F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 510
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post01 Oct 2018, 14:58

If we acutely examine the video "Rafale Vs F-22"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWKT1in224


What do we notice here:

1. For most of this encounter, the ADA pilot is generally fighting SLOW and and at HIGH AOA for Rafale (remember the hard limit is 29.9 AOA), and the pilot keeps getting "release stick" on the HUD many times during the video.

2. At. :52 second mark, the ADA Rafale pilot calls a "FOX 2" at 26.2 AOA, 2.2G, 158KIAS.


3. At 2:05 mark, the Rafale is at 28.8 AOA, 2.3G, 153KIAS and again, is all over the F-22.





So it is safe to say, that this video is generally a "slow high AOA fight" for Rafale. The thing is, at times he is running into the same problem that the F-16 pilot faces at slow speeds, his nose cannot track the target anymore because he is up against his hard alpha limit. Although Rafale FCS does allow for slightly more Alpha/G than does F-16, but not by much.


Point is, if he goes up against a jet that has more nose authority at slow speeds (aka F-18/22/Sukhoi) than himself and fights wisely; he will be fighting an opponent that technically has more options than what he has.

Calling a Fox 2 at 26.3 AOA is really not much different than calling one at 31AOA (if he is in parameters) or even a gun kill. (Would either work in the real world, Who knows?) But Rafale/F-16/Eurofighter/Gripen cannot get to 31AOA because of FCS limits. Again, they have less options.




Like I said earlier, I like Rafale alot. Is it invincible -NO. I like F-22 alot, invincble -NO. This is just generally a pointless argument because we are just going by videos. Rafale fans can point and say, look we killed F-22! While Yanks can say, wait a minute here, F-18C killed Rafale!


The real info needed for comparison remains classified.
Last edited by f-16adf on 01 Oct 2018, 15:10, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

niafron

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 15 Mar 2017, 14:57

Unread post01 Oct 2018, 15:09

Well, at least, this discussion make me realized the difference in philosophy.

AOA seems far more important for US people, in France, it would be all about ITR and STR.

One more time, i agree, real info remains classified, and thusfar, the argument is pointless...

But very funy!!! :D
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 510
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post01 Oct 2018, 15:14

It's all about what the fight generates into. Some go slow, some not so. Every situation is different.
Offline

marsavian

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 564
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post01 Oct 2018, 22:54

By what mechanism then did the AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda system jam the F-22's APG-77 in testing as that does imply detection of the radar in the first place ?
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3642
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 04:22

Because the systems on the F-35 were based on the systems of the F-22. It is as easy for it to detect the signals of a Raptor as it is it's own.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 726
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 05:43

niafron wrote:
f-16adf wrote:All Rafale fans (Halloween, Cavok, Picard, Degrasse) have used a YT video (Rafale kills F-22) because they have no EM diagrams, or anything of actual intrinsic value to point out Rafale supposed superiority (and close coupled canard design advantage).

So it is rather hypocritical for them to use a video to buttress their argument; when conversely, a video exists (this time of F-18C killing Rafale twice) to point out that Rafale is not invincible. Rafale fans are silent about that. I have not heard any comments from them. Why is that?

Here is why I believe the RSAF F-15C claims. The Hornet's best turn rates and radii are mach .66 and under. At .76IMN I can tell you that an F-16 (any block) has better turn rates/radii than a Hornet. And the F-15 at that speed is not far behind. So it is entirely possible.


Fine, if you want to believe the opinions of your countrymen and your ADA pilots (whom I'm sure you have spoken to) about Rafale being the best thing since the invention of the wheel, that's great. But that viewpoint is no more provable than me going to an airshow and asking USAF Raptor pilots (which I have done) if the F-22 is better than Rafale. And their answer was it is-

So when it comes down to it, you cannot prove your point anymore than I can prove mine.


Fair point.

And for the vid, it give not much details, but will not argue with you about that, we got some report in France about the pilots of our navy being "disapointed" by their first test against F18 ( it was Super Horner however). What does mean "disapointed", i let you figure that out.

In fact, we really agree about one thing: it's first the pilot's skills, then the plane.

I guess you seen that broadcast of a french network showing the first participation of the ADLA with Rafale at the airflag?

The score was 6-2 for the Rafale against F16, a clear victory, but still, Viper's pilots managed to have the upper hand 2 times with an older plane.

So a F18 C locking on a Rafale is perfectly possible.
.


It's all about what french air force claims. Can it be proven with the other side, or by a third party?

However, after checking youtube and from the cockpit camera of rafale, we can clearly see that Rafale pilot constantly checking 6 and looking back (much more than twice) after merging with F16. It is cleary that French media did not pay much attention to video editing and leaked something they dont want us to see. The score 6_2 claimed by french airforce is highly suspicious
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2541
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 07:25

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Because the systems on the F-35 were based on the systems of the F-22. It is as easy for it to detect the signals of a Raptor as it is it's own.


Another thing is that F-35 RCS is also extremely small which means it's much easier to have effective EW against threat radar (AN/APG-77 in this case). It also makes it really difficult even for AN/APG-77 to detect and track it even without EW. Not so much with 4th gen fighters which have huge RCS in comparison.

And F-35 has extremely advanced EW system which is directly part of the most advanced sensor fusion engine in current fighter jets. This means it has huge amount of processing power available for signal processing and also has huge and extremely sensitive and powerful ESM/EW antenna in AN/APG-81. So it can gather much weaker signals than RWR/EW suites in 4th gen fighters and can direct more powerful jamming against threat radars.

Both of these things are not available in any other fighter besides F-22 and F-35. Advanced 4th gen fighters with next generation AESA radars and new sensor fusion architecture could theoretically have similar EW system as F-35. None of current 4th gen fighters have anything even close to it and none is really planned to. For example many current AESA radars are basically AESA antennas bolted on legacy MSA or PESA back-end. These will have serious limitations in ESM/EW capabilities compared to F-35 systems. Even totally new AESA radars in 4th gen avionics architecture are not going to have similar capabilities as they don't have the required level of integration. Not even Dassault Rafale which currently seems to have the most advanced 4th gen avionics system.
Offline

marsavian

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 564
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 11:54

The point still remains that with the latest RWR technology and enough computing power behind it an LPI AESA can be detected which is enough to at least be made aware and get a bearing. The Rafale and Gripen NG (which has GaN AESA antennas on its RWR)

The core technologies in Arexis are ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices, gallium nitride (GaN) solid state active electronically scanned array (AESA) jammer transmitters and interferometric direction finding systems.


Image

are the leading Western 4th gens on this score but all will eventually improve with updates. I don't think probably enough attention has been highlighted on this side of electronic detection and support when you have the much flashier side of RCS reduction to focus on.
Online
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7508
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 13:27

So getting a hit on the RWR once in a while... like a swimmer getting a brief glimpse of a shark's fin and realising that there's actually a pack of them in the vicinity. Smart move would be to get out of Dodge pronto.
Last edited by popcorn on 02 Oct 2018, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2541
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post02 Oct 2018, 13:29

Sure with the latest ESM/EW technology (they are not really just RWR systems anymore) and enough computing power any transmitter can be detected at some range. 5gen fighters have the serious advantage that their own RCS is very small making the threat radars need to use much more transmitted energy to detect and track them. Detecting and tracking 4th gen fighters requires far less power due to their much larger RCS. LPI AESA radars try to use as little power as possible especially to track targets. They also have so small sidelobes that it's generally the main lobe that could be detected at useful distances. This means that ESM system in 5th gen fighter will have far easier time to detect and track transmissions from 4th gen fighters than vice versa.

GaN technology helps much more with jammer transmitters (due to higher power handling ability) to and not so much with passive ESM/RWR systems (although admittedly some). For example AN/APG-81 is far larger (meaning much more sensitive) ESM/EW antenna than any ESM/EW/RWR antenna carried in 4th gen fighters which do not use their AESA for such duties. This makes F-35 much more capable at detecting enemy radars than any current or foreseeably upgraded 4th gen fighter.

Not to say it would be impossible for 4th gen fighters to detect and even track F-35/F-22 from radar emissions, but it's really tough for them to do without being detected and tracked themselves well beforehand.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2541
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post03 Oct 2018, 06:26

Still a very good document about detecting and jamming LPI radars:
http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a456960.pdf

It's not impossible to detect, track or jam even the best LPI AESA radars, but it's really, really difficult compared to traditional radar systems. I'd say that Rafale with RBE2 AESA radar is going to be rather difficult radar to detect, track and jam.
Offline

marsavian

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 564
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post03 Oct 2018, 13:36

Thanks for that interesting read. LPI stands for Low not Zero probability of intercept and that catalogue of techniques show how you can raise the probability. Obviously F-35/F-22 would still be heavily favored in a BVR duel but there does exist the possibility their radar could be spotted and allow opponents to orient accordingly and hope for an IRST track if the radar intercept is only fleeting and only allows for a bearing rather than track. I suspect with the Block 4 TR refresh and the increase of computing power the LPI algorithms will get even more devious lowering the probability of intercept for APG-81. Also DAS/EOTS are only going to get better reducing the AESA input into sensor fused tracks further lowering the probability again. I have no doubt that all round the F-35 is the best fighter on sale today and probably until PCA is born but it is not invincible when with a hell of a lot of luck and great tactics and flying required, its opponents just maybe able to do well against it occasionally or at least survive to live another day.
Offline

niafron

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 15 Mar 2017, 14:57

Unread post03 Oct 2018, 14:06

lrrpf52 wrote:
marsavian wrote:The point still remains that with the latest RWR technology and enough computing power behind it an LPI AESA can be detected which is enough to at least be made aware and get a bearing. The Rafale and Gripen NG (which has GaN AESA antennas on its RWR)

The core technologies in Arexis are ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices, gallium nitride (GaN) solid state active electronically scanned array (AESA) jammer transmitters and interferometric direction finding systems.


Image

are the leading Western 4th gens on this score but all will eventually improve with updates. I don't think probably enough attention has been highlighted on this side of electronic detection and support when you have the much flashier side of RCS reduction to focus on.

I think your understanding of GaN and its role in detection is getting confused. GaN is a material (developed in the US) to allow higher efficiency of electron flow as a semiconductor, which is great for antennae, in this case-the TRMs on the AESA antennae matrix. It allows a radar to push RF emissions better than previous semiconductor materials like GaAs, which is still a world-class material for radar TRMs. (The manufacturing infrastructure for GaN is outside the reach of most nations, and is even difficult for G8 partners.)

Gain sensitivity for return signal is run through a digital-filter and power amp, but we're still talking about RF active detection.

With passive systems for detecting RF, you need superb sensitivity, filters, and noise elimination, run through a very advanced processor to get bearing, bandwidth, and PRF (pulse repetition frequency).

The problem with detecting, making sense of, and locating advanced AESAs with redundant super-computing power is multi-fold:

* Incoherent PRF that is randomly generated and only understood by the AESA's CPU
* Tiny beam width digitally managed by the SC CPU
* Blistering frequency hopping speed across the usable bandwidth of the AESA and other RF sensors

That in itself presents a LPI problem that you really can't deal with, but there's more.

With linked F-22s or F-35s, they use sensor suite interleaving. Instead of a single ship fighter flying around running its AESA hot, you have 2-4 or more birds on a coordinated automatic hopset, generating tiny, incremental blips of RF across the freq hop net, being shared and coordinated with each other in a random sequence via MADL or IFDL in the F-22A.

You can add sensitivity to a 4th Gen ++ fighters' advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite, as well as processing power and more sensors like on the Rafale, and even link them together to get more resolution, but how do you overcome freq hopping and random waveform generation/PRF?

On top of that, how do you overcome interleaving?

Keep in mind that there is an ECM/ECCM back-and-forth countermeasures game with at least 6 generations of counters and counter-counters that predates the F-22 and F-35, including white noise, spoofing, PRF distortion for false vector and velocity, specific false target tracks, ghosts, doppler shift modulation games, and more.

