F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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gta4

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Unread post08 Dec 2015, 20:22

wil59 wrote:Helples, right it might be, but sorry, it is a hard maneuvering F-22 at the very least and it do hit a nerve doesn't it?
[​IMG]


This is NO "cross hair" but a proximity warning; proving that the Raptor is climbing in full A-B (can see the plumes against the background) with vortexes and all at high g, from the minimum combat level and Rafale is diving on it, it is a camera shot which have to be AXIAL, slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

btw, Lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon was there and his comments were reported accurately.

Now, go and dig an official, signed article from Flight Global saying this!

I know Craig Hoyle and correspond with him regularly, he IS the ONLY official defense editor at F-I and never posted such article, more to the point, the infamous John Lake can post article in their sister edition, using the same website but of course you wouldn't know, would you?


" so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill..."

No, if it is a missile fight, F-22 will use other tactics (such as high AOA pointing) to gain missile lock opportunity.

F-22 adopts different tactics in different rules of engagements. That's it,end of the line.
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gta4

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Unread post08 Dec 2015, 20:32

To wil59:

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have gained missile lock in all 6 scenarios. It is the rafale (not the F-22) who was saved by the rules of "gun fight". French pilots admitted that Rafale was "resisting the F-22" all the time, which means F-22 was in their rear hemisphere most of the time.

Rafale tried their best to outrun F-22's crosshair all the time, but still got their a$$ kicked.

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT F-22 GAINED AT LEAST A VICTORY ON RAFALE IN DOGFIGHT, AND STAYED AT RAFALE'S REAR HEMISPHERE FOR MOST OF THE TIME?

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT RAFALE GAINED NO VICTORY ON F-22?
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Unread post08 Dec 2015, 22:35

To wil59:

French pilots says that Rafale could get some kind of equality because THEY ARE SAVED FROM THE RULES OF GUNFIGHT.

But don't ignore that french pilots also admitted that F-22 has some serious MANEUVERABILITY ADVANTAGE, including nose pointing and energy retention.
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Unread post09 Dec 2015, 14:32

gta4 wrote:To wil59:

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have gained missile lock in all 6 scenarios. It is the rafale (not the F-22) who was saved by the rules of "gun fight". French pilots admitted that Rafale was "resisting the F-22" all the time, which means F-22 was in their rear hemisphere most of the time.

Rafale tried their best to outrun F-22's crosshair all the time, but still got their a$$ kicked.

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT F-22 GAINED AT LEAST A VICTORY ON RAFALE IN DOGFIGHT, AND STAYED AT RAFALE'S REAR HEMISPHERE FOR MOST OF THE TIME?

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT RAFALE GAINED NO VICTORY ON F-22?

resisted do not please say to be has the sorrow like being all the temp in the sight of the f-22; the pilot expressed made that the RAFALE resisted the best air hunter of superieurity as it is known as!not forgotten that the RAFALE is omnirole which is not as f-22 which is a combatant of the domination of the air! what want to say that the RAFALE made you croyer well not?
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Unread post09 Dec 2015, 15:05

Look, it is as simple as this, the F-22 displayed superiority. Was it flawless? No. I recall an interview where an F-22 pilot was asked which planes give him the hardest time in DACT and he responded "legacy hornet" and IIRC "with Rafale close behind" because the two of those planes can "rate" well and then unload to recover energy. Are they superior to the Raptor? No. Do they force a Raptor pilot to bring his A-game to DACT BFM? Absolutely. By contrast I have read two reports where Vipers where just so easy to beat because they CAN'T rate enough. Are Hornets and Rafales superior to the Viper? No. The Viper bests them in Energy but not rate so it can play to it's strengths and come out ahead. That game just doesn't work against the Raptor. There is no strict hierarchy based on BFM.
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Unread post10 Dec 2015, 00:31

LoL...sooooo many 'experts' around here....meanwhile........its nice to be able to watch flying ops during my breaks!

Good sized exercise going on at Langley right now....many pics at the links....

