F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 00:52
by gta4
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 17:54
by wil59
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 18:11
by botsing
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:...
this is false

Do you have any sources or other information to back up your claim that this is false?

Just stating that something is false without explaining why seems so empty to me.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 15:35
by duplex
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 17:13
by wil59
duplex wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??
The participation of six combat aircrafts Rafale F3 in the recent Air Tactical Leadership Chases (ATLC) which was held in the United Arab Emirates from November 15th to December 9th was “a total success”. “We made full paperboard” ensures the lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, ordering of the squadron 1/7 Provence (Saint-Dizier).

The participation in this great international exercise was very important for France whereas the negotiations for the sale of 60 Rafale to WATER continue. Clearly, a good point was marked by the French near their colleagues émiriens. The more so as the availability of the Rafale was “exemplary”: they have pû to take part in all the exercises at a rate of two patrols of four planes per day, since the base of Al Dhafra

The “plate” joined together for this ATLP was impressive: F-16 C/D block 60 and Mirage 2000-9 (Emirates), F-16 MLU (Jordan), F-7 [a version modernized of Mig-21] (Pakistan), Typhoon [Eurofighter] (the United Kingdom) and F-16 CJ and F-22 (the United States). More of Awacs and the tankers. The exercise consists in simulating important raids, to forty planes, in “realistic missions representative of a conflict of high intensity”. The devices must cope with an air and ground-to-air oppositon.

The plan of the aerial combat, its optronic frontal sector (OSF) made it possible the Rafale to visually identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, whereas the usual identification in air defense is done between three and five kilometers. As regards electronic warfare, the Gusts detected ground-to-air threats that American F-16 CJ, of which it is the principal vocation, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the shooting of six air-to-ground ammunition (A2SM) on 6 objectives different (programmed) at a distance from 20 to 40 kilometers, then to fire three air-to-air missiles Mica, the whole in a minute - what testifies to the versatility of the plane.

During air-to-air confrontations, the Rafale “put sheets” at Typhoons of Royal Air Force, ensures the Grandclaudon lieutenant-colonel. In degraded version, to four against four, the Rafale carried out scores from 4 to 0 and 3 to 1.

The French combat aircraft also rubbed in F-22, the most modern hunter of USAF. During a meeting, they clashed with six recoveries, F-22 putting one blow at the goal.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... irats/.The history had made great noise. In November 2009, international exercise Air Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) organisé with the Arab Emirates linked, of the Rafale of the Squadron of Hunting 1/7 Provence étaient particulièrement emphasized face à of Eurofighter of Royal Air Force and F-22 Raptor américains.

In dog fight (combat aérien rapproché), the Rafale showed its qualités. Thus, in a combat 4 against 4, the pilots français réalisèrent scores of 4 à 0 and 3 à 1 during two confrontations against Typhoon of Royal Air Force.

But what been able surpendre their counterparts américains was the behavior of the Rafale vis-a-vis F-22 Raptor, this last having réussi only à to put that only one blow at the goal in 6 confrontations. It is at least what had été said à époque.

Grâce with the “Portal of Aviation “, here of the images taken at the time of this exercise and showing F-22 Raptor in the line of sight of a Rafale. It should be noted that Dassault Aviation had diffusé opportunément, à the occasion of Lima Air Show 2011 in Malaysia, of the photographs on which one could see the plane américain in fâcheuse posture face à the device français. It is of good tone to rétablir some badly vérités, put the done everything à by marketing and idées!


En savoir plus sur http://www.opex360.com/2013/06/18/un-f- ... 363fDvG.99 http://airforces.fr/2010/02/14/french-f ... formance/#

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 17:40
by wil59
duplex wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.

Apeendix: comments on this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGuWadoTgkE
In this dogfight video which lasts over 3 minutes, the F-22 only appeared in the front hemisphere of Rafale for a couple of seconds (at 2:49,3:05,4:12,4:42), so what happened for the rest of the time over 2 minutes? The french people don't want us to know. What if F-22 maintained an advantageous position for the rest of the time?

In addition, since this is a gunfight DACT, no gun solution is achieved in this video, if you watch the line representing the gun solution. The rafale failed to place F-22 at the end of the line (which is the predicted trajectory of bullets), so it did not get sufficient lead. That's why all french source claims that rafale got no victories.
this is false


Why should a French source lie ??
Detect

As shown before, F-22 will detect Rafale at 135-200 km. Rafale will detect F-22 at 11-22 km with radar or at 80-100 km with IRST. However, radar is an active sensor, which means that it can be detected at far greater distance than its own detection range. Even assuming that target is a flat plate and that entirety of the signal reaches it, radar will get back 1/16th of the signal – at best. RCS comparison shows automobile to have an RCS of 100 m2 (likely from the side; from the front, 25-50 m2 value can be expected), whereas Rafale has RCS of ~1 m2 when armed. Consequently, F-22s radar receives less than 1/400th of the signal that was sent out. Even when aperture size difference between RWR and radar is accounted for, Rafale will detect F-22s radar signal at two times the distance (>350 km), possibly as much as several times farther (note that radar horizon at 10.000 m is at distance of 825 km). Since both fighters have extensive ESM capabilities, radar is not likely to be used.

When it comes to IR signature, Rafale’s smaller size and lesser thrust will give it advantage over F-22. Difference will be somewhat reduced by the fact that F-22 can match Rafale’s supercruise capability without using full dry thrust. Both aircraft have provisions for reduced IR signature, particularly in terms of hiding exhaust plume, but F-22 at the present has no IRST (and is unlikely to get it, even though provision exists). OSF may detect F-22 at 80-100 km (or more) from the front and 120-160 km from the rear; F-22 will have to get within visual distance (6-9 km) or use radar to detect Rafale; in either case, Rafale has “first look, first shot” advantage. Further, Rafale can use OSF’s visual camera to identify F-22 at ~45-50 km, or IRST with ~40 km identification range. F-22 pilot will have to come within cca 400-800 meters from target to establish positive VID. NCTR works at longer ranges, but is very unreliable (30% identification reliability at best) and can be disabled by jamming or by target maneuvering. Because of this, 82% of the enemy aircraft engaged during Desert Storm had to be identified with help of AWACS, which will not be avaliable against a competent opponents as comlinks will be jammed, and AWACS aircraft will not survive for long anyway. Consequently, F-22 is an exclusively visual-range dogfighter and is as such at disadvantage against Rafale which has actually useful BVR capability.

Engage

Rafale has cruise speed of Mach 1,4 with 6 missiles, and top speed of Mach 2,0. F-22 has cruise speed of Mach 1,75 and top speed of Mach 2,0. In both cases top speed limit is caused by air intake design, leaving excess thrust for maneuvering even at maximum speed. Cruise speed advantage allows F-22 to more-or-less dictate terms of engagement, though its ability to do so is reduced by its endurance disadvantage (while F-22 can extend endurance by cruising at slower speed, its lower fuel fraction suggests inferior endurance. At Mach 1,5 and 40.000 ft, F-22 can cover 0,035 nautic miles per pound of fuel. 30% (5.400 lbs) of fuel allows it to cover 189 nm or 350 km, though it should be noted that this is based on actual fuel consumption; Rafale’s endurance in such scenario is likely significantly greater than what was calculated here, still leaving F-22 at endurance disadvantage). That being said, higher cruise speed and faster acceleration will allow F-22 to reach maximum speed more quickly than Rafale will be able to reach its own maximum speed. This is assuming that either fighter will actually have time to do so.

Rafale’s service ceilling of 59.055 ft is lower than F-22s 65.000 ft limit. This altitude advantage will give F-22 a measure of superiority in air-to-air combat, assuming that IFF problem is solved (for example, by the enemy using active radars). Combination of altitude and cruise speed / dash speed advantage will give F-22 advantage in effective missile range while reducing Rafale’s missile range. It will increase Rafale’s detection range v/s F-22, but will still enable F-22 first shot capability assuming that it can identify and target Rafale.

As shown before, Rafale will be able to attack the F-22 from distance of 70 km. F-22 may be able to attack Rafale from 20-158 km with radar, but doing so will allow Rafale to target it from 160-200 km with SPECTRA. Both aircraft can use their RWRs to cue other sensors (radar, and in Rafale’s case, IRST). F-22 may have disposable jammers, giving it advantage over Rafale, but there is no definite confirmation as far as I was able to determine. Rafale has major advantage in that it has IR BVRAAM, which gives it greater hit probability, as well as the ability to surprise the enemy when combined with IRST. Rafale can engage targets at their six o’clock through usage of onboard sensors, improving its dogfighting performance when compared to F-22.

Defeat the missile / disengage

Once warned of a missile launch, first reaction is to properly position the aircraft for evasion. At beyond visual range, it is oftentimes enough to turn the aircraft away from the missile. At shorter ranges (near-visual and visual range), pilot has to quickly position the missile to the aircraft’s 3 or 9 o’clock and then turn into the missile once close enough. Both of these require high instantaneous turn capability, as well as acceleration / climb to recover lost energy. Rafale has instantaneous turn rate of 36,4 deg/s and maximum climb rate of 305 m/s. F-22 has instantaneous turn rate of 35 deg/s, acceleration time from M 0,8 to M 1,2 of 55 s and maximum climb rate of 350 m/s. This means that Rafale will have minor advantage when evading missiles.

Rafale and F-22 both have 360* coverage with RWR and MAWS, and frontal-sector-only coverage with radar and, in Rafale’s case, IRST. Rafale’s RBE-2 has 120* field of regard, which is identical for F-22s AN/APG-77. RBE-2 AESA has 140* field of regard. Consequently, neither aircraft will be able to track another one with radar or IRST while engaging in defensive maneuvers. Either aircraft that uses radar allows itself to be tracked through opponent’s defensive systems.