With a triple (F-22) or quad (F-35) super computing CPU close-loop fused to all their RF sensors and the AESA, the EW implications are huge, to the extent that Growler crews are noticing that every brief now includes a lot of focus on EW that simply wasn't there before much in training in the fighter pilot community. The French are normally ahead of the power curve compared to most other nations when it comes to EW, but the F-22 and F-35 adaptive, super-computing EW suites and advanced linking with each other represent a true next generation EW challenge that even advanced 4th Gen systems are simply ill-equipped to counter. If you see something, it's to your detriment really in that type of environment, because who wanted you to see it and where are they?

And back to square one. In this hypothetical encounter, the F-22 net is watching the Rafale well before the Rafale has a chance to form some picture in the electronic spectrum. "He who sees first, wins." doesn't just apply to kinetic weapons, but the EW game as well.

Time to let go of the past and start asking, "What is France doing to answer the 5th Gen challenge?" If Rafale is a focus in that discussion, you've already failed.



Sorry, we french know nothing about electronic...we don't have advanced stuff, super computing thing... we just make good wine and love to our wives and mistresses all the day... Moreover, we play football with our feets!

In fact, i have a dream...

A mixed force of F22 and F35 venturing in the french airspace for a full scale exercise with some Rafale squads tasked to intercept them. Just to look how work real professionnals, would be a good teaching for us little frogs...

hornetfinn wrote:Still a very good document about detecting and jamming LPI radars:
http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a456960.pdf

It's not impossible to detect, track or jam even the best LPI AESA radars, but it's really, really difficult compared to traditional radar systems. I'd say that Rafale with RBE2 AESA radar is going to be rather difficult radar to detect, track and jam.


Well in fact, a Rafale pilot against an F22 would keep his Radar turned off as long as possible relying on external sources to have a rough idea of the target's position ( Low frequencies radars, OTH radars, perhaps satelites and so on... 3 years ago we even tested a new kind of passive airborn radar wich use the reflexion of TV waves in a given airspace to locate a stealth plane ).

The best option would be to come close enough to lock on the F22 with the OSF. The range of the OSF and the range of the RBE 2 AESA in search and track mode should be close.

You still can focus the beam of the RBE 2 to a given aerea in order to increase the range, but it mean sending alot of energy to the target wich certainly also increase the risk of intercept.

So better to shoot fast in this case...

Anyway, the F 22 would probably be Radar turned off too, with a teamate far behind and radar turned on.

And you'll probably have anothers patrols covering different angles to avoid a bad surprise.

The sky would be an electromagnetic hell, the both sides trying to jam each other ( and i guess even if they are not sure the enemy radars are emitting), one more time with planes at safe range or with ground based jamers.

So the 1 million dollars question: could a F22 ( the detecting plane in rear position, not the one who will effectively take the shot) defeat french jaming long enough, at let's say 60+Nm, to secure a kill, and fast enough to protect the forward plane?

And sure, there is alot of tricks to trap the enemy, like having a decoy plane strongly emmiting in order to bring forward the hostile planes, to surprise them and to attack them by flank or even better from the rear.

I read somewhere a quote from a french pilot ( can't remember where). He was asked about the range of detection and said:

"Well, sometime you got a two handed sword and sometime you got a dagger... but that's the same old story of war! In the second case, you just got to be more clever!"
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2541
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post04 Oct 2018, 11:21

niafron wrote:Well in fact, a Rafale pilot against an F22 would keep his Radar turned off as long as possible relying on external sources to have a rough idea of the target's position ( Low frequencies radars, OTH radars, perhaps satelites and so on... 3 years ago we even tested a new kind of passive airborn radar wich use the reflexion of TV waves in a given airspace to locate a stealth plane ).

The best option would be to come close enough to lock on the F22 with the OSF. The range of the OSF and the range of the RBE 2 AESA in search and track mode should be close.

You still can focus the beam of the RBE 2 to a given aerea in order to increase the range, but it mean sending alot of energy to the target wich certainly also increase the risk of intercept.

So better to shoot fast in this case...

Anyway, the F 22 would probably be Radar turned off too, with a teamate far behind and radar turned on.

And you'll probably have anothers patrols covering different angles to avoid a bad surprise.

