F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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niafron

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Unread post15 Mar 2017, 22:40

In WVR?

September 2009 at Solenzara air base ( Corsica). 9 gun kill for the Rafale against 1 for the Typhoon (RAF).

A the ATLC, 7 to 1 for the Rafale, but i think it was medium range engagement rather than WVR ( not totaly sure, anyway one more time against the RAF).

Since that, the Typhoon made some progress, there's a story of 2 one to one encouter between a Rafale and a german Typhoon in France ( the German pilot is said to be an instructor who passed some time Inside a french squadron, thusfar having a good Knowledge of french pilots and their tactics).

The Typhoon had the upper hand, probably cause the encounter occured at high altitude ( Typhoon's engines are said to be better than those of the Rafale above 30,000 feet).

According to the rumour, BVR exercise were frequent but keeped secret. It seem the two planes are pretty closed in BVR with maybe a slight advantage for the Rafale.

Finaly, another element was the technical evaluation of the swiss air force who gave another slight advantage to the Rafale for A2A missions ( and without surprise, the Typhoon was no match for A2G).

So the Rafale proved to be Superior until now, but it was some Delay in the Typhoon program. With an AESA radar, the Typhoon could maybe take the lead in BVR combat.

But there's something important about all these elements: it's impossible to know if the planes made a full use of their most sophistacated ( and top secret) devices.

Concerning Rafale, little is known about SPECTRA real capabilities...

I know verry few things concerning Rafale vs Grippen, but honestly, it seem the only advantage of the swedish plane is the price... wich however is very important for medium sized air force.

For Russian planes, i have no informations excepting maybe Indian Air Force favoured the Rafale over Su-30 in a pretty honest competition ( a rare thing, considering the fact political factors are tremendously important regarding weapon's sales).
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niafron

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Unread post16 Mar 2017, 09:47

The swiss air force Report ( leaked a long time ago by a Swiss newspaper, nothing confidential anymore):

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icemaverick

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Unread post16 Mar 2017, 12:37

The Rafale didn't go up against the Su-30MKI in any competition. The Su-30 was not a candidate in the MMRCA competition you are referring to. Rather, the Rafale beat out the Typhoon, Gripen, advanced F-16, Super Hornet and MiG-35. But it is most telling that India is buying the Rafale, which is considerably more expensive than the Su-30MKI. It seems that the Rafale will be used more for strike missions while the Su-30MKI will do air superiority missions.
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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Mar 2017, 14:32

Agreed.

The SU-30MKI's and soon to be upgraded MKI's will retain the air superiority mission. Rafael is clearly a swing bird, with an emphasis on strike. I suppose they chose the Mig-29K as a jack of all trades for carrier duty? The one glaring weakness is a 5th gen bird. Reports are that the J-20 has entered service in limited numbers. Obviously, a very immature weapon system but if they're waiting on their version of the PAK-FA, going to be a long time.

One must wonder who the Chinese will sell the J-31 to once it's ready for export. Assuming they can't purchase the F-35, is there a snowball's chance in hell China will sell the J-31 to India?
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niafron

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Unread post16 Mar 2017, 17:51

@Icemaverick

0K... However, i read somewhere the Indian governement considered buying more SU 30 rather than Rafale.

But was maybe after MMRCA when the negociation with Dassault stalled up for a time?

@Mixelflick

About Indian Navy, they are going to buy a new plane, and the 2 main contenders seems to be the Rafale and the Super Hornet.

And i don't see India buying chinese planes, there's still ongoing arguments between them.
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Unread post19 Mar 2017, 21:16

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... 575985.pdf

Dorothée Fouchaux
February 4, 2014 9:00 am

Finally, the military intervention in Libya in 2011 also revealed the French air force’s lagging capacity to neutralize land-based air-defense systems. In this instance, most Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions were performed by American forces despite the fact that Libya’s air defenses were relatively weak.[41] France could potentially modify the AASM (a modular air-to-ground missile) to carry a passive electromagnetic homing system to give it the SEAD capacity it currently lacks.[42] However, until it can acquire such a system, the air force will not have the ability to take the lead in similar air operations.


41. See French National Assembly Committee on National Defense and Armed Forces, Compterendu n°18.
42. Lieutenant Yohan Droit,“Mission et capacités SEAD— Une perspective de l’armée de l’air”[SEAD Mission and Capabilities —A View of the Air Force], Centre d’études stratégiques aérospatiales, September 2012, http://www.cesa.air.defense.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf']www.cesa.air.defense.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Mission_ et_capacites_SEAD-_sept_2012.pdf.
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uclass

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Unread post19 Mar 2017, 21:19

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uclass

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Unread post19 Mar 2017, 21:26

niafron wrote:The swiss air force Report ( leaked a long time ago by a Swiss newspaper, nothing confidential anymore):

The Rafale did well because it had A2G weapons and a Recce pod. On air-air it was a mixed bag. Better EW, Detection and Acquisition but inferior Engagement, well down on Aircraft Performance and higher pilot workload. Very close on SA.

On the face of it the EW is good, but not too far from the Gripen C and nowhere near the maximum score you would expect if the various tales and rumours, as told on keypubs, were actually true.

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les_paul59

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Unread post19 Mar 2017, 23:37

The Rafale is a good multi-role fighter, the typhoon is an air-superiority platform that is in the process of integrating some very good air to ground weapons. the jas 39c is a nice cheap platform for small air forces.

I found it interesting that the typhoon had the best score on pilot workload. Looks like they have spent a fair amount of time on man-machine interface.

In reality the typhoon and rafale are very similar. The rafale has slightly better sensors and ew, the typhoon has better kinematics and lowered pilot workload.
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niafron

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 12:24

I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

So wether all these rumours about "active cancellation" are true or not, you should consider the version proposed to Switzerland maybe did not have full EW capabilites ( could also be true for the Typhoon sure).
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garrya

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 13:14

niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

I recalled that they did attack some tanks before main SEAD operation happened but AFAIK Lybia air defense is not all that impressive, and the main SEAD operation still done by F-16
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hornetfinn

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 13:56

garrya wrote:
niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

I recalled that they did attack some tanks before main SEAD operation happened but AFAIK Lybia air defense is not all that impressive, and the main SEAD operation still done by F-16


Libyan air defenses have been pretty much unchanged from what was left after Operation El Dorado Canyon in 1986. It probably was much worse as no new equipment was received during the following years and it was not a very coherent force due to civil war. It didn't perform that great in 1980s and was pretty irrelevant force in 2011. I don't think it was that good performance test for any weapon system.
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niafron

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 14:28

I wasn't saying it was a test... simply, it show how confident was the french air force cause the loss of one single plane would have been a media disaster.

And the french planes circled above Libya for a while.

US and UK airstrikes were conducted only after Tomahawk missiles rained heavily... :wink:
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uclass

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 14:32

niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

So wether all these rumours about "active cancellation" are true or not, you should consider the version proposed to Switzerland maybe did not have full EW capabilites ( could also be true for the Typhoon sure).

The Libyan equipment was very old, however one SA-8 did target a Rafale but was fortunately out of range, and likely operated by an imbecile.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

In their post-war assessment, the French point at this first strike to downplay their
reliance on U.S. assets for SEAD. This assessment is correct for this particular raid,
since no losses occurred. Libyan air defenses nonetheless identified the French raid
and engaged it with an SA-8 surface-to-air missile system, which fortunately was out
of range.12 It is, however, questionable that such a risky tactic would have worked for
the whole campaign, as the French were probably not ready to take significant risks of
aircraft losses.

12 See Notin, La vérité sur notre guerre en Libye, pp. 174–175.


Also interesting to note, they didn't just send Rafales, which indicates they were just broadly confident that the air defences weren't up to scratch rather than being confident in the Rafale. A total of 4 vehicles were hit before SEAD commenced. The fact they were vehicles probably indicates they may have been well away from where defences were heaviest, like near regime-held cities.

From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to
standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan
airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out
successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft:
eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds
(for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located
some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly
destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the
Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales. This was
a rather small number by military standards, but it stopped the advance of Qaddafi’s
leading forces at the outskirts of Benghazi and probably helped prevent a massacre in
the city. Had Benghazi fallen, the outcome of the war could have been quite different.
As such, this initial strike served a critical political and strategic purpose.
Last edited by uclass on 20 Mar 2017, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
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uclass

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 14:36

hornetfinn wrote:
Libyan air defenses have been pretty much unchanged from what was left after Operation El Dorado Canyon in 1986. It probably was much worse as no new equipment was received during the following years and it was not a very coherent force due to civil war. It didn't perform that great in 1980s and was pretty irrelevant force in 2011. I don't think it was that good performance test for any weapon system.

Lot of it got destroyed back then too. Seem to also remember an SA-5 misguided and hit a block of flats.
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