F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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gta4

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Unread post05 Dec 2015, 00:52

Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
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wil59

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Unread post05 Dec 2015, 17:54

gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false
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botsing

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Unread post05 Dec 2015, 18:11

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:...
this is false

Do you have any sources or other information to back up your claim that this is false?

Just stating that something is false without explaining why seems so empty to me.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 15:35

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 17:13

duplex wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??
The participation of six combat aircrafts Rafale F3 in the recent Air Tactical Leadership Chases (ATLC) which was held in the United Arab Emirates from November 15th to December 9th was “a total success”. “We made full paperboard” ensures the lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, ordering of the squadron 1/7 Provence (Saint-Dizier).

The participation in this great international exercise was very important for France whereas the negotiations for the sale of 60 Rafale to WATER continue. Clearly, a good point was marked by the French near their colleagues émiriens. The more so as the availability of the Rafale was “exemplary”: they have pû to take part in all the exercises at a rate of two patrols of four planes per day, since the base of Al Dhafra

The “plate” joined together for this ATLP was impressive: F-16 C/D block 60 and Mirage 2000-9 (Emirates), F-16 MLU (Jordan), F-7 [a version modernized of Mig-21] (Pakistan), Typhoon [Eurofighter] (the United Kingdom) and F-16 CJ and F-22 (the United States). More of Awacs and the tankers. The exercise consists in simulating important raids, to forty planes, in “realistic missions representative of a conflict of high intensity”. The devices must cope with an air and ground-to-air oppositon.

The plan of the aerial combat, its optronic frontal sector (OSF) made it possible the Rafale to visually identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, whereas the usual identification in air defense is done between three and five kilometers. As regards electronic warfare, the Gusts detected ground-to-air threats that American F-16 CJ, of which it is the principal vocation, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the shooting of six air-to-ground ammunition (A2SM) on 6 objectives different (programmed) at a distance from 20 to 40 kilometers, then to fire three air-to-air missiles Mica, the whole in a minute - what testifies to the versatility of the plane.

During air-to-air confrontations, the Rafale “put sheets” at Typhoons of Royal Air Force, ensures the Grandclaudon lieutenant-colonel. In degraded version, to four against four, the Rafale carried out scores from 4 to 0 and 3 to 1.

The French combat aircraft also rubbed in F-22, the most modern hunter of USAF. During a meeting, they clashed with six recoveries, F-22 putting one blow at the goal.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... irats/.The history had made great noise. In November 2009, international exercise Air Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) organisé with the Arab Emirates linked, of the Rafale of the Squadron of Hunting 1/7 Provence étaient particulièrement emphasized face à of Eurofighter of Royal Air Force and F-22 Raptor américains.

In dog fight (combat aérien rapproché), the Rafale showed its qualités. Thus, in a combat 4 against 4, the pilots français réalisèrent scores of 4 à 0 and 3 à 1 during two confrontations against Typhoon of Royal Air Force.

But what been able surpendre their counterparts américains was the behavior of the Rafale vis-a-vis F-22 Raptor, this last having réussi only à to put that only one blow at the goal in 6 confrontations. It is at least what had été said à époque.

Grâce with the “Portal of Aviation “, here of the images taken at the time of this exercise and showing F-22 Raptor in the line of sight of a Rafale. It should be noted that Dassault Aviation had diffusé opportunément, à the occasion of Lima Air Show 2011 in Malaysia, of the photographs on which one could see the plane américain in fâcheuse posture face à the device français. It is of good tone to rétablir some badly vérités, put the done everything à by marketing and idées!


En savoir plus sur http://www.opex360.com/2013/06/18/un-f- ... 363fDvG.99 http://airforces.fr/2010/02/14/french-f ... formance/#
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 17:40

duplex wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??
Detect

As shown before, F-22 will detect Rafale at 135-200 km. Rafale will detect F-22 at 11-22 km with radar or at 80-100 km with IRST. However, radar is an active sensor, which means that it can be detected at far greater distance than its own detection range. Even assuming that target is a flat plate and that entirety of the signal reaches it, radar will get back 1/16th of the signal – at best. RCS comparison shows automobile to have an RCS of 100 m2 (likely from the side; from the front, 25-50 m2 value can be expected), whereas Rafale has RCS of ~1 m2 when armed. Consequently, F-22s radar receives less than 1/400th of the signal that was sent out. Even when aperture size difference between RWR and radar is accounted for, Rafale will detect F-22s radar signal at two times the distance (>350 km), possibly as much as several times farther (note that radar horizon at 10.000 m is at distance of 825 km). Since both fighters have extensive ESM capabilities, radar is not likely to be used.

When it comes to IR signature, Rafale’s smaller size and lesser thrust will give it advantage over F-22. Difference will be somewhat reduced by the fact that F-22 can match Rafale’s supercruise capability without using full dry thrust. Both aircraft have provisions for reduced IR signature, particularly in terms of hiding exhaust plume, but F-22 at the present has no IRST (and is unlikely to get it, even though provision exists). OSF may detect F-22 at 80-100 km (or more) from the front and 120-160 km from the rear; F-22 will have to get within visual distance (6-9 km) or use radar to detect Rafale; in either case, Rafale has “first look, first shot” advantage. Further, Rafale can use OSF’s visual camera to identify F-22 at ~45-50 km, or IRST with ~40 km identification range. F-22 pilot will have to come within cca 400-800 meters from target to establish positive VID. NCTR works at longer ranges, but is very unreliable (30% identification reliability at best) and can be disabled by jamming or by target maneuvering. Because of this, 82% of the enemy aircraft engaged during Desert Storm had to be identified with help of AWACS, which will not be avaliable against a competent opponents as comlinks will be jammed, and AWACS aircraft will not survive for long anyway. Consequently, F-22 is an exclusively visual-range dogfighter and is as such at disadvantage against Rafale which has actually useful BVR capability.

Engage

Rafale has cruise speed of Mach 1,4 with 6 missiles, and top speed of Mach 2,0. F-22 has cruise speed of Mach 1,75 and top speed of Mach 2,0. In both cases top speed limit is caused by air intake design, leaving excess thrust for maneuvering even at maximum speed. Cruise speed advantage allows F-22 to more-or-less dictate terms of engagement, though its ability to do so is reduced by its endurance disadvantage (while F-22 can extend endurance by cruising at slower speed, its lower fuel fraction suggests inferior endurance. At Mach 1,5 and 40.000 ft, F-22 can cover 0,035 nautic miles per pound of fuel. 30% (5.400 lbs) of fuel allows it to cover 189 nm or 350 km, though it should be noted that this is based on actual fuel consumption; Rafale’s endurance in such scenario is likely significantly greater than what was calculated here, still leaving F-22 at endurance disadvantage). That being said, higher cruise speed and faster acceleration will allow F-22 to reach maximum speed more quickly than Rafale will be able to reach its own maximum speed. This is assuming that either fighter will actually have time to do so.

Rafale’s service ceilling of 59.055 ft is lower than F-22s 65.000 ft limit. This altitude advantage will give F-22 a measure of superiority in air-to-air combat, assuming that IFF problem is solved (for example, by the enemy using active radars). Combination of altitude and cruise speed / dash speed advantage will give F-22 advantage in effective missile range while reducing Rafale’s missile range. It will increase Rafale’s detection range v/s F-22, but will still enable F-22 first shot capability assuming that it can identify and target Rafale.

As shown before, Rafale will be able to attack the F-22 from distance of 70 km. F-22 may be able to attack Rafale from 20-158 km with radar, but doing so will allow Rafale to target it from 160-200 km with SPECTRA. Both aircraft can use their RWRs to cue other sensors (radar, and in Rafale’s case, IRST). F-22 may have disposable jammers, giving it advantage over Rafale, but there is no definite confirmation as far as I was able to determine. Rafale has major advantage in that it has IR BVRAAM, which gives it greater hit probability, as well as the ability to surprise the enemy when combined with IRST. Rafale can engage targets at their six o’clock through usage of onboard sensors, improving its dogfighting performance when compared to F-22.

Defeat the missile / disengage

Once warned of a missile launch, first reaction is to properly position the aircraft for evasion. At beyond visual range, it is oftentimes enough to turn the aircraft away from the missile. At shorter ranges (near-visual and visual range), pilot has to quickly position the missile to the aircraft’s 3 or 9 o’clock and then turn into the missile once close enough. Both of these require high instantaneous turn capability, as well as acceleration / climb to recover lost energy. Rafale has instantaneous turn rate of 36,4 deg/s and maximum climb rate of 305 m/s. F-22 has instantaneous turn rate of 35 deg/s, acceleration time from M 0,8 to M 1,2 of 55 s and maximum climb rate of 350 m/s. This means that Rafale will have minor advantage when evading missiles.

Rafale and F-22 both have 360* coverage with RWR and MAWS, and frontal-sector-only coverage with radar and, in Rafale’s case, IRST. Rafale’s RBE-2 has 120* field of regard, which is identical for F-22s AN/APG-77. RBE-2 AESA has 140* field of regard. Consequently, neither aircraft will be able to track another one with radar or IRST while engaging in defensive maneuvers. Either aircraft that uses radar allows itself to be tracked through opponent’s defensive systems.

There is also an issue of fuel reserves for maneuvering. Assuming that both aircraft have 40% of the fuel avaliable for maneuvers, Rafale will have enough fuel for 4,54 minutes of maximum afterburner while F-22 will have enough fuel for 3,23 minutes of maximum afterburner. However, maneuvering endurance is more important. Comparison will assume 360* corner-speed sustained turn followed by an equivalent of 10.000 m climb at maximum (initial) climb speed. Rafale will use 13,19 seconds for a turn and 32,79 seconds for climb, for a total of 45,98 seconds of maximum afterburner and 5,92 maneuvers. F-22 will use 12,86 seconds for turn and 28,57 seconds for climb, for a total of 41,43 seconds of maximum afterburner and 4,68 maneuvers. As it can be seen, Rafale has higher combat endurance despite somewhat lower energy performance. (Note here that this is based on sea-level figures; at 30.000 ft, actual thrust and fuel consumption will be closer to 1/3rd of those used, which will extend endurance.).

In terms of countermeasures, Rafale has onboard jammers, chaff and flares; SPECTRA is also capable of reducing aircraft’s RCS through active cancellation, though this is likely only an option against older-type radars. It does make it immune to home-on-jam mode of modern missiles. F-22 has chaff and flares; it could also theoretically carry disposable jammers but has no internal jammer installed. It can use its radar for jamming, but it only covers 120* forward cone and to do so it has to sacrifice frequency agility, making it vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles. That being said, F-22s low radar crossection makes usage of onboard jammer less beneficial than for most other aircraft, but also increases effectiveness of jamming when it is used.

Destroy

F-22 has AIM-120 with maximum engagement range of 180 km. This is significantly superior to 80 km range of MICA RF. MBDA Meteor with 315 km range will enter service in 2019, giving Rafale range advantage. However, while Rafale has MICA IR with 80 km range for IR BVRAAM, F-22 has no IR beyond visual range missile. When combined with lack of IRST, this makes F-22 incapable of surprising the opponent, especially if offboard sensors are unavaliable.

In terms of agility, AIM-120D and Meteor can both pull 40 g at Mach 4 and MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4. This means that maximum turn rate is 18,54 deg/s for AIM-120 and Meteor and 23,2 deg/s for MICA IR. Comparing this to respective aircraft turn rates (36,4 deg/s ITR for Rafale and 35 deg/s ITR for F-22), it can be seen that both aircraft have a good chance of evading any of the missiles listed (missile needs to at least match aircraft’s turn rate, and in some cases have twice as high turn rate, in order to hit).

AIM-120D has warhead weight of 23 kg, compared to 12 kg for MICA. Consequently, lack of agility is compensated for by larger warhead weight. Assuming perfectly cylindrical propagation pattern, AIM-120D has 1,4 times as large lethal radius as MICA while MICA has 25% better turn rate.

When it comes to WVR missiles, Rafale carries MICA while F-22 carries AIM-9X. AIM-9X has maximum engagement range of 26 km, while Rafale’s MICA IR has range of 80 km, giving Rafale significant range advantage when using IR missiles. MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4, giving it ITR of 23,2 deg/s while AIM-9X can pull 50 g at Mach 2,7, giving it ITR of 34,4 deg/s. It can be seen that MICA is far less dangerous to F-22 than AIM-9X is to Rafale in visual-range combat. This performance disadvantage is only somewhat compensated for by the fact that F-22 will typically carry missiles internally, requiring launch bay doors to open before launching the missile.