Royal, French air forces arrive for coalition exercise
http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123464569

Mid-air might: USAF, RAF, FrAF train during Trilateral Exercise
http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123465055

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Unread post10 Dec 2015, 08:34

hornetfinn wrote:
Flares would not really work much against imaging IRST systems, especially when used in conjunction of radar or laser (to find range). Problem is that flares drop from aircraft to the rear and only burn for a relatively short time. So they would work best if enemy is at six o'clock and be much less effective from other directions. Short burning time means the effect would be short lived. I also doubt that flares would confuse IRST systems that much even in passive ranging, but I also doubt the ability of passive ranging being used for missile engagements in most situations. FSO has laser rangefinder which could be used and might well be the best system for Rafale against F-22. However I seriously doubt Rafale ability to see and get close enough to F-22 to use that capability in real situation before meeting AMRAAMs.


Lets not dismiss the flare so easily, as just like aircraft and missiles, not all flares are alike. For example, the Israelis have been in the forfront of developing advanced IR countermeasures that can give you that extra second needed to evade an incoming Aim-9X perhaps.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68452
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Unread post10 Dec 2015, 10:48

zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
Flares would not really work much against imaging IRST systems, especially when used in conjunction of radar or laser (to find range). Problem is that flares drop from aircraft to the rear and only burn for a relatively short time. So they would work best if enemy is at six o'clock and be much less effective from other directions. Short burning time means the effect would be short lived. I also doubt that flares would confuse IRST systems that much even in passive ranging, but I also doubt the ability of passive ranging being used for missile engagements in most situations. FSO has laser rangefinder which could be used and might well be the best system for Rafale against F-22. However I seriously doubt Rafale ability to see and get close enough to F-22 to use that capability in real situation before meeting AMRAAMs.


Lets not dismiss the flare so easily, as just like aircraft and missiles, not all flares are alike. For example, the Israelis have been in the forfront of developing advanced IR countermeasures that can give you that extra second needed to evade an incoming Aim-9X perhaps.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68452


Flares work much better against missiles than IRST systems due to much closer proximity of sensor and flares. Of course extra second or two can easily make difference between hit and miss in that case. Against IRST system that doesn't matter much in most cases as the situation doesn't change that much during that time for it to matter that much. Besides, pretty much all sensors (I'm sure IRST systems do also) do extrapolation of tracks and short disturbances in tracking information (like losing target for couple of seconds) doesn't affect the tracking process much (errors would stay relatively small).
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Unread post10 Dec 2015, 23:05

So glad wil59 accepted that F-22 has some maneuverability advantage over rafale (high AOA pointing, energy retention...)

Even rafale pilots accept these facts, while some forum players don't. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



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Unread post08 Jun 2016, 08:46

Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.
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wil59

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Unread post10 Jun 2016, 17:06

avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.

What is your problem guys! the fact you still talked about this article says a lot about you! The fact is mere 5 draw and 1 win for the F-22! when you compare the price of each plane there is nothing decked lol
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Unread post10 Jun 2016, 22:10

wil59 wrote:the fact you still talked about this article says a lot about you!

1) So what does this tell about these members? Please enlighten me.

2) And will that also explain why you are still here?

:roll:
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Unread post11 Jun 2016, 00:32

The timing of the victory may be a message, too. Avoiding the kill until the last engagement, and doing so in a merciless fashion speaks volumes. Almost as if they were told not to pound them to a pulp...

And oh BTW - time limits on the engagements insured we wouldn't see either win by attrition. You can wear down an opponent in a prolonged engagement if you can ingress and egress at will. Short limits were there for a reason.

And oh BTW 2.0 - each side was given a chance to start with a tactical advantage. How devastating it must be to get one's a$$ whooped starting with the advantage. Whoops
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wil59

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Unread post12 Jun 2016, 08:47

avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.
Rafale vs f-4 phantom? you claim that the F-4 beat Rafale dogfight! So the F-4 must eat f-16 f-18 f-35! you should guarded F-4 and replaced build for others! you have the links in this statement? Rafale f1?
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wil59

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Unread post12 Jun 2016, 09:32

wil59 wrote:
avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.
Rafale vs f-4 phantom? you claim that the F-4 beat Rafale dogfight! So the F-4 must eat f-16 f-18 f-35! you should guarded F-4 and replaced build for others! you have the links in this statement? Rafale f1?
same is true if it does not prove anything! the mirage 2000-9 with french driver won against the f-22 Strike Level and then? we will not say that the m2000 is better than the F-22!
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