-22 kinematics research will do. remember its sole purpose was for air frame sciences research, you know Stealth and performance.

Avionics and sensors were tested on a different aircraft, the Boeing 757 FTB,
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 19:06

And since the Tomcat is a stable design its giant tail is actually subtracting from total lift (fighting the main wing). While on the Raptor and F-16 the tail adds to total lift. So there goes the wing loading argument.....

Remember, at 10K the Block 30 has a 1.3 degree per second turn advantage and smaller turn radius vs the Block 50. So in doing the 10K comparison against the F-14B, the Block 30 chart should be displayed not the Block 50. The Block 50/52 are the heaviest bloated versions of the Viper, while the F-14B is the best all around version of the Tomcat (WVR).



Read pg. 79 of "Hoser Here.....Shoot!" and pg. 354-355 of "ROGER BALL!" about the 9g sustaining myth. Even Larry “Music” Muczynski said that he went into a 7g turn, not a 9g turn, against his Su-22 Fitter back in 1981. If the Tomcat was 9g sustainable, and since it is actual combat, wouldn't Music have opted for a faster rate (9g) vs a slower rate (7g)???
I am talking about actual service parameters here, not something from the VX-4 (TEST AND EVALUATION) days and early/mid seventies.





I have included a longer reply with various seal level displays, but I do not understand why it is not being posted?
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 20:58

Someone is definitely a Tomcat fan with no concept of what the Raptor is and does.

A Raptor vs. Tomcat fight would be fun right up till the Tomcat dies having not seen, tracked or fired a shot. Once the Raptor detects the Vegas lights size target on radar its not going to run head first into a merge. At that point its a matter of moving in for a the kill undetected.
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 21:13

structuresguy wrote:Someone is definitely a xxxxxx fan with no concept of what the yyyyyy is and does.


99% of internet posts.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post28 Feb 2017, 14:39

I dunno, I find some of his posts amusing. The only real question is, does he believe what he spouts?

I hope not, LOL
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Unread post28 Feb 2017, 16:51

As far as the Tomcat out turning the Viper, here is a comparison. Do the math:

Block 40 F-16C, turn starts around :34 second mark
[YouTube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcBlEU62e8c[/YouTube]

Remember, a Block 30 big mouth is around 700lbs lighter than the Block 40. So it turns even a little quicker-


F-14B, turn starts around :56 second mark
[YouTube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wopcrm4f5Sk[/YouTube]


F-14A, turn starts around 4:54 mark;
[YouTube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fJICHLi1t0[/YouTube]


All are sea level demos-
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pmi

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Unread post01 Mar 2017, 07:01

wrightwing wrote:Wow. I feel dumber for having read that nonsense. There isn't one accurate statement, in that delusional rant.


Not true, he did accurately identify Tom Cruise.
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Unread post06 Mar 2017, 01:11

"Also, the eagle is a superior turner compared to the f-22 raptor. The raptor turns sluggish and in a dogfight the F-15 EAGLE will whip the sh*t out of it."

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Unread post06 Mar 2017, 01:33

I think I just lost IQ points by reading that. Someone doesn't know what an ALR-94 is.
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Unread post07 Mar 2017, 19:24

nutshell wrote:"Also, the eagle is a superior turner compared to the f-22 raptor. The raptor turns sluggish and in a dogfight the F-15 EAGLE will whip the sh*t out of it."

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


Do you think he really believes this? I sure hope not. Likely just trolling. I've seen many an F-15 vs. F-22 demo, and the two aren't even remotely comparable. And obviously, it's not showing us everything it can do. To get back on topic..

I can't imagine any scenario where the F-14 would win. Be that BVR, WVR etc.. Maybe Snodgrass vs. a rookie F-22 driver would make it interesting.. :)
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Unread post09 Mar 2017, 00:55

Oh hell no way he actually believes that.

I can imagine a scenario where the Tomcat could really trump over an F22:

The F22 is on the ground while under maintenance and he F14 literally crashes over it.
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Unread post09 Mar 2017, 01:15

nutshell wrote:Oh hell no way he actually believes that.

I can imagine a scenario where the Tomcat could really trump over an F22:

The F22 is on the ground while under maintenance and he F14 literally crashes over it.

Well pretty much everything is relegated to a "target" when it is sitting on the ground.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post11 Mar 2017, 21:49

I'm still wondering how/why the 15! people that voted for the Tomcat happened? LOL
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