F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5950
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post20 Jun 2016, 18:38

wil59 wrote:3 generation aircraft do the job in Iraq or in Syria! have you not understood that the current war are asymmetric warfare and stealth aircraft is useless for this kind of warfare!


F-22s operating in syria has basically proven fifth generation aircraft, and everyone is getting the understanding there (except you apparently). They are also more than just stealth. F-22s were key players in the initial Syrian operations. I also notice the French used the Rafale in Syria... is it 3rd generation now?


All this is just marketing to impose a new norm is spent even more relevant that the nations that have the ability to build fighter aircraft lost this advantage and become dependent on countries with ilimité expenditure for R & D! This is what will come to Europe will become US dependent see what is happening with the United States, Italy, Belgium, Spain or will they bought f-35 when they could have bought européein was beneficial for the industry


Blaming the US for the lack of funding put into European defense during the 1990s and 2000s is laughable.



they will lose their ability to build fighter jets


I guess there is a huge difference in Italy building parts in an F-35 as opposed to building parts in a Typhoon. Whats the Difference? And how is an F-35 any different from the Typhoon? Typhoon was a program with multiple countries building parts, to create a fighter. F-35 is the same. When is the last time any of the countries you mention actually built their very own individual fighter? And what were the results?

next, how important is it to them that are able to? I would say very little. The F-35 exists because not a whole lot of countries even want to attempt a 21st century fighter. Don't know if you noticed but Europe really is not into defence spending. You can look and see for yourself.

and will be dependent usa; veiled please consider France as a scope statement has preferred to make a versatile aircraft and thus kept its independence as the usa have kept theirs!


Rafale is a joke, and France rejoined NATO in 2009 anyway. its not so much equipment that makes one "independent" its alliances and treaties first. God knows how many billions could have been saved if they had simply bought US Hornets and stayed in the Eurofighter program. Every nasty thing people have said with the F-35 could be multiplied by Ten for Rafale

oh and how many 5th generation fighters is independent France working on now?
Choose Crews
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post21 Jun 2016, 09:57

XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:3 generation aircraft do the job in Iraq or in Syria! have you not understood that the current war are asymmetric warfare and stealth aircraft is useless for this kind of warfare!


F-22s operating in syria has basically proven fifth generation aircraft, and everyone is getting the understanding there (except you apparently). They are also more than just stealth. F-22s were key players in the initial Syrian operations. I also notice the French used the Rafale in Syria... is it 3rd generation now? WIL59/ really? it is known as in report of missions which one can see on Internet, that are the Rafale which flew over Syria in first! before same as the boat custom draws with tomahawks, which proves well the quality of the protection system and jamming of the Rafale.


All this is just marketing to impose a new norm is spent even more relevant that the nations that have the ability to build fighter aircraft lost this advantage and become dependent on countries with ilimité expenditure for R & D! This is what will come to Europe will become US dependent see what is happening with the United States, Italy, Belgium, Spain or will they bought f-35 when they could have bought européein was beneficial for the industry


Blaming the US for the lack of funding put into European defense during the 1990s and 2000s is laughable. WIL59/ The problem is that England always countered the common proposals for a European defense will know why?! Moreover as I said the sums for European defense for each country is very low! We cannot not allotted sums enormous as the United States which has one doctrines of super military power and of preserved a power superior have all other nations some is the money spent for that! It is not the position of France therefore the Rafale is enough for the French need! it does not need as it is often spoken on the forum to have a very large autonomy France is 17 times smaller than the USA if you to look at the square kilometres has to cover with planes for protected are territory 200 planes is rather well!



they will lose their ability to build fighter jets


I guess there is a huge difference in Italy building parts in an F-35 as opposed to building parts in a Typhoon. Whats the Difference? And how is an F-35 any different from the Typhoon? Typhoon was a program with multiple countries building parts, to create a fighter. F-35 is the same. When is the last time any of the countries you mention actually built their very own individual fighter? And what were the results?

next, how important is it to them that are able to? I would say very little. The F-35 exists because not a whole lot of countries even want to attempt a 21st century fighter. Don't know if you noticed but Europe really is not into defence spending. You can look and see for yourself.

and will be dependent usa; veiled please consider France as a scope statement has preferred to make a versatile aircraft and thus kept its independence as the usa have kept theirs!