The sky would be an electromagnetic hell, the both sides trying to jam each other ( and i guess even if they are not sure the enemy radars are emitting), one more time with planes at safe range or with ground based jamers.

So the 1 million dollars question: could a F22 ( the detecting plane in rear position, not the one who will effectively take the shot) defeat french jaming long enough, at let's say 60+Nm, to secure a kill, and fast enough to protect the forward plane?

And sure, there is alot of tricks to trap the enemy, like having a decoy plane strongly emmiting in order to bring forward the hostile planes, to surprise them and to attack them by flank or even better from the rear.

I read somewhere a quote from a french pilot ( can't remember where). He was asked about the range of detection and said:

"Well, sometime you got a two handed sword and sometime you got a dagger... but that's the same old story of war! In the second case, you just got to be more clever!"


Problem for Rafale in that scenario is that F-22/F-35 have far lower RCS than Rafale does. This means the detection/tracking range is significantly lower for Rafale than for F-22/F-35. It also means that Rafale EW system is either not nearly as effective as those in F-22/F-35 or it needs to be far more capable/powerful to compensate. Much lower RCS in F-22/F-35 also means that RF guided missiles are going to have much harder time engaging them successfully than they do against Rafale. Lower RCS also makes it far more difficult for all the other radars on the battlefield to detect and track them than against Rafale. This includes all those low frequency radars, OTH radars and all other radars. Stealth might affect them less, but will affect still.

Another thing is that Rafale currently and in the near future has only Link 16, which is pretty easily detected and tracked with modern ESM systems. F-22/F-35 have LPI datalinks (MADL and IFDL) which make detecting their transmissions much more difficult (by several orders of magnitude).

Instead of Rafale, the same would be true for EF Typhoon, Super Hornet, Gripen, F-16 or any other currently (or in the near future) operational fighter aircraft. Rafale is IMO possibly the best of them, but it's not going to fare well against F-22 or F-35 in air-to-air combat on regular basis.
Offline

niafron

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 15 Mar 2017, 14:57

Unread post04 Oct 2018, 14:11

hornetfinn wrote:
Problem for Rafale in that scenario is that F-22/F-35 have far lower RCS than Rafale does. This means the detection/tracking range is significantly lower for Rafale than for F-22/F-35. It also means that Rafale EW system is either not nearly as effective as those in F-22/F-35 or it needs to be far more capable/powerful to compensate. Much lower RCS in F-22/F-35 also means that RF guided missiles are going to have much harder time engaging them successfully than they do against Rafale. Lower RCS also makes it far more difficult for all the other radars on the battlefield to detect and track them than against Rafale. This includes all those low frequency radars, OTH radars and all other radars. Stealth might affect them less, but will affect still.

Another thing is that Rafale currently and in the near future has only Link 16, which is pretty easily detected and tracked with modern ESM systems. F-22/F-35 have LPI datalinks (MADL and IFDL) which make detecting their transmissions much more difficult (by several orders of magnitude).

Instead of Rafale, the same would be true for EF Typhoon, Super Hornet, Gripen, F-16 or any other currently (or in the near future) operational fighter aircraft. Rafale is IMO possibly the best of them, but it's not going to fare well against F-22 or F-35 in air-to-air combat on regular basis.


All of that is basically true.

Datalink especially is of great concern, we're expecting a Brand new one for the Rafale F4 ( L16 is still good, but too weak for the threats to come).

As i said, stealth design is a clear advantage ( the fact is you perfectly right, it also improve the capabilities of the EW suit, missile dodging... and so on).

But once more, the Rafale got its own assets, like the OSF ( nothing of that sort for the F22), the excellents MICA ( IR or EM) and now Meteor missiles... and SPECTRA could be full of surprises...

Anyway, always keep in mind it is not plane against plane, a grand duel between two pilots and their mounts, but system vs system.

When i read some post here stating the F22 or the F35 could quietly fly straight over an enemy airspace and shoot down everything in their path without even being at risk to be detected at any point... well...

Hopefully, US pilots are amongst the best in the world, they know their job, they know what their planes can and can't do, and i guess, they know better than wasting time listen LM propaganda.
PreviousNext

Return to General F-22A Raptor forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests