F-22 vs. F-14? Would there be any competition?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Who would win in a fight? (Please post reply to topic too)

F-22
155
91%
F-14
16
9%
 
Total votes : 171

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huggy

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Unread post11 Jun 2015, 06:12

huggy wrote:
SnakeHandler wrote:.. but in my experience,...

What is your experience, exactly?

Crickets...

Snake handler,
dead seal's comments were laughable. It is his opinion, and he's entitled to it. But they are made without the educated background of an aviator.

And for you to come in and posture yourself as an F-16 pilot ("I've personally gone 1v2... ) is poor judgement. And if I'm wrong and you are an F-16 pilot (which I'm sure you are not), then wow... this opens up an entirely new angle on the conversation.

And you agree with deadseal, who said this?
"They consistanly get killed in exercises or miss targets or whatever. In the viper community we all want to steal thier jets and punt the back seater for more gas. The belief is that a 2-man crew is inherently flawed. When you divide the duties up like they do, both folks tend to take a "he's got it" mentality."

You agree with that statement?

Honestly, you need to stay in your lane.
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eloise

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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 18:10

why F-15E got no love :roll:
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Aug 2015, 14:26

eloise wrote:why F-15E got no love :roll:


I can't imagine any legacy platform being much of a challenge. The thing was built to defeat any current or projected enemy fighter, gain air superiority and do it handily.

The currently fleet turns Mig-29's into spare parts regularly. The Flanker is an open questionmark, but you have to believe with the new AESA/AIM-120D and 9x and superior training, that 105-0 record stands a good chance of improving.

For what it's worth, I spoke to a couple of F-15C pilots from the MA ANG recently at an airshow. They were just back from that Malaysia exercise, which pitted them against some of the most advanced SU-30 Flanker derivatives. I asked, "any concerns about the Flanker"?

"None. We just got back from Malaysia and going up against the SU-30. Won 77 of 90 or so engagements...". Now I have to believe pilot training was the biggest factor, but his confidence surprised me. While the Flanker is a supremely capable airframe, it's not without its shortcomings. I have a feeling the Eagle's ability to "reach out and touch someone" has a lot to do with it. WVR, he mentioned the that thrust vectoring was no big deal, they fight Raptors all the time. That, in combination with the 9x leads me to believe any agility advantages the Flanker has have been greatly nullified.

My $.05..
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zero-one

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Unread post06 Aug 2015, 16:55

mixelflick wrote:
"None. We just got back from Malaysia and going up against the SU-30. Won 77 of 90 or so engagements...". Now I have to believe pilot training was the biggest factor, but his confidence surprised me. While the Flanker is a supremely capable airframe, it's not without its shortcomings. I have a feeling the Eagle's ability to "reach out and touch someone" has a lot to do with it. WVR, he mentioned the that thrust vectoring was no big deal, they fight Raptors all the time. That, in combination with the 9x leads me to believe any agility advantages the Flanker has have been greatly nullified.

My $.05..


While I have no doubt on the capabilities of Eagle drivers, lets take this as it is.
Malaysia may have, arguably one of the best airforce in SE Asia,
but they are nohwere near the competence of Russian, Chinese and Indian Flanker drivers.

Their MKMs are also watered down versions of the MKI and J-11B much less the Su-35S or Su-27SM2\SM3
The mere fact that the Eagles lost around 13 engagements against these guys.

How would our Eagle boys fair in 90 engagements against hard core Russian instructors flying the latest Su-27SM3s with R-77s and R-74s

I'm just thankful the Raptor is on our side.
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uclass

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Unread post09 Aug 2015, 19:48

cbale2000 wrote:I was viewing another forum where some guy is arguing that an F-14 (newest model) could take on/beat an F-22.

Now I have tried repeatedly to prove him wrong but he keeps comming up with info about "how an F-14 can track a F-22s heat signature and fire on it before the F-22 could fire", "how the F-14 can manuver better than the F-22", and all sorts of other info that, to me, sounds bogus.


So, what I'm looking for is some solid evidence that an F-22 could beat an F-14. Any information helps. And if the guy is right and an F-14 CAN beat an F-22, please, by all means let me know.


Thanks in advance. :wink:

Was he Iranian by any chance?
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gbigly

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Unread post26 Feb 2017, 22:33

Lawman wrote:Remind him the the F-14 is limited to 6.5 G Maximum because of airframe fatigue and stress concerns. Compaired to the F-22's 9.

Tell him that IRST that would be used to "track" and F-22 only gives you elevation and bearing not range. You need range to conduct an intercept otherwise your just gonna head towards the spot till you have him visual, not a good idea to take an Turkey into a merge with a Raptor. Also the effective range of IRST is way way way lower then even the most basic radar and its not subtible for use in weather.

The Raptor has a higher Sustained and Instinatious turn radius. The Raptor has a much higher thrust to weight ratio allowing it to regain energy far faster then an F-14.

And finally remind him that it takes between 40 and 50 hours to get one F-14 off the ground for one hour of flight time.