Rafale is a joke, and France rejoined NATO in 2009 anyway. its not so much equipment that makes one "independent" its alliances and treaties first. God knows how many billions could have been saved if they had simply bought US Hornets and stayed in the Eurofighter program. Every nasty thing people have said with the F-35 could be multiplied by Ten for Rafale

oh and how many 5th generation fighters is independent France working on now?
WIL59/ The Rafale is a joke you say?! it is multirole has the capacity of carried nuclear bomb, to make sead proved that it is capacity were very good Yes the RETEX of the Rafale some oneself the conflict in which it was committed were always very good. I think that most edifying is the case of Libya where the Rafale thanks to their capacities of SEAD (deception and jamming) passed the anti-aircraft defences Lybian (completely in service 19 March before strikings of masses supposed to neutralize them) and the primary goals treated on the ground. And that in spite of the warning of the director of the American information, James Clapper on the danger which represented the Libyan Anti-aircraft defence for the French planes. Proof that stealth is not the requirement of a combat aircraft.It has a radar AESA with capacity SAR.an armament with AASM It has acts of a weapon comparable with bomb JDAM American, in sohistiquée, say the experts. Point out you to it destroyed tank has 55 measures in kilometres of distance in lybie! Do you have an example has to give me which is comparable? The air superiority weapon of choice of the Rafale is the MICA (Missile Intercept, Combat and Self-defense). It is a medium-range missile to 112kg, which replaces two missiles at once: the Super 530D and Magic II. It can be run on rail up to 9g (wings) or pneumatic ejectors up to 4g (fuselage). It is multi-target and shoot-and-forget (fire and forget). His strong impulse propellant can be accelerated to the speed of the aircraft increased mach3,5 and its steerable thrusters allow it to transfer under 50g. It has a range of more than 80km. It emits relatively little smoke (hard to spot) and its propulsion is short. Guiding the missile is provided by two perfectly interchangeable heads without adjustments, and worth one and the other in close combat as BVR (Beyond Visual Range-beyond visual range, more than 20km):
homing EM (electromagnetic) (name: AD4A) able to spot a target several dozen kilometers, designed to be used in a context of severe measures against-he can choose the appropriate target even without the information of the aircraft gunner even in the case of a shot down, despite the mess soil.
homing IR (infrared): a very advanced technology, it has a cooling circuit of an autonomy of 10 hours. Its imaging sensor and calculator allow to distinguish an aircraft of a lure or a bright landscape (recognition engines sides, edges ...) and is therefore very difficult to lure.Rafale funny?!
Er which is the availability ratio for the planes of 5 generation? how much temp is necessary it to give the plane under good condition of flight after a mission? how much does plane of 5 cost 1:00 of flight for 1 generation? how much does the handing-over cost has level of its stealth after each flies?
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 859
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post21 Jun 2016, 22:18

wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!
or you saw 2 victory? in your imagination lol
http://defence.pk/threads/rafales-aeria ... in.181014/


Did you see 5 draw? In your imagination!
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post22 Jun 2016, 17:11

uclass wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
wil59 wrote: The Rafale is a joke you say?! it is multirole has the capacity of carried nuclear bomb, to make sead proved that it is capacity were very good Yes the RETEX of the Rafale some oneself the conflict in which it was committed were always very good. I think that most edifying is the case of Libya where the Rafale thanks to their capacities of SEAD (deception and jamming) passed the anti-aircraft defences Lybian (completely in service 19 March before strikings of masses supposed to neutralize them) and the primary goals treated on the ground.

Official report says an SA-8 targeted them but fortunately they were out of range. Libya hardly had a competent AD either. In 1986 they took out a hospital with an SA-5 accidentally.

The vast majority of SEAD was done by USN Hornets, F-16CJ and Italian Tornado ECRs wrt aircraft. With the rest done by USN and RN Tomahawks. France conducted one sortie prior to the cruise missile strike with Mirages and Rafales and hit 4 vehicles. No record of any French SEAD.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to
standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan
airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out
successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft:
eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds
(for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located
some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly
destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the
Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales.

In their post-war assessment, the French point at this first strike to downplay their
reliance on U.S. assets for SEAD. This assessment is correct for this particular raid,
since no losses occurred. Libyan air defenses nonetheless identified the French raid
and engaged it with an SA-8 surface-to-air missile system, which fortunately was out
of range.12 It is, however, questionable that such a risky tactic would have worked for
the whole campaign, as the French were probably not ready to take significant risks of
aircraft losses. Therefore, this opening move might denote a divergence of operational
habits. The French, like the British, are used to making do with less.

