YF-22 vs YF-23

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zero-one

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Unread post24 Feb 2019, 08:33

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Actually I never crunched numbers on the ATF prototypes. There is no where near enough information on their performance. I have gut feelings, but that's about it.


Good enough for me.
What are your gut feelings on each plane?
We got engine power, dimensions, wing sweep angles, empty weights.

By the way Paul Metz talked about the DEM/VAL phase being a 3 part competition, Airframe design, engines, avionics
The YF-22 and 23 only represented the airframe competition
The YF-119 and YF-120 represented the engines
Both said competitions went neck and neck and a lot of people still feel that the better designs lost.
but what about the Avionics,
Northrop won the Radar, Lockheed won the I/R Ultraviolet MLD and BAE won the RWR/EW suit. But who did they go up against?
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Unread post24 Feb 2019, 11:01

“...a lot of people still feel that the better designs lost.”

The losers always say that.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post24 Feb 2019, 15:42

zero-one wrote:
Good enough for me.
What are your gut feelings on each plane?
We got engine power, dimensions, wing sweep angles, empty weights.


I feel that the fact that with any given engine the YF-23 cruised faster speaks volumes to having the lower wave drag, but with the area ruling that went into the design I am hardly surprised. Both had a trimmed 60deg AoA. This tells me that the giant V-Tail of the YF-23 was plenty capable in generating pitch forces. The use of TV on the YF-22 simply gave higher margins and allows for a QUICKER response. Both planes could have identical max AoA, max Lift, and max G, but the TVC could allow the YF-22 to have the superior onset rates. Also, the use of TVC in pitch only means that the tailplanes of the YF-22 are available for roll/yaw without impacting the primary AoA generating device. The TVC is what is pulling the tail down. On the YF-23 the tails are what pulls the tail down, meaning any use of them in a differential manner to effect roll/yaw lessens the pitch load. In this sense, even with the info we have, the YF-22 was certainly more maneuverable. It had more capability, especially on the edge, than the YF-23.
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Unread post24 Feb 2019, 15:52

Which was more maneuverable and why will be eternally debated. Which begs the question...

Why didn't the USAF more directly pit one against the other? We'd know for sure which was the more maneuverable and why, then could ascertain why this metric or that metric mattered the most - given the USAF picked the F-22.

Would seem a much better (and cheaper) way for both the USAF and F-16.net to get the answers we are seeking...
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