Stress fatigue is due to old age, not plane design you doofus. The f-14 pilots would turn 9gs constantly in the f-14 on newer blocks. "But blah blah it can't sustain". Well actually that's not true, during a fly off an F-14A that's A model mind you, one of the first batches of F-14s as well.. had a fly off against an F-15A eagle to see which plane the Shah of Iran wanted to buy. The f-15A was limited to 7.5gs because of it's frame design, whereas even the f-14A was able to pull off 8.5gs and SUSTAIN it while ACCELERATING through the turn - book: Gillcrist, "Tomcat! The grumman f-14 story". Surely, they had burned the fuel down for the A's crappy tf-30 engines to pull it off. But even then I believe the tomcat was still heavier than the eagle with around half it's fuel loaded. This is primarily due to the tomcat's lower wing loading and stronger frame (for carrier suitability). Also, if a plane can turn 9gs all over the place, then it by default can sustain it provided you have enough engine thrust, which the f-110 engiens in the b and D models certainly had.

Tom Cruise here talks about turning 9.5gs in the backseat of an F-14A during Top Gun filming. https://youtu.be/l36BVi8K1uo?t=3m46s

Here is also a video of what looks like an ACTUAL F-14D with it's counter set at "9.1gs" under "current g" indicator during what looks like a training mission.

https://youtu.be/u9IK0QaoBlM?t=11m57s

No plane would be allowed to turn that high instantaneously if it could not structurally sustain it. All that would require you to sustain such high gs, is... AGAIN... enough ENGINE THRUST. The f-4 phantom could probably turn up to 8gs instantaneously but engine power wise only 6.5 - 7gs of sustained turning, for reference. Structural limitations of the f-4 phantom would not allow you to instantaneously turn any higher. So this whole "but it can't sustain it because it isn't built strong enough" bullshit is just that - bullshit.

The IRST on the tomcat can be linked to radar to feed the radar information of where the target is. The IRST can "lock" on a target when paired with the APG-71 radar otherwise it's completely useless in a fighter jet. More than likely the tomcat will get a lock on the raptor before the raptor will be able to get it's amraams in range of the tomcat. One thing the f-22 raptor does have over the tomcat however, is it's ECM capabilities to jam. Certainly though, when the raptor pilot turns that system on, it is also difficult for him to track the tomcat as well because of what it does to the f-22's radar locking.

The tomcat's wings can sweep out to 20 degrees, almost straight out, with 0 degrees being perfectly straight for comparison of course. It's wing loading is much lower than that of the raptor, but it's wing area is really the deal breaker. The tomcat when it's wings are in maximum turning mode will out turn even an f-16. That goes for maneuverability. The f-14 wins.

Also, the eagle is a superior turner compared to the f-22 raptor. The raptor turns sluggish and in a dogfight the F-15 EAGLE will whip the sh*t out of it.
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les_paul59

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Unread post26 Feb 2017, 22:57

My friend, your f14 vs f22 analysis is bordering on delusional....

The tomcat is a legend no doubt, forever immortalized in the movie top gun. But the raptor is in another league
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botsing

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Unread post26 Feb 2017, 23:10

Hey gbigly,

Welcome to F-16.net where we:

* Do not call people names
* Do not use teenage slang
* Backup any extraordinary facts with evidence
* Give room for actual discussion and debate

My advice to you: Currently your post reads like a YouTube comment so you might want to work on that if you want to be taken serious here.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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gbigly

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Unread post26 Feb 2017, 23:37

les_paul59 wrote:My friend, your f14 vs f22 analysis is bordering on delusional....

The tomcat is a legend no doubt, forever immortalized in the movie top gun. But the raptor is in another league


http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Lockh ... _AN/AAS-42

"The General Electric (now Lockheed Martin AN/AAS-42 IRST (Infrared Search and Track) is a passive long-wave infrared sensor system that searches for and detects heat sources within its field of view. Operating in six discrete modes, the AN/AAS-42 provides the aircraft mission computer track file data on all targets while simultaneously providing infrared imagery to the cockpit display. "

The AN/AAS-42 IRST infra red search and track system was only ever found on the F-14D tomcat. Lockheed Martin now (suspiciously) owns the rights to the system, and have developed the "IRST-21" set to go on F-16 falcons and F/A-18 super hornets.
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gbigly

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Unread post26 Feb 2017, 23:39

Guysmiley wrote:Delusional describes it well. An F-14 new out of the box would get spanked up one side and down the other. No question at ALL.

Notice how THEY didn't address the stealth issue, or that the AIM-7's PK is less than stellar? And how even with directing by IRST could a SARH missile track a stealthy airframe?


IRST searches heat, it is not a radar system. It sends what it sees as information to the APG-71. The f-22 is one of the hottest temperature operating jets because of it's stealth contrours and black absorbant paint. It sticks out like a sore thumb to infrared.

Just because you can point a radar doesn't mean you get a return. And while the F-14 is doing this magical IRST+SARH missile dance a Raptor could pop out an AMRAAM then turn tail and light the burners. Tomcat loses.


Seriously? More chat bots to dumb down and derail a thread... that's all I ever see anymore.