Despite France’s early accomplishment, the first days of operations relied heavily
on U.S. assets, especially ones that the French were unable to provide, including
SEAD aircraft and Tomahawk cruise missiles that conducted deep strikes against critical
infrastructure. (Of the 199 sea-launched cruise missiles fired in the first ten days,
192 were American and seven were British


And the range of a MICA is 50km not 80km. For reference, the ground-launched version manages 20km and a CAMM (ASRAAM-based) manages 25+km. This makes it a short-range AAM by modern standards.
The vast majority of SEAD was done by USN Hornets, F-16CJ and Italian Tornado ECRs wrt aircraft. With the rest done by USN and RN Tomahawks. France conducted one sortie prior to the cruise missile strike with Mirages and Rafales and hit 4 vehicles. No record of any French SEAD.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2011/05/l ... rated.html Remind you this Strike Level! In terms of air combat, its frontal sector optronics (OSF) allowed the Rafale visuelement identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, while the usual identification in air defense is between three and five kilometers. In electronic warfare, Gusts detected surface-to-air threats as American F-16 CJ, which is the main purpose, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the firing six air-to-ground munitions (A2SM) on 6 different goals (programmed) at a distance of 20 to 40 kilometers and then take three air-to-air missile Mica, all in a minute - reflecting the versatility of the plane! Rafale is clearly more efficient than the f-16 cj which is a specialized aircraft for the SEAD! So say the French are incapable of doing SEAD shows that you underestimated the potential French! which also have SIGINT / ELINT http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... x-emirats/
Offline

uclass

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 962
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 16:05

Unread post22 Jun 2016, 18:51

wil59 wrote:http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2011/05/l ... rated.html Remind you this Strike Level! In terms of air combat, its frontal sector optronics (OSF) allowed the Rafale visuelement identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, while the usual identification in air defense is between three and five kilometers. In electronic warfare, Gusts detected surface-to-air threats as American F-16 CJ, which is the main purpose, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the firing six air-to-ground munitions (A2SM) on 6 different goals (programmed) at a distance of 20 to 40 kilometers and then take three air-to-air missile Mica, all in a minute - reflecting the versatility of the plane! Rafale is clearly more efficient than the f-16 cj which is a specialized aircraft for the SEAD! So say the French are incapable of doing SEAD shows that you underestimated the potential French! which also have SIGINT / ELINT http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... x-emirats/

Well this is kind of the problem with French claims regarding the Rafale. For other claims and aircraft, I see articles in major military aircraft magazines, or official reports. For Rafale claims I see blog-spots.

OSF is an IRST system, again not new, several fighters have them- Flankers (Su-27/30/35), MiG-29s, EF2000s etc.

I'm yet to see evidence somewhere other than a blog-spot for most of these claims. I 'm afraid I'm going with this version:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

RAND Project AIR FORCE (PAF), a division of the RAND Corporation, is the U.S.
Air Force’s federally funded research and development center for studies and analyses.
PAF provides the Air Force with independent analyses of policy alternatives affecting
the development, employment, combat readiness, and support of current and future
air, space, and cyber forces. Research is conducted in four programs: Force Modernization
and Employment; Manpower, Personnel, and Training; Resource Management;
and Strategy and Doctrine. The research reported here was prepared under contract
TA7014-06-C-0001.
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1030
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post22 Jun 2016, 19:15

wil59 wrote: La France is to stealth, the problem is the cost! The Russian are ok, the Chinese do ok, saw how bright the people down is the misery! Rather they build airplanes for 5 generations that give food to the poor of their country do you think the people in difficulty as you think? In France have no stealth but people were a vital minimum for the accée free care for poor people, an unemployment allowance for those not working! 30 days paid leave per year and it is not dependent on seniority in the job! It was the best social system in the world that has a cost but it is a choice! When I see on TV through vivid stories how people who have no work in the USA / China / Russia it is very sad! But they have super Stealth ....


*sarcasm on* great way to deflect a short coming by changing the subject and trying to convey a sense of superiority... *sarcasm off*

Good for you that France has a good social system that rewards laziness. So now its no longer about having a good functional aircraft for the worse case SHTF conflict... its all about;

free health care and 30 days paid vacation!!!

So is that the reason why you depend of foreign nationals to be the most highly trained, veteran, and respected military force in your country *cough* French Foreign Legion *cough cough*

Yes the United States had a downturns in its economy and rate of employment. Though despite all this the United States can still out produce most if not all countries and still has one of the highest economies in the world. Before you get to it... blah blah blah China... wait until that economic bubble bursts, wont be a pretty picture.

Next time some whacked out Jihadi on a train starts attacking people and there aren't any Americans around... you can still claim that you have free health care for all and 30 days paid vacation...