There is also an issue of fuel reserves for maneuvering. Assuming that both aircraft have 40% of the fuel avaliable for maneuvers, Rafale will have enough fuel for 4,54 minutes of maximum afterburner while F-22 will have enough fuel for 3,23 minutes of maximum afterburner. However, maneuvering endurance is more important. Comparison will assume 360* corner-speed sustained turn followed by an equivalent of 10.000 m climb at maximum (initial) climb speed. Rafale will use 13,19 seconds for a turn and 32,79 seconds for climb, for a total of 45,98 seconds of maximum afterburner and 5,92 maneuvers. F-22 will use 12,86 seconds for turn and 28,57 seconds for climb, for a total of 41,43 seconds of maximum afterburner and 4,68 maneuvers. As it can be seen, Rafale has higher combat endurance despite somewhat lower energy performance. (Note here that this is based on sea-level figures; at 30.000 ft, actual thrust and fuel consumption will be closer to 1/3rd of those used, which will extend endurance.).

In terms of countermeasures, Rafale has onboard jammers, chaff and flares; SPECTRA is also capable of reducing aircraft’s RCS through active cancellation, though this is likely only an option against older-type radars. It does make it immune to home-on-jam mode of modern missiles. F-22 has chaff and flares; it could also theoretically carry disposable jammers but has no internal jammer installed. It can use its radar for jamming, but it only covers 120* forward cone and to do so it has to sacrifice frequency agility, making it vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles. That being said, F-22s low radar crossection makes usage of onboard jammer less beneficial than for most other aircraft, but also increases effectiveness of jamming when it is used.

Destroy

F-22 has AIM-120 with maximum engagement range of 180 km. This is significantly superior to 80 km range of MICA RF. MBDA Meteor with 315 km range will enter service in 2019, giving Rafale range advantage. However, while Rafale has MICA IR with 80 km range for IR BVRAAM, F-22 has no IR beyond visual range missile. When combined with lack of IRST, this makes F-22 incapable of surprising the opponent, especially if offboard sensors are unavaliable.

In terms of agility, AIM-120D and Meteor can both pull 40 g at Mach 4 and MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4. This means that maximum turn rate is 18,54 deg/s for AIM-120 and Meteor and 23,2 deg/s for MICA IR. Comparing this to respective aircraft turn rates (36,4 deg/s ITR for Rafale and 35 deg/s ITR for F-22), it can be seen that both aircraft have a good chance of evading any of the missiles listed (missile needs to at least match aircraft’s turn rate, and in some cases have twice as high turn rate, in order to hit).

AIM-120D has warhead weight of 23 kg, compared to 12 kg for MICA. Consequently, lack of agility is compensated for by larger warhead weight. Assuming perfectly cylindrical propagation pattern, AIM-120D has 1,4 times as large lethal radius as MICA while MICA has 25% better turn rate.

When it comes to WVR missiles, Rafale carries MICA while F-22 carries AIM-9X. AIM-9X has maximum engagement range of 26 km, while Rafale’s MICA IR has range of 80 km, giving Rafale significant range advantage when using IR missiles. MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4, giving it ITR of 23,2 deg/s while AIM-9X can pull 50 g at Mach 2,7, giving it ITR of 34,4 deg/s. It can be seen that MICA is far less dangerous to F-22 than AIM-9X is to Rafale in visual-range combat. This performance disadvantage is only somewhat compensated for by the fact that F-22 will typically carry missiles internally, requiring launch bay doors to open before launching the missile.

In terms of gun lethality, Rafale uses GIAT 30 revolver cannon while F-22 uses M61A2 rotary gun. GIAT-30 fires 275 g projectile with 17,5% HEI content (~48 g) at 1.025 m/s muzzle velocity. M61A2 fires 102 g projectile with 10,3% HEI content (~11 g) at 1.050 m/s muzzle velocity. Further, GIAT-30 projectiles have crossectional density of 38,9 g/cm2 compared to 32,47 g/cm2 for M61A2, leading to slower loss of speed. Combination of these factors gives GIAT 30 significantly higher per-projectile effectiveness. Further, F-22 has to open up gun trap doors to use the gun, which adds 0,5 second delay. Even if gun doors are opened beforehand, GIAT 30 will fire 19 projectiles in first 0,5 seconds, compared to 37 projectiles for M61A2. This gives total throw weight of 5,23 kg for GIAT 30, with 0,91 kg of HEI. M61A2 has total throw weight of 3,77 kg with 0,39 kg of HEI. As it can be seen, GIAT 30 is significantly more lethal than M61A2.

Ground survivability

Ground survivability includes possibility of camouflage and ability to operate from road bases. Latter includes STOL capability, wingspan limits, fuel consumption and ease of maintenance considerations. Wingspan should not be greater than 8,74 meters.

Rafale can take off in 590 meters (rolling takeoff) and land in 490 meters. Wingspan is 10,8 meters. Fuel consumption is 1.330 (?) kg/h cruise, 7.808 kg/h at maximum dry thrust and 25.126 kg/h afterburning.

F-22 can take off in 480 meters and land in 200 meters. Wingspan is 13,56 meters. Fuel consumption is 0,07 nautical miles per pound of fuel at Mach 0,8 and 30.000 ft (standard cruise profile), which translates into 5.890 lbs or 2.672 kg/h fuel consumption during cruise. Fuel consumption at maximum dry thrust is 19.936 kg/h and at afterburner 60.894 kg/h.

As it can be seen, there is significant difference in aircraft on-ground survivability in Rafale’s favor. Rafale also requires far smaller maintenance support and far less fuel for operations, leading to reduced logistical footprint.

Conclusion

While both aircraft have (oftentimes significant) advantages over each other in air-to-air combat, deciding factor will most likely be pilot’s skill. Overall, Rafale can be considered slightly superior to the F-22 even in “sterile” comparison. When it comes to things that matter the most in air war – pilot skill, field supportability, basing flexibility and on-ground survivability – Rafale is significantly superior to the F-22. In the air, Rafale will be unable to regularly surprise the F-22 due to its lack of cruise performance, while F-22 wil be unable to surprise Rafale due to its lack of IRST. However, F-22 will have significant kinematic advantage due to higher cruise speed and service ceilling. In dogfight, Rafale will have superior transient performance while F-22 will be superior at energy management.

Further reading

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -analysis/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -analysis/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -aircraft/

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... -fighters/

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:01
by gta4
wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:05
by gta4
At least in the eyes of french pilots, the raptor has two big advantages in maneuverability: High-alpha pointing, and energy retention.
5.jpg

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:09
by basher54321
wil59 wrote:Further reading




Picard578!! :doh:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:19
by gta4
And wil59, please stop thinking putting an video showing F-22 in the line of Rafale's sight could prove that Rafale won at least once. As I have mentioned before:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:31
by wil59
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:55
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Haha, but even in the 5 "no results=draw" dogfights, the Rafale was still "resisting" all the time (A&C April 2010), which means F-22 still had an edge.

"Draw" is superficial. If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have achieved positive nose pointing via extreme AOA way earlier than the Rafale.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2015, 19:57
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Rafale pilots think there were no BVR engagements because he did not know F-22 was shooting them in BVR. That's the reason.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 11:55
by charlielima223


Seriously? :wtf:

If you want to take his massive amounts of bovine fecal matter as fact... perhaps you should read his other pieces...

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/201 ... omparison/

It is :( that anyone can type up some long winded piece of garbage and people on the interwebs will take it as fact and shun any ACTUAL/OFFICIAL or HISTORICAL evidence put forth that not only contradicts but all out smashes said garbage...

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 12:30
by wil59
gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:wil59, all your source confirms that rafale was beaten by F22 once in WVR, and the other times were draw. Still Rafale has no victories. You want make us laugh? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

"Appearing in the line of sight" does not mean defeat, because this is a gun fight. If "Appearing in the line of sight" means defeat, F-22 should be rewarded 6 victories, instead of one, because in Air&Cosmos April 2010 confirms that Rafale was "resisting" F-22 all the time. Apparently, it's the one who is in the line of sight should "resist". :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

combat dogfight: 5 no one and 1 victory for the f-22, combat bvr are false rumour of journalist! a pilot rafale said that Na ever existed only dogfight.


Rafale pilots think there were no BVR engagements because he did not know F-22 was shooting them in BVR. That's the reason.
custom Air Force declared that only dogfight have stays carried out, not of combat bvr the rules were fixed; all that is refuse of journalists anglo/Saxon who do not want to recognize that the rafale so good stays and one invented this rumour of combat bvr to make believe the f-22 is better.if you remained on this rumour then ok give an irrefutable proof

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 12:51
by mixelflick
Really?

You think France wouldn't trade in their Rafale's for F-22's, if given that chance? :doh:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 16:29
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:Really?

You think France wouldn't trade in their Rafale's for F-22's, if given that chance? :doh:

yes hour flight and maintenance are Lowest deal and it is versatile! he never disappointed

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 16:34
by eloise
wil59 wrote:Detect

As shown before, F-22 will detect Rafale at 135-200 km. Rafale will detect F-22 at 11-22 km with radar or at 80-100 km with IRST

Detection range of IRST affected alot by weather , clouds ( they dont work in bad weather ) and target aspect ( Ex : OLS-35 can detect enemy's aircraft from 90 km aways tail aspect but only from 30 km away head on aspect )
Another problem of IRST is that you will have to rely on LRF for targeting information ( velocity , range to target ) , LRF are often limited to 20-30 km
IR , EO sensor can also be damaged by enemy's LRF

LRF.jpg



wil59 wrote:. However, radar is an active sensor, which means that it can be detected at far greater distance than its own detection range. Even assuming that target is a flat plate and that entirety of the signal reaches it, radar will get back 1/16th of the signal – at best. RCS comparison shows automobile to have an RCS of 100 m2 (likely from the side; from the front, 25-50 m2 value can be expected), whereas Rafale has RCS of ~1 m2 when armed. Consequently, F-22s radar receives less than 1/400th of the signal that was sent out. Even when aperture size difference between RWR and radar is accounted for, Rafale will detect F-22s radar signal at two times the distance (>350 km), possibly as much as several times farther (note that radar horizon at 10.000 m is at distance of 825 km). Since both fighters have extensive ESM capabilities, radar is not likely to be used.

that is overly simplified
a common assumption is that aircraft carry RWR should be able to detect Radar twice the range the radar can detect them because RWR only have to listen to signal that travel one way, thus giving them 80 dB advantage compared to radar that have to detect reflected signal that travelling 2 ways
However , RWR and Radar doesnt have equal gain
1. RWR antenna typically has a gain of about 0 dB due to wide angular coverage. Fighter AESA radar has a gain of roughly 40 dB. This means instant 40 dB advantage to the radar.