(edit)

Hehe I just thought of somethin else. I wonder if the F-14 RIO could see the AMRAAM drop and light? I'm betting that'd increase the pucker factor. :D


Phoenix has longer range and is much faster than an amraam.
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garrya

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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 00:30

gbigly wrote:Stress fatigue is due to old age, not plane design you doofus. The f-14 pilots would turn 9gs constantly in the f-14 on newer blocks.

Structure G limit according to F-14 flight manual is about 6.5G and go down if aircraft weight go up. You can theorically turn higher G but there could be structure problem such as a few rivets felt of here and there
Image

gbigly wrote: Well actually that's not true, during a fly off an F-14A that's A model mind you, one of the first batches of F-14s as well.. had a fly off against an F-15A eagle to see which plane the Shah of Iran wanted to buy. The f-15A was limited to 7.5gs because of it's frame design

No, the structure G limit on both F-15C and F-14 are similar ( airframe design), all aircraft can excess the recommended structure G limit but there could be problem ( even though not always)
Image

gbigly wrote:
Tom Cruise here talks about turning 9.5gs in the backseat of an F-14A during Top Gun filming. https://youtu.be/l36BVi8K1uo?t=3m46s

Here is also a video of what looks like an ACTUAL F-14D with it's counter set at "9.1gs" under "current g" indicator during what looks like a training mission.
https://youtu.be/u9IK0QaoBlM?t=11m57s

an exception shouldn't be treated as the rule,there are cases of F-4 turn 12 G and Mig-25 turn 8G before. Given the right speed and right altitude, they can turn very high G. But those are not recommended.






gbigly wrote: The IRST on the tomcat can be linked to radar to feed the radar information of where the target is. The IRST can "lock" on a target when paired with the APG-71 radar otherwise it's completely useless in a fighter jet. More than likely the tomcat will get a lock on the raptor before the raptor will be able to get it's amraams in range of the tomcat

The whole point of stealth is to reduce RCS enough so that adversary radar can't get enough return to distinguish/detect your aircraft from background and internal noise. Even in best case scenario, APG-71 will not be able to detect F-22 return much further than visual distance.
Secondly, the extremely long detection range of IRST is only achieved in perfect condition ( good weather, tail aspect target against sky background, minimum FoV ). In less than perfect condition such as against head on aspect, the detection range is much shorter.
Image

Moreover, IRST scan rate is much slower than radar, especially in case of AAS-42 which is a scanning array IRST.So it will need something else to cued

gbigly wrote: The tomcat's wings can sweep out to 20 degrees, almost straight out, with 0 degrees being perfectly straight for comparison of course. It's wing loading is much lower than that of the raptor, but it's wing area is really the deal breaker. The tomcat when it's wings are in maximum turning mode will out turn even an f-16. That goes for maneuverability. The f-14 wins.

No, F-14 excess at low speed dogfight while F-16 and F-15 excess at high speed dogfight
Image
Image

As can be seen from the flight manual, for example at 5000 feet, F-14 maximum sustained turn rate is around 14 degrees/second at around Mach 0.6-0.65. F-16 maximum sustained turn rate is around the same 14 degrees/ seconds but at around Mach 0.85. So It like the Hell Cat vs the Zero all over again. F-16 will try to stay fast while F-14D will like fight slow

However, main advantages that F-16 and F-15 have over F-14 are their much superior T/W. So at any point they can take the horizontal fight to vertical where F-14 cannot follow them.If we consider that F-14 pilot fly around the best speed to turn ( Mach 0.65) then he will have even less kinetic energy to follow F-15, F-16 pilots. Another advantage of F-16 is roll rate because it is a single engine aircraft with very high wing loading
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 01:19

Wow. I feel dumber for having read that nonsense. There isn't one accurate statement, in that delusional rant.
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les_paul59

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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 01:22

@gbigly

you are misguided in the effectiveness and usefulness of the irst sensor. For one it is really only good when the weather is clear and when it can be cued by the radar. Your theory of pointing the radar from the infra red return of the "supposedly" hot raptor is flawed. You could point the f-14 radar at the raptor all day, it doesn't mean you will track it. Why do you think the f-22 cost 150 million each? so they can get killed by 1970's tech?

by the way you can't launch a radar guided missile without range information, and if your radar can't track an f-22 you aren't going to find the raptor or shoot a bvr missile at it.
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 14:06

If this dude/troll is right, we might as well put our Raptors in mothballs and start building F-14's again, LOL. And we need to fear the Iranians. Surely, their upgraded almost 40 year old F-14's will make mincemeat out of F-15's, 16's, 18's and 22's.

I can understand being an F-14 fan, but this is too much. There isn't any competition here. By every single measure, the F-22 is superior. That goes for AMRAAM vs. AIM-54 too btw, considering launch energy imparted to the AMRAAM...
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Unread post27 Feb 2017, 17:27

mixelflick wrote:That goes for AMRAAM vs. AIM-54 too btw, considering launch energy imparted to the AMRAAM...

Or that the -120D has almost the same flight profile/range as the -54C anyway.
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