Image

sorry but we're (the US) enjoying our absurd amounts of awesomeness.
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post22 Jun 2016, 23:10

charlielima223 wrote:
wil59 wrote: La France is to stealth, the problem is the cost! The Russian are ok, the Chinese do ok, saw how bright the people down is the misery! Rather they build airplanes for 5 generations that give food to the poor of their country do you think the people in difficulty as you think? In France have no stealth but people were a vital minimum for the accée free care for poor people, an unemployment allowance for those not working! 30 days paid leave per year and it is not dependent on seniority in the job! It was the best social system in the world that has a cost but it is a choice! When I see on TV through vivid stories how people who have no work in the USA / China / Russia it is very sad! But they have super Stealth ....


*sarcasm on* great way to deflect a short coming by changing the subject and trying to convey a sense of superiority... *sarcasm off*

Good for you that France has a good social system that rewards laziness. So now its no longer about having a good functional aircraft for the worse case SHTF conflict... its all about;

free health care and 30 days paid vacation!!!

So is that the reason why you depend of foreign nationals to be the most highly trained, veteran, and respected military force in your country *cough* French Foreign Legion *cough cough*

Yes the United States had a downturns in its economy and rate of employment. Though despite all this the United States can still out produce most if not all countries and still has one of the highest economies in the world. Before you get to it... blah blah blah China... wait until that economic bubble bursts, wont be a pretty picture.

Next time some whacked out Jihadi on a train starts attacking people and there aren't any Americans around... you can still claim that you have free health care for all and 30 days paid vacation...

Image

sorry but we're (the US) enjoying our absurd amounts of awesomeness.
I do not say that the French system on unemployment réconpense laziness! so is the dignity not to let that have no work on the lower side is called his fraternity! Ditto for médical.Vous care said that it is difficult found highly qualified worker you are mistaken there many highly qualified people in France and are sought and recruited by many countries! Go you informed of the next Silicon Valley much of the French work there!About étrangére Legion repprochez you what? They have a solid reputation! asked us Marines who trained with the Legionnaire will they think ?! Watched reporting in conflict in Iraq and other what the Legionnaire, they training the hardest of the world! I saw a story or have Legionnaire were in a Marine base us, some Legionnaires defeated the best Temp which was a record based on traverses the fighter! With luck can you find it on you tube. 60,000 French present in the bay - the third foreign community behind the Chinese and Indians. in SILICON VALLEY
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2793
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post23 Jun 2016, 13:22

I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where Bae Hawk trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)
Offline
User avatar

cosmicdwarf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 677
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2015, 21:20

Unread post23 Jun 2016, 14:24

Most modern jets are close enough in their WVR capabilities as far as maneuverability that I think it's kind of moot. They all just have different conditions where they have advantages.

It's the BVR capabilities that tend to make one platform dominant.
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1030
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post23 Jun 2016, 19:20

hornetfinn wrote:I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where <span class="skimwords-potential">Bae Hawk</span><span style="position: absolute;"></span><span style="position: absolute;"></span> trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)


cosmicdwarf wrote:Most modern jets are close enough in their WVR capabilities as far as maneuverability that I think it's kind of moot. They all just have different conditions where they have advantages.

It's the BVR capabilities that tend to make one platform dominant.


Too true.

I'm reading a book titled America's Secret Mig Squadron, The Red Eagles of CONSTANT PEG. The book opens up with 4 F-4s going against a single Mig-17. The F-4s were flying an old tactic of a 4 ship flight in a "flow wing" manner. In the end the Mig-17 trumps all the F-4s.
Did that mean that the Mig-17 was better?
The next day after a familiarization and debrief the F-4s went out again and gave that Mig-17 a run for its money and won. The author of the book who was the initial squadron leader of the Red Eagles would say that the problem with our fighter pilots at the time wasn't that they didn't know how to fly... they just didn't know how to fight. Essentially they were using old tactics.

The knowing the enemies capabilities and having the proper tactics makes all the difference... that and having a good pilot. Trying to claim who won a dogfight when and where is often chest thumping. Unless we've been in the cockpit of such aircraft and have taken part in numerous DACT in that aircraft, then we as the outside observers can only look at specs and measure the lengths of certain bodily objects.

Though in my own PERSONAL OPINION... the F-22 Raptor is superior... :)
Offline

vanshilar

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 402
  • Joined: 26 Aug 2015, 11:23

Unread post23 Jun 2016, 19:34

charlielima223 wrote:Trying to claim who won a dogfight when and where is often chest thumping. Unless we've been in the cockpit of such aircraft and have taken part in numerous DACT in that aircraft, then we as the outside observers can only look at specs and measure the lengths of certain bodily objects.