In terms of gun lethality, Rafale uses GIAT 30 revolver cannon while F-22 uses M61A2 rotary gun. GIAT-30 fires 275 g projectile with 17,5% HEI content (~48 g) at 1.025 m/s muzzle velocity. M61A2 fires 102 g projectile with 10,3% HEI content (~11 g) at 1.050 m/s muzzle velocity. Further, GIAT-30 projectiles have crossectional density of 38,9 g/cm2 compared to 32,47 g/cm2 for M61A2, leading to slower loss of speed. Combination of these factors gives GIAT 30 significantly higher per-projectile effectiveness. Further, F-22 has to open up gun trap doors to use the gun, which adds 0,5 second delay. Even if gun doors are opened beforehand, GIAT 30 will fire 19 projectiles in first 0,5 seconds, compared to 37 projectiles for M61A2. This gives total throw weight of 5,23 kg for GIAT 30, with 0,91 kg of HEI. M61A2 has total throw weight of 3,77 kg with 0,39 kg of HEI. As it can be seen, GIAT 30 is significantly more lethal than M61A2.

Ground survivability

Ground survivability includes possibility of camouflage and ability to operate from road bases. Latter includes STOL capability, wingspan limits, fuel consumption and ease of maintenance considerations. Wingspan should not be greater than 8,74 meters.

Rafale can take off in 590 meters (rolling takeoff) and land in 490 meters. Wingspan is 10,8 meters. Fuel consumption is 1.330 (?) kg/h cruise, 7.808 kg/h at maximum dry thrust and 25.126 kg/h afterburning.

F-22 can take off in 480 meters and land in 200 meters. Wingspan is 13,56 meters. Fuel consumption is 0,07 nautical miles per pound of fuel at Mach 0,8 and 30.000 ft (standard cruise profile), which translates into 5.890 lbs or 2.672 kg/h fuel consumption during cruise. Fuel consumption at maximum dry thrust is 19.936 kg/h and at afterburner 60.894 kg/h.

As it can be seen, there is significant difference in aircraft on-ground survivability in Rafale’s favor. Rafale also requires far smaller maintenance support and far less fuel for operations, leading to reduced logistical footprint.

Conclusion

While both aircraft have (oftentimes significant) advantages over each other in air-to-air combat, deciding factor will most likely be pilot’s skill. Overall, Rafale can be considered slightly superior to the F-22 even in “sterile” comparison. When it comes to things that matter the most in air war – pilot skill, field supportability, basing flexibility and on-ground survivability – Rafale is significantly superior to the F-22. In the air, Rafale will be unable to regularly surprise the F-22 due to its lack of cruise performance, while F-22 wil be unable to surprise Rafale due to its lack of IRST. However, F-22 will have significant kinematic advantage due to higher cruise speed and service ceilling. In dogfight, Rafale will have superior transient performance while F-22 will be superior at energy management.

Further reading

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -analysis/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -analysis/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -aircraft/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -fighters/
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:01

wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:05

At least in the eyes of french pilots, the raptor has two big advantages in maneuverability: High-alpha pointing, and energy retention.
5.jpg
Last edited by gta4 on 06 Dec 2015, 19:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:09

wil59 wrote:Further reading




Picard578!! :doh:
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:19

And wil59, please stop thinking putting an video showing F-22 in the line of Rafale's sight could prove that Rafale won at least once. As I have mentioned before:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:31

gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:55

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Haha, but even in the 5 "no results=draw" dogfights, the Rafale was still "resisting" all the time (A&C April 2010), which means F-22 still had an edge.

"Draw" is superficial. If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have achieved positive nose pointing via extreme AOA way earlier than the Rafale.
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 19:57

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Rafale pilots think there were no BVR engagements because he did not know F-22 was shooting them in BVR. That's the reason.
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 11:55



Seriously? :wtf:

If you want to take his massive amounts of bovine fecal matter as fact... perhaps you should read his other pieces...

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... omparison/

It is :( that anyone can type up some long winded piece of garbage and people on the interwebs will take it as fact and shun any ACTUAL/OFFICIAL or HISTORICAL evidence put forth that not only contradicts but all out smashes said garbage...
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 12:30

gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Rafale pilots think there were no BVR engagements because he did not know F-22 was shooting them in BVR. That's the reason.
custom Air Force declared that only dogfight have stays carried out, not of combat bvr the rules were fixed; all that is refuse of journalists anglo/Saxon who do not want to recognize that the rafale so good stays and one invented this rumour of combat bvr to make believe the f-22 is better.if you remained on this rumour then ok give an irrefutable proof
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