AN/APG-77 detection range

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marian159

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Unread post10 Dec 2017, 20:14

zero-one wrote:
wewuzkangz wrote:RCS of 1 at 400km oh come on Wiki even states that it is from an unconfirmed sources. Australia airforce net shows a lesser range than that.


whenever reading APA, you need to be very careful.
he usually uses terms like
"estimated to be", "expected to be", "seems to be", "most likely", "probably".

This means that he has no actual data and is simply doing a wild guess based on his opinion.

I still can't get over how he compares the combat Thrust to weight ratio of the F-35 and Su-30, theyr're actually roughly equal with the F-35A having a slight advantage. But he extends the Su-30's T/W ratio by using AL-37 engines. News flash the AL-37 is just an Experimental derivative for the Su-37 demo plane.

See what he did there?

Only wiki shows range 400km against 1m2, if you got something share it, thanks
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falcon.16

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Unread post22 Sep 2018, 16:29

kapcapkap wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
ferry265 wrote:Hello. I did read sometimes that Raptor´s radar AN/APG-77 can detect 1m2 on 400km away. Is that true ?
Thanks for answer. :wink:


Make that 407km away.

Revised and updated DOD specs, for PAK FA program management to shoot for...


Can you please provide a link, or other means of finding this source, for this information; it would be a very useful source to cite. Thank you.


This was written many years ago, so yes, i think it is very possible.

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Source: Aviation Week, Jan. 2007.
https://www.webcitation.org/6Qpsm5PUo?u ... 010807.pdf
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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Sep 2018, 13:58

That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?
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wrightwing

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Unread post24 Sep 2018, 15:19

mixelflick wrote:That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?

That's the MSA radar, not the AESA radar. It's also for 1m^2 targets.
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swiss

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Unread post25 Sep 2018, 14:32

wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?

That's the MSA radar, not the AESA radar. It's also for 1m^2 targets.


But even for the APG-70, this performance is bad. The small RDI Radar from Mirage 2000 in the 80s comes close to that Range.

According to this document the APG-70 has a range of 185 km against a Air target. I assume 3-5 m2.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... _RECNO=729
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lrrpf52

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Unread post28 Sep 2018, 01:08

mixelflick wrote:That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?


There was an F-4E crew member who said the APQ-120 detected 737s out of Las Vegas at well over 200nm all the time back in the 1970s.

It all depends on RCS, atmospherics, altitude, which APG-63 we're talking about, etc.

Radar detection range isn't a static number.
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falcon.16

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Unread post28 Sep 2018, 22:46

swiss wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?

That's the MSA radar, not the AESA radar. It's also for 1m^2 targets.


But even for the APG-70, this performance is bad. The small RDI Radar from Mirage 2000 in the 80s comes close to that Range.

According to this document the APG-70 has a range of 185 km against a Air target. I assume 3-5 m2.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... _RECNO=729


But the most powerful russian radar now inside the Su-35 S, the Irbis E, has a detection range around 200 kms for 3 m2 rcs. It is similar to the APG-70, from many decades ago.
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sinusoiddelta

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 01:25

mixelflick wrote:That 56 mile/F-15 figure is an old one though, no? These were Eagles used during Desert Storm, and don't take into account the newer AESA radars. Surely, they have the capability of looking beyond 56 miles??

If not, then carrying the AIM-120D is going to be self limiting. It reportedly has a range of 100 miles (or thereabouts), so a radar with roughly half that range is really selling the weapon short. I think I even read once that the new AESA's going into Eagles were MORE powerful than the F-22's AN/APG-77.

Am I off base here, or not understanding correctly?


I also recall reading (can’t remember where) something to the effect raptor pilots being jealous of the AN/APG-63(V)3 capabilities. Regardless, a 56 mile detection range sounds like a very cautious estimate, even for the pre-MSIP eagles.

An estimated detection range for a ‘medium sized’ target can be found in this document: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a142071.pdf
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wrightwing

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 01:29

swiss wrote:
But even for the APG-70, this performance is bad. The small RDI Radar from Mirage 2000 in the 80s comes close to that Range.

According to this document the APG-70 has a range of 185 km against a Air target. I assume 3-5 m2.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... _RECNO=729


185km vs 3-5m^2 target. Not a 1m^2 target. Of course, no 4th generation aircraft (or earlier generations) are 1m^2, when carrying weapons and fuel tanks.
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wrightwing

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 03:49

falcon.16 wrote:


But the most powerful russian radar now inside the Su-35 S, the Irbis E, has a detection range around 200 kms for 3 m2 rcs. It is similar to the APG-70, from many decades ago.

That's 200km in look up mode (with 55% probability of detection), and ~170 to 180km in look down mode.
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swiss

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 00:36

falcon.16 wrote:
swiss wrote:But even for the APG-70, this performance is bad. The small RDI Radar from Mirage 2000 in the 80s comes close to that Range.

According to this document the APG-70 has a range of 185 km against a Air target. I assume 3-5 m2.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... _RECNO=729


But the most powerful russian radar now inside the Su-35 S, the Irbis E, has a detection range around 200 kms for 3 m2 rcs. It is similar to the APG-70, from many decades ago.


True that. Same goes for SAR resolution. The APG-70 had 2.6m. Ibris-E has 3m. The more modern non AESA radar APG-68(v)9 has a resolution of 0.6m.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110526024 ... /APG68.pdf

And as wrightwing said. The probability of detection is much lower then in western radars (90%).
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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 11:27

swiss wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:
swiss wrote:But even for the APG-70, this performance is bad. The small RDI Radar from Mirage 2000 in the 80s comes close to that Range.

According to this document the APG-70 has a range of 185 km against a Air target. I assume 3-5 m2.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... _RECNO=729


But the most powerful russian radar now inside the Su-35 S, the Irbis E, has a detection range around 200 kms for 3 m2 rcs. It is similar to the APG-70, from many decades ago.


True that. Same goes for SAR resolution. The APG-70 had 2.6m. Ibris-E has 3m. The more modern non AESA radar APG-68(v)9 has a resolution of 0.6m.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110526024 ... /APG68.pdf

And as wrightwing said. The probability of detection is much lower then in western radars (90%).


Yes, radar Captor from EF-2000 has 0,3 meters resolution SAR, it is 10 times less than better russian radar. And it is not aesa radar. I think Aesa Captor E will be around 0,10 meters resolution.
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