Um...we're still talking about planes...right? :P
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5950
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post29 Jun 2016, 16:20

hornetfinn wrote:I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where Bae Hawk trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)



Whats so hard to believe that a pilot will train and train perfectly everytime, regardless of skill or experience and just always win? Lol there is apparently no learning curve. You get your wings and are an instant ace even as a Cat 1 nugget. These guys are perfect in dog fights, yet we still seem to have attrition and crashes. Strange that. The Rafales that mid aired.... Not very perfect yet it happened. You would think guys who never lost a dogfight would not make such a basic mistake...

I run into boxers that have never been hit, and gymnists that have never fallen down all the time LOL

:mrgreen:
Choose Crews
Offline

armedupdate

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 479
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 21:11

Unread post11 Jul 2016, 05:01

There shouldn't be this long of an page to know the F-22 is the superior air superiority fighter and destroy a Rafale with ease.

It has one those most advanced AESAs upgraded with the F-35's technology, while Rafale just got AESA technology. The Rafale may have -, and maybe IRST technology in the future, but they cannot spot the F-22 before getting spotted. The F-22 is harder to lock on to with Active radar homing BVRAAMs reducing the range of the Rafale's Meteors dramatically. So it has to rely on radio command with datalinks from either by LRF(which is very close range) or triangulation(which is much slower than radar in measuring velocity of target). It can use MICA IR, but it will be outranged by the Raptor's AIM-120D, and is much more limited compared to the MICA EM(which is why most nations use ARH BVRAAMs and France only uses MICA IR on wingtips for dogfighting).

In a dogfight, the F-22 accelerates way better and better sustained turn, making much more easier to kill the Rafale and to outrun IIR missiles. Even in gun combat it's better as said by the French.
Offline

niafron

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 15 Mar 2017, 14:57

Unread post15 Mar 2017, 16:59

Hi Everyone...

First of all, I'm French.

Second, i apologize for my terrible English...

I must say, this topic is fascinating. Well, as we are supposed to be allies ( and in fact, France is the only major country in Europe who never was at war with the USA), the whole argument Rafale vs F22 look a bit unreal. Especially considering these planes does not have the same purpose...

Sure we're rivals for selling weapons on the international market. And time to time, we train together.

Here's my opinion about what happened in Al Dhafra ( and that's just MY opinion, or if you prefer, my best guess considering the few facts we have):

- 6 WVR encounters occured ( both sides agreed on that)
- At least 4 of them ended in a Draw ( According to French version, but never contested on the US Side).
- At least one ended in a F22 victory ( acknowledged by the french version )

So what about the sixth encounter?

A few time after the ATLC, an officer of the 1st US Fighter Wing stated the Raptors achieved 2 victories ( and sorry, but the famous french source who started this topic is an independant newspaper, nothing official, in fact, they probably simply quoted the US version...).

Then, it was the commanding officer of the french detachment in Al DHAFRA who expressed the french version of the exercise: 6 encounter, but one single US victory...

After that, many rumours... until the french governement released these pictures of a Rafale having a Raptor in Sight.

And, finally, earthquake on the internet, this famous vid coming from nowhere:



So what?

My opinion is the vid show the sixth encounter.

If you look carefully, and few people noticed that, at one moment, the speed of the Rafale drop Under 100 Knots. Did it break the R.O.E ?

Let's say yes.

Was it intentional in order for the french pilot to gain some advantage and secure a gun kill? If he cheated in a way, surely one could consider it changed the outcome of the encounter...

However, if not intentional, it sure deny any claim of victory to the Rafale, but it would be a bit strong to consider it a Raptor's victory...

Sure, Air combat training isn't like Football or some other sport... I must admitt, i have no idea of what is decided concerning the result when a pilot break the R.O.E.

Anyway, it could explain why we ended with a an encounter considered a Draw on the french side and a US victory by the Air force.

But i let you tell me what you think about it.

Just keep in mind i like Coca and eat 3 burgers a day, so don't be too rude with such a good french fellow...
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 686
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post15 Mar 2017, 18:07

Hello niafron,

Do you happen to know the outcome between Rafale vs Typhoon and Gripen? I heard that Rafale gave the Eurofigher Typhoon a beating WVR and that the Gripen did not fair any better. Or even Rafale vs Mig-29 and Su-27?


P.S. The French have ALWAYS made beautiful jets (Mirage III, 2000, F1 and now Rafale)!!!!!
PreviousNext

Return to General F-22A Raptor forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests