YF-22 vs YF-23

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zero-one

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Unread post17 Sep 2018, 15:08

disconnectedradical wrote:You were talking about acceleration.


No I was asking if the pilot's response was somehow a comparison between acceleration and Energy retention numbers of the F-22 and the YF- 23. you respond as if I'm making claims when in reality, I'm asking a question.

disconnectedradical wrote:How can you make this comparison and analogy of F-35A vs F-35C when YF-23 and YF-22 fuselage are so different?

All I'm saying is a bigger wing usually translates into higher deceleration rates. Now if you have evidence that suggest the YF-23 will still maintain Energy and acceleration advantages over the YF-22 then please share.

Your argument that the YF-22 will have more surface area due to having more tail surfaces than the YF-23 is pretty much the same simplistic eyeball analysis of their drag profile as my bigger wing argument.


disconnectedradical wrote:You clearly don't know how this works.


Well I'm not going to claim to know how it works. From people that I know in the USAF, word can spread inside aviation circles that they were not "supposed" to know.

Gums shared a lot of insights about the F-35 before a lot of us got to know it. He had absolutely no business knowing that. They don't need to know specifics, a simple "the YF-22 accelerates faster" comment from one of the test pilots could spread like wildfire without breaking classified information protocols.

disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 lost volume over YF-22 especially in rear fuselage and is also a bit shorter.

But is still 10,000 lbs heavier
disconnectedradical wrote:F-23 is actually longer than YF-23 and looking at cross sections the fuselage volume increased especially at middle.

Hence will be much heavier.
disconnectedradical wrote:Why are you obsessed with making F-22 best at everything? It's a great aircraft but it's not magically unbeatable.


the YF-22 prototype beat the YF-23 and post above clearly says why. I'm not saying its undefeatable but it is better than than anything in service in A-A and better than a fictional F-23 variant.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post09 Oct 2018, 16:34

zero-one wrote:No I was asking if the pilot's response was somehow a comparison between acceleration and Energy retention numbers of the F-22 and the YF- 23. you respond as if I'm making claims when in reality, I'm asking a question.


The way the article is written seems like the quote from F-22 pilot is taken in context of how F-22 use supercruise and not YF-23 vs YF-22.

zero-one wrote:All I'm saying is a bigger wing usually translates into higher deceleration rates. Now if you have evidence that suggest the YF-23 will still maintain Energy and acceleration advantages over the YF-22 then please share.

Your argument that the YF-22 will have more surface area due to having more tail surfaces than the YF-23 is pretty much the same simplistic eyeball analysis of their drag profile as my bigger wing argument.


No, higher DRAG translates into higher deceleration rates (assuming same mass). This is physics 101. Just because YF-23 have bigger wing does NOT mean it has higher drag, 2 tail surface instead of 4 tail surface on YF-22 also means lower surface area and drag. YF-23 fineness ratio is better, which will mean lower wave drag than YF-22. YF-22 might have lower induced drag because of higher AR, but both aircraft are low AR so there are many other factors. YF-23 met ATF maneuver requirements anyways and USAF reason for choosing YF-22 even said it was because "better value" instead of just YF-22 was better.

zero-one wrote:Well I'm not going to claim to know how it works. From people that I know in the USAF, word can spread inside aviation circles that they were not "supposed" to know.

Gums shared a lot of insights about the F-35 before a lot of us got to know it. He had absolutely no business knowing that. They don't need to know specifics, a simple "the YF-22 accelerates faster" comment from one of the test pilots could spread like wildfire without breaking classified information protocols.


YF-23 was a PROTOTYPE with development not finished, why would USAF especially ACC be privy to all the details? Also Paul Metz flew both YF-23 and F-22 yet never said which one flew better.

zero-one wrote:the YF-22 prototype beat the YF-23 and post above clearly says why. I'm not saying its undefeatable but it is better than than anything in service in A-A and better than a fictional F-23 variant.


Again, USAF reason for choosing YF-22 even said it was because "better value" instead of just YF-22 was better.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post11 Oct 2018, 18:06

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ened-33116

While the Raptor has evolved into the single most capable air superiority fighter ever built, the YF-23 design—especially when combined with General Electric’s YF-120 variable cycle engines —was arguably more advanced. Compared to the YF-22, the YF-23 was faster and stealthier, but many have argued that it was less maneuverable than the thrust vector controlled precursor to the Raptor. However, the difference in maneuverability between the two designs was far slimmer than many might have imagined.

“Interestingly the YF-22 and YF-23 had exactly the same trimmed AoA [angle of attack] of 60° [degrees],” Paul Metz, who was Northrop’s test pilot for the first YF-23 prototype and who later became Lockheed Martin’s chief test pilot for the F-22, told me in an email in 2015. “The YF-23 could do it without thrust vectoring. Those V-tails are very powerful especially when coupled to an unstable airframe.”
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Unread post12 Oct 2018, 10:06

zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 lost volume over YF-22 especially in rear fuselage and is also a bit shorter.

But is still 10,000 lbs heavier
disconnectedradical wrote:F-23 is actually longer than YF-23 and looking at cross sections the fuselage volume increased especially at middle.

Hence will be much heavier.
disconnectedradical wrote:Why are you obsessed with making F-22 best at everything? It's a great aircraft but it's not magically unbeatable.


the YF-22 prototype beat the YF-23 and post above clearly says why. I'm not saying its undefeatable but it is better than than anything in service in A-A and better than a fictional F-23 variant.


F-22 and YF-22 material wise are similar, F-23 and YF-23 aren't. F-23 would be plastic plane (over 50% of plane weight would be composites). YF-23 was metal plane. So we can't use F-22 and YF-22 analogy.

YF-22 was more agile that is sure but YF-23 had much better supersonic range, this was confirmed by Northrop ATF folks, YF-23 could do whole sortie flying supersonic and F-23 would be even better because it would carry more fuel then YF-23.
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