2. Radar can operate at much narrower bandwidth as it knows the frequencies it uses and RWR does not and has to operate at much wider bandwidth. RWR receivers have a sensitivity in the region of -40 to -60 dB while radar receivers have a sensitivity is roughly about -100 dB with digital receivers achieving even better sensitivity like -120 dB.

This can give additional 50 to 80 dB advantage to radar depending on exact design of the systems involved. As AESA has a very wide total bandwidth, RWR must cover that very wide bandwidth leading to much less sensitivity. As the radar signal has a quite narrow bandwidth and radar can process only very narrow bandwidth giving large advantage in sensitivity. For AESA the advantage can be for example in the 60 to 80 dB range.

3. Radar can code or modulate the signal so that it achieves significant processing gain over RWR. Either phase or frequency modulation/coding can be used. As radar knows the coding, it can filter out the signal from noise using matched filters. The RWR can’t know the coding and this gives the radar another big advantage in total gain. This is called Processing gain and it can be tens of decibels. The more complex the coding the larger the processing gain of radar is. Modern AESA radar using Digital Beamforming can use very complex coding schemes and basically only processing power and software is the limit here. A simple calculation about processing gain is dividing the spreading bandwidth (bandwidth where the signal is spread) with actual signal bandwidth.

4. When the radar main beam is not directly pointing towards the RWR, then it will only be seen through sidelobes. Given that sidelobe level can be lower than -50 dB in AESA radars (about -20 to -30 dB in fighter MSA/PESA radars), this gives the radar a healthy advantage against RWR/ESM systems which it’s not painting. This means RWR will only see very short flashes of main beam and makes it more difficult for the RWR to work effectively.

Calculated together, radar can suddenly have well over 100 dB advantage over RWR system through mainlobe and over 150 dB advantage otherwise. There are ways for RWR/ESM systems to get some of that back and of course the race is never ending. RWR/ESM system can use more directional antenna, more sensitive receivers and higher processing power

there many case where radar detection range can surpassed RWR detection range
Image

wil59 wrote: OSF may detect F-22 at 80-100 km (or more) from the front and 120-160 km from the rear;

That range is too overestimate unless you talking about an F-22 moving at mach 2.5 ,60K ft
To be honest ,i dont think the OFS on Rafale is that good ,given the fact that new Rafale version abbadon it and decided to use IR sensor on Mica instead

wil59 wrote:
As shown before, Rafale will be able to attack the F-22 from distance of 70 km. F-22 may be able to attack Rafale from 20-158 km with radar, but doing so will allow Rafale to target it from 160-200 km with SPECTRA. Both aircraft can use their RWRs to cue other sensors (radar, and in Rafale’s case, IRST).


It very different between able to detect something and actually able to track , targeting it
You can use your ESM/RWR to geolocate a ground emitter but again moving airborne emitter then it a completely different story
Here is how ESM, RWR geolocate a ground threat for missiles targeting
Image
Image
however you cant really use most of them to geolocate an airborne AESA emitter
1- triangulation method required target to be stationary , and take very long time
2- Azimuth / Elevation method will not work because you dont know enemy fighter altitude ( for a ground target you know the altitude is 0 ) thus cant use the Sine and Cosine function to work out the distance to target
3 - Time different arrival method required at least 3 aircraft stay at significant distance from the other ,but doesnt work well again AESA radar due to it very small side lobe , and thin beam, it also required many aircraft working together
4- determine distance by signal strength : required to threat radar characteristic to be known so it doesnt work again modern AESA radar because they have random frequency ,random scanning pattern , random PRF thus they are very hard to classified , and they can also manage transmitting power at short range to reduce probably of detection






there are 2 less common additional methods to determine distance by RWR included :
5- phase rate change
6- RF doppler processing
in theory they can be used again enemy's aircraft but they required cooperate target ,thus not very practical in real life
the detail are discussed in the pdf file bellow
http://subs.emis.de/LNI/Proceedings/Pro ... 54-222.pdf
http://users.isy.liu.se/en/rt/fredrik/r ... gsonly.pdf
Image
As you can see from the paper , the passive ranging method have many requirements such as
1) enemy's fighter fly at constant speed the whole time
2) enemy's fighter doesn't change heading the whole time ( the method measures range by calculate the changing of bearing between enemy fighter and ELINT aircraft when ELINT aircraft fly side to side " zic zack pattern" , thus it wouldn't be possible to apply the method if enemy fighter change heading and point their nose to ELINT aircraft direction all the time)
3)enemy's fighter will constantly emitting for the whole time needed for ELINT aircraft to measure range :
4) ELINT aircraft have to perform specific maneuver for a period of times to measure range
5) Accuracy is terrible , 20-40% error in range is very significant, at 100 km distance that is 20 - 40 km error, at 50 km distance that still 10-20 km error, that is even worse than long wave VHF radar thus not very useful for long range BVR engagement again enemy's fighter

How to counter RWR passive ranging discussed above :
let call the aircraft carry RWR sensor : ELINT aircraft
Method 1:
Image
To collect data for range measurement the ELINT aircraft must fly zigzag side to side to measure change in bearing , thus showing it's side aspect RCS to enemy's radar. And the S maneuver will only work if the enemy fighter fly straight and doesn't change their heading, fly at constant speed.
remember that side aspect RCS of any aircraft is very high (often in the range 20-30 dBsm or 100-1000 m2) , so the ELINT aircraft if wasn't detected by enemy radar earlier will be detected the moment it perform the S shape maneuver. Since most aircraft radar nowadays have no trouble tracking airborne target with RCS =100-1000 m2 from 300-400 km
So after detecting the ELINT aircraft, all enemy pilot have to do is changing their heading according to the heading of ELINT aircraft ( if the ELINT aircraft turn left, you turn left, if the ELINT aircraft turn right, you turn right, accelerate or decelerate to make your speed not constant)
that action will neutralise ELINT aircraft passive ranging ability

Method 2 :
Image
alot more simple, since the ELINT aircraft take at least 15 seconds of constant receiving enemy's radar signal to measure range with error about 25-40%, if enemy's pilot turn their radar on and off constantly, the ELINT aircraft wont be able to measure range in that case ( even easier in case of AESA radar since they used very thin beam ,the beam will only paint the target for very short period of time then look aways )

And the biggest drawback of relying on RWR is that you will only detect the target that transmitting ,what if there a flight of F-22 with one of them transmitting and transfer the information through data link to the others ?


wil59 wrote:Rafale’s RBE-2 has 120* field of regard, which is identical for F-22s AN/APG-77. RBE-2 AESA has 140* field of regard.

Rafale have a tiny radar with around 800-900 T/R modules while F-22 radar have 2000 T/R modules , even F-35 have 1675 T/R modules

wil59 wrote:In terms of countermeasures, Rafale has onboard jammers, chaff and flares; SPECTRA is also capable of reducing aircraft’s RCS through active cancellation, though this is likely only an option against older-type radars.

I dont think active cancellation even work again old radar ,and i dont think SPECTRA use active cancellation either since Rafale dont have transmitter all over it's skin
.


wil59 wrote:F-22 has AIM-120 with maximum engagement range of 180 km. This is significantly superior to 80 km range of MICA RF. MBDA Meteor with 315 km range will enter service in 2019, giving Rafale range advantage.

Overly optimistic range ,the only things you can hope to shot down at that distance is may be AWACs
wil59 wrote:In terms of agility, AIM-120D and Meteor can both pull 40 g at Mach 4 and MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4. This means that maximum turn rate is 18,54 deg/s for AIM-120 and Meteor and 23,2 deg/s for MICA IR. Comparing this to respective aircraft turn rates (36,4 deg/s ITR for Rafale and 35 deg/s ITR for F-22), it can be seen that both aircraft have a good chance of evading any of the missiles listed (missile needs to at least match aircraft’s turn rate, and in some cases have twice as high turn rate, in order to hit).


missiles doesnt need to match aircraft turn rate to hit , they are intercept not trying to follow aircraft path
also what you mentioned is ITR, which mean aircraft cannot sustain that turn rate for long and also lose alot of speed and altitude after perform it ,let say you perform very hard turn to dodge first missiles what will happened when the second missiles come ?


wil59 wrote:In terms of gun lethality, Rafale uses GIAT 30 revolver cannon while F-22 uses M61A2 rotary gun. GIAT-30 fires 275 g projectile with 17,5% HEI content (~48 g) at 1.025 m/s muzzle velocity. M61A2 fires 102 g projectile with 10,3% HEI content (~11 g) at 1.050 m/s muzzle velocity. Further, GIAT-30 projectiles have crossectional density of 38,9 g/cm2 compared to 32,47 g/cm2 for M61A2, leading to slower loss of speed. Combination of these factors gives GIAT 30 significantly higher per-projectile effectiveness. Further, F-22 has to open up gun trap doors to use the gun, which adds 0,5 second delay. Even if gun doors are opened beforehand, GIAT 30 will fire 19 projectiles in first 0,5 seconds, compared to 37 projectiles for M61A2. This gives total throw weight of 5,23 kg for GIAT 30, with 0,91 kg of HEI. M61A2 has total throw weight of 3,77 kg with 0,39 kg of HEI. As it can be seen, GIAT 30 is significantly more lethal than M61A2.



since neither Rafale and F-22 are armored like WW II aircraft , the throw weight doesnt matter that much anymore

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 16:42
by gta4
Am I the only one who noticed this sentence?
(translated from french)
"F-22 did not need to turn on its radar. it used the electromagnetic emission of the french fighter to locate it precisely, and shoot it down from a safe distance" :D :D :D

Poor rafale!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 16:50
by eloise
here another paper regarding passive geolocation
http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/TD/td3 ... Grabbe.pdf

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 16:53
by eloise
gta4 wrote:Am I the only one who noticed this sentence?
(translated from french)
"F-22 did not need to turn on its radar. it used the electromagnetic emission to locate the french fighter precisely, at shoot it down from a safe distance" :D :D :D

Poor rafale!

it still need radar for range and velocity information
Journal of Electronic Defense; Bill Sweetman

The F-22 represents a radical departure from the traditional approach to EW. Passive systems, once considered to be defensive in nature, are now critical to detecting, tracking and even attacking the target.

High-priority emitters -- such as fighter aircraft at close range -- can be tracked in real time by the ALR-94. In this mode, called narrowband interleaved search and track (NBILST), the radar is used only to provide precise range and velocity data to set up a missile attack. If a hostile aircraft is injudicious in its use of radar, the ALR-94 may provide nearly all the information necessary to launch an AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile (AAM)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 17:21
by zero-one
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.


I tried to get a direct translation of everything on the page, but after using Google translator on the
F-22 segment, I got this.

"if the french aviaterus have largely spread on toleas put their Rafale British Typhoon at the last confrontation between the delta Dassault and F -22A Americans present american NONT not even deign to turn on their radars remaining invisiles electromagnetic emission of french fighter thus securing the F -22A were also WOUND with combat burst ensuring closer chanqe hay has a "gun kill" without much difficulty ."

some kind of coded language as you cans see,

Can any of our French speaking friends , translate everything on it please? :mrgreen:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 20:28
by thenonflyingdutchman
mixelflick wrote:
You think France wouldn't trade in their Rafale's for F-22's, if given that chance? :doh:


I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

I'll agree that F-22 is superior in air combat to Rafale, as it is also superior to any other plane out there.

If France trades all it's Rafales for Raptors, what does it gain? And more importantly, what does it lose?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2015, 20:39
by gta4
zero-one wrote:
gta4 wrote:
Rafale vs F-22.JPG

According to french source, F-22 dominated every time, and "gun killed" the rafale at least twice.
From all french source we could get (including the french "air & cosmos" magzine, and its supp. "the combat of rafale"), all french pilots interviewed admitted that rafale did not score any voctory on F-22. The only controversy lies on whether F-22 won all engagements, or some engagements were draw.


I tried to get a direct translation of everything on the page, but after using Google translator on the
F-22 segment, I got this.

"if the french aviaterus have largely spread on toleas put their Rafale British Typhoon at the last confrontation between the delta Dassault and F -22A Americans present american NONT not even deign to turn on their radars remaining invisiles electromagnetic emission of french fighter thus securing the F -22A were also WOUND with combat burst ensuring closer chanqe hay has a "gun kill" without much difficulty ."

some kind of coded language as you cans see,

Can any of our French speaking friends , translate everything on it please? :mrgreen:


Did you use google translate?

The exact translation of the last phrase is:

"For at least two times, F-22 entangled Rafale at close range, ensuring each time a "gun kill" without much difficulties."

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 00:08
by armedupdate
I wonder where Picard578 gets these magical numbers from. He claims the OSF can detect the F-22 at 80-110 km....when official sources say the OSF has less range than the PIRATE which ID/detect target frontally at around 50 km. Also, he claims RWR from the SPECTRA can detect the F-22's signals from 300 km....yeah. With no evidence.

Also isn't all IR vulnerable to phosphorous smoke? If the F-22 is using red phosphorus flares it can blind the IRST when providing midcourse updates for the MICA/Meteor. The Meteor's seeker is radar only so it I doubt it will home on to the F-22 effectively due to jamming and stealth. Then the F-22 shoots an AIM-120 AMRAAM. The more powerful radar and midcourse updates evade the SPECTRA, killing the Rafale.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 00:43
by mixelflick
thenonflyingdutchman wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
You think France wouldn't trade in their Rafale's for F-22's, if given that chance? :doh:


I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

I'll agree that F-22 is superior in air combat to Rafale, as it is also superior to any other plane out there.

If France trades all it's Rafales for Raptors, what does it gain? And more importantly, what does it lose?


What does it lose?

The ability to fly off a carrier, that's it.

In every other respect the fear/intimidation factor, the ability to hold any target at risk, anywhere anytime is much greater IMO. 2 1000lb JDAM's and 8 Small Diameter Bombs is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when it can wax any aircraft sent up to intercept it. Try sending Rafale's into Iran for example. They've wisely invested not in their air force, but in SAM's, radars and other weapons systems that are going to make any 4th gen think twice about entering their air space. The ability to deal with any air defense system, in any country harboring ISIL.

They don't have any of that today with Rafale..

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 00:53
by armedupdate
What is there to loose?

The equipment that is designed to maintain the Rafale, and millions of dollars to get new infrastructure to support the expensive F-22.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 02:19
by cosmicdwarf
Yeah the Rafale was pretty much made to support France's aviation industry. It's not a bad plane by any means, but you can't ignore that was the reason for it.

Well, that and the falling out with the rest of the Eurofighter countries.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 07:35
by zero-one
thenonflyingdutchman wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
You think France wouldn't trade in their Rafale's for F-22's, if given that chance? :doh:


I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

I'll agree that F-22 is superior in air combat to Rafale, as it is also superior to any other plane out there.

If France trades all it's Rafales for Raptors, what does it gain? And more importantly, what does it lose?


Trading the Rafale's for F-22s won't be a good move for France, the F-22 clearly has the advantage in air to air, but I think the Rafale is still a better bomber.

With its own optical imaging sensors the Rafale is more tailored for missions such as CAS or SEAD.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 08:00
by armedupdate
^CAS yes. SEAD is definitely better with the Raptor with its stealth and ALR-94. Also the F-22 can use its MAW as an 360 IRST like the DAS.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 09:57
by wil59
1. The dog-fight is a 'random' exercise in: "The F22 did not show superior the the Rafale" ... could also be said: "The Rafale is at the same level than the Raptor in dogfight." It is my professional opinion.
capitaine-romain. I remember my first years in the Air Force. I was a student pilot. My classmates and I had spent a good time watching the picture presented by the newspaper "Air and Cuckoos''as that of a Mirage IV: it was a Mirage 2000N.
Today, to be honest, I do not read the newspaper.
ATLC : L'interview du commandant de l'escadron de chasse 01.007 Provence !!! - capitaine-romain http://indiandefence.com/threads/eurofi ... 8/page-362 look interview

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 10:00
by armedupdate
Also what happens if the enemy uses AESA radar as a RWR? Wouldn't the gain be exactly the same meaning the exact same intercept range as the same detection range?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 10:12
by hornetfinn
eloise wrote:
wil59 wrote:In terms of agility, AIM-120D and Meteor can both pull 40 g at Mach 4 and MICA IR can pull 50 g at Mach 4. This means that maximum turn rate is 18,54 deg/s for AIM-120 and Meteor and 23,2 deg/s for MICA IR. Comparing this to respective aircraft turn rates (36,4 deg/s ITR for Rafale and 35 deg/s ITR for F-22), it can be seen that both aircraft have a good chance of evading any of the missiles listed (missile needs to at least match aircraft’s turn rate, and in some cases have twice as high turn rate, in order to hit).


missiles doesnt need to match aircraft turn rate to hit , they are intercept not trying to follow aircraft path
also what you mentioned is ITR, which mean aircraft cannot sustain that turn rate for long and also lose alot of speed and altitude after perform it ,let say you perform very hard turn to dodge first missiles what will happened when the second missiles come ?


This is true. There are many thing that are wrong with the above comparison:

1. Missiles have the highest speed when they are flying at high altitude and speed decreases significantly at low altitudes
2. Aircraft have the highest maneuverability at low altitude and relatively low speed
3. Turn rates do not tell us much about ability to evade missiles as tightest possible turn would mean turning in place which would not help much to avoid missiles. Having low speed and very high turn rate would get one killed as the aircraft would not get away from the flight line of the missile even if it turns at much lower rate.
4. Aircraft might achieve those turn rates only in perfect conditions, flying very slowly and at low fuel state and with no stores.
5. When missile starts turning very tightly, it will lose speed and thus turn rate will actually increase until enough speed is lost and there is not enough energy and lift to maintain turn.
6. Timing the turn is difficult against BVR missile as it must be very difficult to see such a small missile with no smoke trail. Evading old and very large SAMs is much easier due to large size and big smoke trails. Even with missile launch and approach warning systems it's difficult due to small amount of time to react.

So in real life escaping from missile is far more complex than simply comparing turn rates in totally different altitudes and situations. I see it rather difficult against modern missiles if missile is launched within or close to NEZ. Evading using speed, stealth and countermeasures must be much more reliable methods. Of course maneuvering is one trick in the bag, but not necessarily in the way picard578 thinks it is.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:02
by wil59
Helples, right it might be, but sorry, it is a hard maneuvering F-22 at the very least and it do hit a nerve doesn't it?
[​IMG]


This is NO "cross hair" but a proximity warning; proving that the Raptor is climbing in full A-B (can see the plumes against the background) with vortexes and all at high g, from the minimum combat level and Rafale is diving on it, it is a camera shot which have to be AXIAL, slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

btw, Lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon was there and his comments were reported accurately.

Now, go and dig an official, signed article from Flight Global saying this!

I know Craig Hoyle and correspond with him regularly, he IS the ONLY official defense editor at F-I and never posted such article, more to the point, the infamous John Lake can post article in their sister edition, using the same website but of course you wouldn't know, would you?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:06
by eloise
armedupdate wrote:Eloise why did the new Rafale get IRST removed? Can you give me a source?

here
Some reports suggest that the new OSF-IT will not have an IR channel at all, meaning that Rafale would lose its onboard IRST and FLIR capabilities, relying on the Damocles targeting pod to provide any IR picture. There has been speculation that the loss of the IR is required to make space for the larger AESA radar boxes. Because the OSF-IT and the new radar will be validated together (to save duplication in the flight test effort), the new OSF will not be incorporated until the ‘Roadmap’ aircraft, though it could have been made available much earlier.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-214754/

armedupdate wrote:Also isn't all IR vulnerable to phosphorous smoke? If the F-22 is using red phosphorus flares it can blind the IRST when providing

IR radiation maynot penetrate smoke , but if F-22 drop flare , it will be vulnerable in that case because enemy's IRST will look at the location of the flares and know where it is , also they dont carry that much flares

armedupdate wrote:Also what happens if the enemy uses AESA radar as a RWR? Wouldn't the gain be exactly the same meaning the exact same intercept range as the same detection range?

no radar would always have better processing gain since it know the frequency , waveform , PRF of the signal it send out
while RWR have advantages that it received more powerful signal

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:11
by armedupdate
wil59 wrote: slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

The problem is if that was a guns only engagement(which was the only type of engagement the F-22 fought the Rafale), their will be no missile kill since there was no missiles. If the rules were no missiles, the F-22 can have the comfort of getting in the Rafale's range if there were missiles.

Also the problem is the neither the French or Americans claim the Rafale beat the Raptor. Both reports say the F-22 won.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:17
by armedupdate
eloise wrote:IR radiation maynot penetrate smoke , but if F-22 drop flare , it will be vulnerable in that case because enemy's IRST will look at the location of the flares and know where it is , also they dont carry that much flares

Er....that is quite a lot of flares enough for a smoke screen with a burst of 10-20. Also if the F-22 detect the missile launch from before terminal phase and does an evasive run away from the missile's direction the missile will be unable to get full midcourse updates from the IRST to find range and velocity of the evasive run(plus unablity to lock on to the F-22 due to its stealth), and more likely to fall short.
Image

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:26
by eloise
armedupdate wrote:Er....that is quite a lot of flares enough for a smoke screen with a burst of 10-20. Also if the F-22 detect the missile launch from before terminal phase and does an evasive run away from the missile's direction the missile will be unable to get full midcourse updates from the IRST to find range and velocity of the evasive run(plus unablity to lock on to the F-22 due to its stealth), and more likely to fall short.
Image

the flares will fall down while aircraft moved ahead so it don really see the potential for the flares to block the whole IRST , IR missiles FoV here

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:35
by hornetfinn
armedupdate wrote:
eloise wrote:IR radiation maynot penetrate smoke , but if F-22 drop flare , it will be vulnerable in that case because enemy's IRST will look at the location of the flares and know where it is , also they dont carry that much flares

Er....that is quite a lot of flares enough for a smoke screen with a burst of 10-20. Also if the F-22 detect the missile launch from before terminal phase and does an evasive run away from the missile's direction the missile will be unable to get full midcourse updates from the IRST to find range and velocity of the evasive run(plus unablity to lock on to the F-22 due to its stealth), and more likely to fall short.


Flares would not really work much against imaging IRST systems, especially when used in conjunction of radar or laser (to find range). Problem is that flares drop from aircraft to the rear and only burn for a relatively short time. So they would work best if enemy is at six o'clock and be much less effective from other directions. Short burning time means the effect would be short lived. I also doubt that flares would confuse IRST systems that much even in passive ranging, but I also doubt the ability of passive ranging being used for missile engagements in most situations. FSO has laser rangefinder which could be used and might well be the best system for Rafale against F-22. However I seriously doubt Rafale ability to see and get close enough to F-22 to use that capability in real situation before meeting AMRAAMs.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 11:49
by armedupdate
The flares don't create the cover they are too small, the smoke does, that is the whole point, you want the flares to burn very fast to produce the smoke to blind the IR sensor(phosphorus type cannot be penetrated by IR). Also I believe the type the Su-27 series uses instantly throws out smoke. Smoke is also a common coutermeasure in ground combat systems in soft kill munitions to blind IIR sensors. It can definitely defeat non-LRF passive ranging such as motion anyalsis. If IR systems get better and better, the Raptor and JSF will have to make some countermeasures to counter anti-stealth sensors especially if the enemy has ramjet missiles like R-77PD and PL-15. Yes LRF is limited in range putting it in the effective range of the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 15:27
by eloise
armedupdate wrote:The flares don't create the cover they are too small, the smoke does, that is the whole point, you want the flares to burn very fast to produce the smoke to blind the IR sensor(phosphorus type cannot be penetrated by IR). Also I believe the type the Su-27 series uses instantly throws out smoke. Smoke is also a common coutermeasure in ground combat systems in soft kill munitions to blind IIR sensors. It can definitely defeat non-LRF passive ranging such as motion anyalsis. .

aircraft is constantly moving hence the smoke will only blind the seeker for 1-2 seconds top, and only in certain direction

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 17:10
by SpudmanWP
armedupdate wrote: Also the F-22 can use its MAW as an 360 IRST like the DAS.


No, the system on the F-22 is MAWS only. While it does gather the info as an IIR video image, that video is never passed to the rest of the avionics system, it only passes MAWS tracks.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 18:58
by armedupdate
eloise wrote:

Not if it turns 0 degrees to the target at tries to outrun the missile. Seconds can be the difference between intercept and miss. IRST is poorer at measuring velocity.

SpudmanWP wrote:No, the system on the F-22 is MAWS only. While it does gather the info as an IIR video image, that video is never passed to the rest of the avionics system, it only passes MAWS tracks.

Er, LM says it can be used as an IRST.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/d ... mld-pc.pdf

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 20:14
by SpudmanWP
Te operative work in that PDF is "development".

The USAF has not asked for it and has not paid for it.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 20:19
by gta4
wil59 wrote:1. The dog-fight is a 'random' exercise in: "The F22 did not show superior the the Rafale" ... could also be said: "The Rafale is at the same level than the Raptor in dogfight." It is my professional opinion.
capitaine-romain. I remember my first years in the Air Force. I was a student pilot. My classmates and I had spent a good time watching the picture presented by the newspaper "Air and Cuckoos''as that of a Mirage IV: it was a Mirage 2000N.
Today, to be honest, I do not read the newspaper.
ATLC : L'interview du commandant de l'escadron de chasse 01.007 Provence !!! - capitaine-romain http://indiandefence.com/threads/eurofi ... 8/page-362 look interview


Stupid.

At least F-22 gained at least a victory against Rafale in dogfight, but Rafale gained no victory on F-22. So F-22 has an advantage.

And, french pilots admitted that F-22 has better nose pointing and better energy retention. That is clearly a significant advantage in dogfight. Poor rafale.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 20:22
by gta4
wil59 wrote:Helples, right it might be, but sorry, it is a hard maneuvering F-22 at the very least and it do hit a nerve doesn't it?
[​IMG]


This is NO "cross hair" but a proximity warning; proving that the Raptor is climbing in full A-B (can see the plumes against the background) with vortexes and all at high g, from the minimum combat level and Rafale is diving on it, it is a camera shot which have to be AXIAL, slightly out of gun sight, the F-22 is visibly maneuvering hard, so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill...

btw, Lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon was there and his comments were reported accurately.

Now, go and dig an official, signed article from Flight Global saying this!

I know Craig Hoyle and correspond with him regularly, he IS the ONLY official defense editor at F-I and never posted such article, more to the point, the infamous John Lake can post article in their sister edition, using the same website but of course you wouldn't know, would you?


" so is the Rafale on an AAM fight this would be a kill..."

No, if it is a missile fight, F-22 will use other tactics (such as high AOA pointing) to gain missile lock opportunity.

F-22 adopts different tactics in different rules of engagements. That's it,end of the line.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 20:32
by gta4
To wil59:

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have gained missile lock in all 6 scenarios. It is the rafale (not the F-22) who was saved by the rules of "gun fight". French pilots admitted that Rafale was "resisting the F-22" all the time, which means F-22 was in their rear hemisphere most of the time.

Rafale tried their best to outrun F-22's crosshair all the time, but still got their a$$ kicked.

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT F-22 GAINED AT LEAST A VICTORY ON RAFALE IN DOGFIGHT, AND STAYED AT RAFALE'S REAR HEMISPHERE FOR MOST OF THE TIME?

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT RAFALE GAINED NO VICTORY ON F-22?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 22:35
by gta4
To wil59:

French pilots says that Rafale could get some kind of equality because THEY ARE SAVED FROM THE RULES OF GUNFIGHT.

But don't ignore that french pilots also admitted that F-22 has some serious MANEUVERABILITY ADVANTAGE, including nose pointing and energy retention.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 14:32
by wil59
gta4 wrote:To wil59:

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would have gained missile lock in all 6 scenarios. It is the rafale (not the F-22) who was saved by the rules of "gun fight". French pilots admitted that Rafale was "resisting the F-22" all the time, which means F-22 was in their rear hemisphere most of the time.

Rafale tried their best to outrun F-22's crosshair all the time, but still got their a$$ kicked.

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT F-22 GAINED AT LEAST A VICTORY ON RAFALE IN DOGFIGHT, AND STAYED AT RAFALE'S REAR HEMISPHERE FOR MOST OF THE TIME?

WHY DO YOU KEEP INGORING THE FACT THAT RAFALE GAINED NO VICTORY ON F-22?

resisted do not please say to be has the sorrow like being all the temp in the sight of the f-22; the pilot expressed made that the RAFALE resisted the best air hunter of superieurity as it is known as!not forgotten that the RAFALE is omnirole which is not as f-22 which is a combatant of the domination of the air! what want to say that the RAFALE made you croyer well not?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 15:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Look, it is as simple as this, the F-22 displayed superiority. Was it flawless? No. I recall an interview where an F-22 pilot was asked which planes give him the hardest time in DACT and he responded "legacy hornet" and IIRC "with Rafale close behind" because the two of those planes can "rate" well and then unload to recover energy. Are they superior to the Raptor? No. Do they force a Raptor pilot to bring his A-game to DACT BFM? Absolutely. By contrast I have read two reports where Vipers where just so easy to beat because they CAN'T rate enough. Are Hornets and Rafales superior to the Viper? No. The Viper bests them in Energy but not rate so it can play to it's strengths and come out ahead. That game just doesn't work against the Raptor. There is no strict hierarchy based on BFM.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 00:31
by checksixx
LoL...sooooo many 'experts' around here....meanwhile........its nice to be able to watch flying ops during my breaks!

Good sized exercise going on at Langley right now....many pics at the links....

Royal, French air forces arrive for coalition exercise
http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123464569

Mid-air might: USAF, RAF, FrAF train during Trilateral Exercise
http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123465055

Image

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 08:34
by zero-one
hornetfinn wrote:
Flares would not really work much against imaging IRST systems, especially when used in conjunction of radar or laser (to find range). Problem is that flares drop from aircraft to the rear and only burn for a relatively short time. So they would work best if enemy is at six o'clock and be much less effective from other directions. Short burning time means the effect would be short lived. I also doubt that flares would confuse IRST systems that much even in passive ranging, but I also doubt the ability of passive ranging being used for missile engagements in most situations. FSO has laser rangefinder which could be used and might well be the best system for Rafale against F-22. However I seriously doubt Rafale ability to see and get close enough to F-22 to use that capability in real situation before meeting AMRAAMs.


Lets not dismiss the flare so easily, as just like aircraft and missiles, not all flares are alike. For example, the Israelis have been in the forfront of developing advanced IR countermeasures that can give you that extra second needed to evade an incoming Aim-9X perhaps.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68452

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 10:48
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
Flares would not really work much against imaging IRST systems, especially when used in conjunction of radar or laser (to find range). Problem is that flares drop from aircraft to the rear and only burn for a relatively short time. So they would work best if enemy is at six o'clock and be much less effective from other directions. Short burning time means the effect would be short lived. I also doubt that flares would confuse IRST systems that much even in passive ranging, but I also doubt the ability of passive ranging being used for missile engagements in most situations. FSO has laser rangefinder which could be used and might well be the best system for Rafale against F-22. However I seriously doubt Rafale ability to see and get close enough to F-22 to use that capability in real situation before meeting AMRAAMs.


Lets not dismiss the flare so easily, as just like aircraft and missiles, not all flares are alike. For example, the Israelis have been in the forfront of developing advanced IR countermeasures that can give you that extra second needed to evade an incoming Aim-9X perhaps.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68452


Flares work much better against missiles than IRST systems due to much closer proximity of sensor and flares. Of course extra second or two can easily make difference between hit and miss in that case. Against IRST system that doesn't matter much in most cases as the situation doesn't change that much during that time for it to matter that much. Besides, pretty much all sensors (I'm sure IRST systems do also) do extrapolation of tracks and short disturbances in tracking information (like losing target for couple of seconds) doesn't affect the tracking process much (errors would stay relatively small).

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2015, 23:05
by gta4
So glad wil59 accepted that F-22 has some maneuverability advantage over rafale (high AOA pointing, energy retention...)

Even rafale pilots accept these facts, while some forum players don't. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:




Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 08:46
by avon1944
Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2016, 17:06
by wil59
avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.

What is your problem guys! the fact you still talked about this article says a lot about you! The fact is mere 5 draw and 1 win for the F-22! when you compare the price of each plane there is nothing decked lol

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2016, 22:10
by botsing
wil59 wrote:the fact you still talked about this article says a lot about you!

1) So what does this tell about these members? Please enlighten me.

2) And will that also explain why you are still here?

:roll:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 00:32
by madrat
The timing of the victory may be a message, too. Avoiding the kill until the last engagement, and doing so in a merciless fashion speaks volumes. Almost as if they were told not to pound them to a pulp...

And oh BTW - time limits on the engagements insured we wouldn't see either win by attrition. You can wear down an opponent in a prolonged engagement if you can ingress and egress at will. Short limits were there for a reason.

And oh BTW 2.0 - each side was given a chance to start with a tactical advantage. How devastating it must be to get one's a$$ whooped starting with the advantage. Whoops

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 08:47
by wil59
avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.
Rafale vs f-4 phantom? you claim that the F-4 beat Rafale dogfight! So the F-4 must eat f-16 f-18 f-35! you should guarded F-4 and replaced build for others! you have the links in this statement? Rafale f1?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 09:32
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

YouTube Videos
F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.
Rafale vs f-4 phantom? you claim that the F-4 beat Rafale dogfight! So the F-4 must eat f-16 f-18 f-35! you should guarded F-4 and replaced build for others! you have the links in this statement? Rafale f1?
same is true if it does not prove anything! the mirage 2000-9 with french driver won against the f-22 Strike Level and then? we will not say that the m2000 is better than the F-22!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 15:05
by aquietguy
wil59 wrote:
avon1944 wrote:Has anyone takened a look at the HUD of the Rafale (the same thing for a T-38 and, a F-16) in other aerial exercises. I took a good close look to try and READ THE HUD of the T-38. The T-38 is around 15Kft, air speed 410kts, AoA ≈6 ° and, pull 5+ G's! When the F-22A became operational, its ceiling was 60K.ft. and it could maneuver at high speeds, since then the ceiling has been raised! What is the F-22A doing in this enviroment? Is it providing training for the T-38 pilot or, trying to be creative to get away at these low speeds and altitudes! I have pictures of French Rafales that went to the Netherlands to exercise with their AF's F-4 Phantoms, several other European country's AF attended. I have several nice pictures of the Luftwaffe F-4 Phantoms that were parading around with kill markings of Rafales after the exercise. Another exercise many years earlier where the PLAAF's Su-27s were being shot down in BVR combat by Turkish A.F. F-4 Phantoms, ROEs?
Group Captain M. W. J. CHAPPELL brought a group of six Typhoons to an Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The Typhoons would test or evaluate their radars, ECM and, ECCM equiptment without Russian reconn forces ease dropping. Later Gr. Capt. Mark Chappell stated that the thing he hated about combat against the F-22A was, that he could look through his canopy and see an F-22 but, couldn't get a weapons lock-on it! I wondered if other fighters in they same situation have this problem?

F-22A Vs T-38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ (Read the HUD at 0:03Secs) - HUD ___ AoA - 5.4, Speed 424kts., Altitude 17, 20,000ft., etc. Why is the F-22A playing with a T-38 at this speed - altitude region? ROEs?

F-22 vs Rafale dogfight (In French but, try and read the HUD).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioTTnjxNc7o
It looks like the altitude is -13950m or is that feet? If 13,950m = 45,337ft., on the lower right side of the HUD it looks like the Rafale pulled 7+Gs and, while the F-22A looses this encounter throughout the engagement I have HUDs screen movements that were faster such the engagement between the Mirage 2000 versus an F-16C. Find out the rules of engagement and you will a better idea of what really happened unfortunately, the ROEs are seldom mention.

What is your problem guys! the fact you still talked about this article says a lot about you! The fact is mere 5 draw and 1 win for the F-22! when you compare the price of each plane there is nothing decked lol


The question is how many Rafale's would be lost BVR before the knife fight?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2016, 15:41
by uclass
aquietguy wrote:The question is how many Rafale's would be lost BVR before the knife fight?

All of them.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2016, 18:43
by les_paul59
the rafales would never even know they were being targeted by the raptors until the amramms turned on their radars

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2016, 09:31
by avon1944
avon1944

It appears as though many responders do not understand what the R.O.E.s are all about! They are rules of conduct that enable a lower performance fighter to compete with a high performance fighter . . . . THAT's ALL!
It is not a comparison on who has the biggest balls! It is all about providing good training for both pilots. That is why the T-38 is able to remain on the tail of the F-22.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2016, 18:21
by les_paul59
my mistake, I forgot the rafale had the ir maws system. But even still, if you don't know the raptor is even around until your maws detects a bvr amramm coming towards you, it doesn't look good for the rafale in bvr against the raptor

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2016, 22:46
by wil59
les_paul59 wrote:my mistake, I forgot the rafale had the ir maws system. But even still, if you don't know the raptor is even around until your maws detects a bvr amramm coming towards you, it doesn't look good for the rafale in bvr against the raptor

yes the F-22 may be the best aircraft dominated the skies, but the burst may be the best aircraft 4.5 generation is I think better than 5 Russian or Chinese generation! Burst has better sensor; avionics; data fusion; AESA radar, and the best result ew, and has already demonstrated the ability in the field, can be used from aircraft carrier, can increased 1.5 times its weight in bomb and fuel c ' is really a very good flight! Only sinners will both the criticism and say yes but! ok but had better be saying it is already going to the field? (Pack-fa f-35 j-10b etc.)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2016, 22:07
by gta4
To wi59:

"5 draws and 1 win for F22" is from the claim of rafale pilots. Is this credible? We all know that a man cannot act as the witness of his own case. He has the motivation to make false testimony.

Since other french sources claim "F-22 gun killed the Rafale at least twice", the claim of Rafale pilots could not prove anything. He has the motivation to make false testimony.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 01:29
by nutshell
Pak-fa is a sexy myth, sadly

Ehy no hate guys, i'm italian, i value the aesthetics a lot and russians frames are delightful :P .

Btw i just see (i'm late) the spin tail maneuver video performed by a F22.

That was SICK.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 09:49
by wil59
gta4 wrote:To wi59:

"5 draws and 1 win for F22" is from the claim of rafale pilots. Is this credible? We all know that a man cannot act as the witness of his own case. He has the motivation to make false testimony.

Since other french sources claim "F-22 gun killed the Rafale at least twice", the claim of Rafale pilots could not prove anything. He has the motivation to make false testimony.
Open your eyes and look at all the sources say it is 5 draw and 1 win! but also have french 1 victory disputed by us is why the french have posted video 1 to restore the truth that would be the legitimate one kill! and you will say that the french driver are a liar! the German driver who claimed their victory over F-22 are also lying!? you're gonna say they had the chanse and in the Eurofighter real fight would be dead! you can not admit that the F-22 is not invincible; it has countered the tactic for stealthy as married flew low and the relief which makes it difficult for same f-22 found so! you say that f-22 is better than any other aircraft ok proves me has he done on the field! I can give you an example the blast destroyed a target 55 kilometers with 1 AASM; like a boring fact: http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/ar ... les-166808

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 19:17
by gta4
but also have french 1 victory disputed by us is why the french have posted video 1 to restore the truth that would be the legitimate one kill!


How many times do I need to say this?

1) That video is 3-minute long, but the F-22 only appeared at the front hemisphere of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? The french people won't let us know.

2) That is not a kill, because that was a gunfight which requires the crosshair to overlay the target, which did not happen.

I think you would argue that if it was a missile fight....

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would use other tactics (such as high AOA pointing) to gain missile lock opportunity.

F-22 adopts different tactics in different rules of engagements. That's it,end of the line.


The proof: French air force did not interpret this as a KILL.

French air force never says it had gained any dogfight victories on F-22 (some draws, one or two defeat, no victories). French officials never claimed any dogfight victories on F-22! This clearly indicates that the dogfight in the video was not a victory. Ahahahahahahahaha.

3) There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale at least twice without much difficulties. Are you ignorant?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2016, 21:22
by gta4
I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2016, 10:07
by wil59
gta4 wrote:I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!
or you saw 2 victory? in your imagination lol
http://defence.pk/threads/rafales-aeria ... in.181014/

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2016, 12:32
by madrat
Stop trolling. This garbage was debated ad naseum and the French sources admitted the pictures were not from the 1v1s. Wishful thinking to regurgitate the vomit... seven years late.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2016, 18:30
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!
or you saw 2 victory? in your imagination lol
http://defence.pk/threads/rafales-aeria ... in.181014/


Please explain this:

Image

French used to admitted F-22 gained at least 2 victories in dogfights.

French also admitted tha F-22 came out on top for most dogfights.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 17:10
by wil59
gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!
or you saw 2 victory? in your imagination lol
http://defence.pk/threads/rafales-aeria ... in.181014/


Please explain this:

Image

French used to admitted F-22 gained at least 2 victories in dogfights.

French also admitted tha F-22 came out on top for most dogfights.
um, you should have a stealthy brain lad, and I'll tell you or not stealth aircraft generates heat and Electro- Magnetic show! more a missile fired over 50 kilometer can have very lucky to hit an opponent with a series of last order! over a plane and never alone so if the same stealth graduation opponent has a good chance it has identified are round! stealth she served however until now? 3 generation aircraft do the job in Iraq or in Syria! have you not understood that the current war are asymmetric warfare and stealth aircraft is useless for this kind of warfare! All this is just marketing to impose a new norm is spent even more relevant that the nations that have the ability to build fighter aircraft lost this advantage and become dependent on countries with ilimité expenditure for R & D! This is what will come to Europe will become US dependent see what is happening with the United States, Italy, Belgium, Spain or will they bought f-35 when they could have bought européein was beneficial for the industry
they will lose their ability to build fighter jets and will be dependent usa; veiled please consider France as a scope statement has preferred to make a versatile aircraft and thus kept its independence as the usa have kept theirs!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 18:38
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:3 generation aircraft do the job in Iraq or in Syria! have you not understood that the current war are asymmetric warfare and stealth aircraft is useless for this kind of warfare!


F-22s operating in syria has basically proven fifth generation aircraft, and everyone is getting the understanding there (except you apparently). They are also more than just stealth. F-22s were key players in the initial Syrian operations. I also notice the French used the Rafale in Syria... is it 3rd generation now?


All this is just marketing to impose a new norm is spent even more relevant that the nations that have the ability to build fighter aircraft lost this advantage and become dependent on countries with ilimité expenditure for R & D! This is what will come to Europe will become US dependent see what is happening with the United States, Italy, Belgium, Spain or will they bought f-35 when they could have bought européein was beneficial for the industry


Blaming the US for the lack of funding put into European defense during the 1990s and 2000s is laughable.



they will lose their ability to build fighter jets


I guess there is a huge difference in Italy building parts in an F-35 as opposed to building parts in a Typhoon. Whats the Difference? And how is an F-35 any different from the Typhoon? Typhoon was a program with multiple countries building parts, to create a fighter. F-35 is the same. When is the last time any of the countries you mention actually built their very own individual fighter? And what were the results?

next, how important is it to them that are able to? I would say very little. The F-35 exists because not a whole lot of countries even want to attempt a 21st century fighter. Don't know if you noticed but Europe really is not into defence spending. You can look and see for yourself.

and will be dependent usa; veiled please consider France as a scope statement has preferred to make a versatile aircraft and thus kept its independence as the usa have kept theirs!


Rafale is a joke, and France rejoined NATO in 2009 anyway. its not so much equipment that makes one "independent" its alliances and treaties first. God knows how many billions could have been saved if they had simply bought US Hornets and stayed in the Eurofighter program. Every nasty thing people have said with the F-35 could be multiplied by Ten for Rafale

oh and how many 5th generation fighters is independent France working on now?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2016, 09:57
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:3 generation aircraft do the job in Iraq or in Syria! have you not understood that the current war are asymmetric warfare and stealth aircraft is useless for this kind of warfare!


F-22s operating in syria has basically proven fifth generation aircraft, and everyone is getting the understanding there (except you apparently). They are also more than just stealth. F-22s were key players in the initial Syrian operations. I also notice the French used the Rafale in Syria... is it 3rd generation now? WIL59/ really? it is known as in report of missions which one can see on Internet, that are the Rafale which flew over Syria in first! before same as the boat custom draws with tomahawks, which proves well the quality of the protection system and jamming of the Rafale.


All this is just marketing to impose a new norm is spent even more relevant that the nations that have the ability to build fighter aircraft lost this advantage and become dependent on countries with ilimité expenditure for R & D! This is what will come to Europe will become US dependent see what is happening with the United States, Italy, Belgium, Spain or will they bought f-35 when they could have bought européein was beneficial for the industry


Blaming the US for the lack of funding put into European defense during the 1990s and 2000s is laughable. WIL59/ The problem is that England always countered the common proposals for a European defense will know why?! Moreover as I said the sums for European defense for each country is very low! We cannot not allotted sums enormous as the United States which has one doctrines of super military power and of preserved a power superior have all other nations some is the money spent for that! It is not the position of France therefore the Rafale is enough for the French need! it does not need as it is often spoken on the forum to have a very large autonomy France is 17 times smaller than the USA if you to look at the square kilometres has to cover with planes for protected are territory 200 planes is rather well!



they will lose their ability to build fighter jets


I guess there is a huge difference in Italy building parts in an F-35 as opposed to building parts in a Typhoon. Whats the Difference? And how is an F-35 any different from the Typhoon? Typhoon was a program with multiple countries building parts, to create a fighter. F-35 is the same. When is the last time any of the countries you mention actually built their very own individual fighter? And what were the results?

next, how important is it to them that are able to? I would say very little. The F-35 exists because not a whole lot of countries even want to attempt a 21st century fighter. Don't know if you noticed but Europe really is not into defence spending. You can look and see for yourself.

and will be dependent usa; veiled please consider France as a scope statement has preferred to make a versatile aircraft and thus kept its independence as the usa have kept theirs!


Rafale is a joke, and France rejoined NATO in 2009 anyway. its not so much equipment that makes one "independent" its alliances and treaties first. God knows how many billions could have been saved if they had simply bought US Hornets and stayed in the Eurofighter program. Every nasty thing people have said with the F-35 could be multiplied by Ten for Rafale

oh and how many 5th generation fighters is independent France working on now?
WIL59/ The Rafale is a joke you say?! it is multirole has the capacity of carried nuclear bomb, to make sead proved that it is capacity were very good Yes the RETEX of the Rafale some oneself the conflict in which it was committed were always very good. I think that most edifying is the case of Libya where the Rafale thanks to their capacities of SEAD (deception and jamming) passed the anti-aircraft defences Lybian (completely in service 19 March before strikings of masses supposed to neutralize them) and the primary goals treated on the ground. And that in spite of the warning of the director of the American information, James Clapper on the danger which represented the Libyan Anti-aircraft defence for the French planes. Proof that stealth is not the requirement of a combat aircraft.It has a radar AESA with capacity SAR.an armament with AASM It has acts of a weapon comparable with bomb JDAM American, in sohistiquée, say the experts. Point out you to it destroyed tank has 55 measures in kilometres of distance in lybie! Do you have an example has to give me which is comparable? The air superiority weapon of choice of the Rafale is the MICA (Missile Intercept, Combat and Self-defense). It is a medium-range missile to 112kg, which replaces two missiles at once: the Super 530D and Magic II. It can be run on rail up to 9g (wings) or pneumatic ejectors up to 4g (fuselage). It is multi-target and shoot-and-forget (fire and forget). His strong impulse propellant can be accelerated to the speed of the aircraft increased mach3,5 and its steerable thrusters allow it to transfer under 50g. It has a range of more than 80km. It emits relatively little smoke (hard to spot) and its propulsion is short. Guiding the missile is provided by two perfectly interchangeable heads without adjustments, and worth one and the other in close combat as BVR (Beyond Visual Range-beyond visual range, more than 20km):
homing EM (electromagnetic) (name: AD4A) able to spot a target several dozen kilometers, designed to be used in a context of severe measures against-he can choose the appropriate target even without the information of the aircraft gunner even in the case of a shot down, despite the mess soil.
homing IR (infrared): a very advanced technology, it has a cooling circuit of an autonomy of 10 hours. Its imaging sensor and calculator allow to distinguish an aircraft of a lure or a bright landscape (recognition engines sides, edges ...) and is therefore very difficult to lure.Rafale funny?!
Er which is the availability ratio for the planes of 5 generation? how much temp is necessary it to give the plane under good condition of flight after a mission? how much does plane of 5 cost 1:00 of flight for 1 generation? how much does the handing-over cost has level of its stealth after each flies?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2016, 22:18
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have other french sources claiming that the "F-22 gun killed the Rafale easily at least twice", and our french friend wil59 is ignoring this.

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale", and our french friend wil59 is again ignoring this :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All he has is a 3-minute video showing that F-22 appeared in front of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? :mrgreen:

Poor french!
or you saw 2 victory? in your imagination lol
http://defence.pk/threads/rafales-aeria ... in.181014/


Did you see 5 draw? In your imagination!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 17:11
by wil59
uclass wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
wil59 wrote: The Rafale is a joke you say?! it is multirole has the capacity of carried nuclear bomb, to make sead proved that it is capacity were very good Yes the RETEX of the Rafale some oneself the conflict in which it was committed were always very good. I think that most edifying is the case of Libya where the Rafale thanks to their capacities of SEAD (deception and jamming) passed the anti-aircraft defences Lybian (completely in service 19 March before strikings of masses supposed to neutralize them) and the primary goals treated on the ground.

Official report says an SA-8 targeted them but fortunately they were out of range. Libya hardly had a competent AD either. In 1986 they took out a hospital with an SA-5 accidentally.

The vast majority of SEAD was done by USN Hornets, F-16CJ and Italian Tornado ECRs wrt aircraft. With the rest done by USN and RN Tomahawks. France conducted one sortie prior to the cruise missile strike with Mirages and Rafales and hit 4 vehicles. No record of any French SEAD.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to
standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan
airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out
successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft:
eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds
(for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located
some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly
destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the
Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales.

In their post-war assessment, the French point at this first strike to downplay their
reliance on U.S. assets for SEAD. This assessment is correct for this particular raid,
since no losses occurred. Libyan air defenses nonetheless identified the French raid
and engaged it with an SA-8 surface-to-air missile system, which fortunately was out
of range.12 It is, however, questionable that such a risky tactic would have worked for
the whole campaign, as the French were probably not ready to take significant risks of
aircraft losses. Therefore, this opening move might denote a divergence of operational
habits. The French, like the British, are used to making do with less.

Despite France’s early accomplishment, the first days of operations relied heavily
on U.S. assets, especially ones that the French were unable to provide, including
SEAD aircraft and Tomahawk cruise missiles that conducted deep strikes against critical
infrastructure. (Of the 199 sea-launched cruise missiles fired in the first ten days,
192 were American and seven were British


And the range of a MICA is 50km not 80km. For reference, the ground-launched version manages 20km and a CAMM (ASRAAM-based) manages 25+km. This makes it a short-range AAM by modern standards.
The vast majority of SEAD was done by USN Hornets, F-16CJ and Italian Tornado ECRs wrt aircraft. With the rest done by USN and RN Tomahawks. France conducted one sortie prior to the cruise missile strike with Mirages and Rafales and hit 4 vehicles. No record of any French SEAD.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2011/05/l ... rated.html Remind you this Strike Level! In terms of air combat, its frontal sector optronics (OSF) allowed the Rafale visuelement identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, while the usual identification in air defense is between three and five kilometers. In electronic warfare, Gusts detected surface-to-air threats as American F-16 CJ, which is the main purpose, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the firing six air-to-ground munitions (A2SM) on 6 different goals (programmed) at a distance of 20 to 40 kilometers and then take three air-to-air missile Mica, all in a minute - reflecting the versatility of the plane! Rafale is clearly more efficient than the f-16 cj which is a specialized aircraft for the SEAD! So say the French are incapable of doing SEAD shows that you underestimated the potential French! which also have SIGINT / ELINT http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... x-emirats/

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 18:51
by uclass
wil59 wrote:http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2011/05/l ... rated.html Remind you this Strike Level! In terms of air combat, its frontal sector optronics (OSF) allowed the Rafale visuelement identify targets up to 30/40 kilometers, while the usual identification in air defense is between three and five kilometers. In electronic warfare, Gusts detected surface-to-air threats as American F-16 CJ, which is the main purpose, had not seen. A Rafale could simulate the firing six air-to-ground munitions (A2SM) on 6 different goals (programmed) at a distance of 20 to 40 kilometers and then take three air-to-air missile Mica, all in a minute - reflecting the versatility of the plane! Rafale is clearly more efficient than the f-16 cj which is a specialized aircraft for the SEAD! So say the French are incapable of doing SEAD shows that you underestimated the potential French! which also have SIGINT / ELINT http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... x-emirats/

Well this is kind of the problem with French claims regarding the Rafale. For other claims and aircraft, I see articles in major military aircraft magazines, or official reports. For Rafale claims I see blog-spots.

OSF is an IRST system, again not new, several fighters have them- Flankers (Su-27/30/35), MiG-29s, EF2000s etc.

I'm yet to see evidence somewhere other than a blog-spot for most of these claims. I 'm afraid I'm going with this version:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

RAND Project AIR FORCE (PAF), a division of the RAND Corporation, is the U.S.
Air Force’s federally funded research and development center for studies and analyses.
PAF provides the Air Force with independent analyses of policy alternatives affecting
the development, employment, combat readiness, and support of current and future
air, space, and cyber forces. Research is conducted in four programs: Force Modernization
and Employment; Manpower, Personnel, and Training; Resource Management;
and Strategy and Doctrine. The research reported here was prepared under contract
TA7014-06-C-0001.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 19:15
by charlielima223
wil59 wrote: La France is to stealth, the problem is the cost! The Russian are ok, the Chinese do ok, saw how bright the people down is the misery! Rather they build airplanes for 5 generations that give food to the poor of their country do you think the people in difficulty as you think? In France have no stealth but people were a vital minimum for the accée free care for poor people, an unemployment allowance for those not working! 30 days paid leave per year and it is not dependent on seniority in the job! It was the best social system in the world that has a cost but it is a choice! When I see on TV through vivid stories how people who have no work in the USA / China / Russia it is very sad! But they have super Stealth ....


*sarcasm on* great way to deflect a short coming by changing the subject and trying to convey a sense of superiority... *sarcasm off*

Good for you that France has a good social system that rewards laziness. So now its no longer about having a good functional aircraft for the worse case SHTF conflict... its all about;

free health care and 30 days paid vacation!!!

So is that the reason why you depend of foreign nationals to be the most highly trained, veteran, and respected military force in your country *cough* French Foreign Legion *cough cough*

Yes the United States had a downturns in its economy and rate of employment. Though despite all this the United States can still out produce most if not all countries and still has one of the highest economies in the world. Before you get to it... blah blah blah China... wait until that economic bubble bursts, wont be a pretty picture.

Next time some whacked out Jihadi on a train starts attacking people and there aren't any Americans around... you can still claim that you have free health care for all and 30 days paid vacation...

Image

sorry but we're (the US) enjoying our absurd amounts of awesomeness.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 23:10
by wil59
charlielima223 wrote:
wil59 wrote: La France is to stealth, the problem is the cost! The Russian are ok, the Chinese do ok, saw how bright the people down is the misery! Rather they build airplanes for 5 generations that give food to the poor of their country do you think the people in difficulty as you think? In France have no stealth but people were a vital minimum for the accée free care for poor people, an unemployment allowance for those not working! 30 days paid leave per year and it is not dependent on seniority in the job! It was the best social system in the world that has a cost but it is a choice! When I see on TV through vivid stories how people who have no work in the USA / China / Russia it is very sad! But they have super Stealth ....


*sarcasm on* great way to deflect a short coming by changing the subject and trying to convey a sense of superiority... *sarcasm off*

Good for you that France has a good social system that rewards laziness. So now its no longer about having a good functional aircraft for the worse case SHTF conflict... its all about;

free health care and 30 days paid vacation!!!

So is that the reason why you depend of foreign nationals to be the most highly trained, veteran, and respected military force in your country *cough* French Foreign Legion *cough cough*

Yes the United States had a downturns in its economy and rate of employment. Though despite all this the United States can still out produce most if not all countries and still has one of the highest economies in the world. Before you get to it... blah blah blah China... wait until that economic bubble bursts, wont be a pretty picture.

Next time some whacked out Jihadi on a train starts attacking people and there aren't any Americans around... you can still claim that you have free health care for all and 30 days paid vacation...

Image

sorry but we're (the US) enjoying our absurd amounts of awesomeness.
I do not say that the French system on unemployment réconpense laziness! so is the dignity not to let that have no work on the lower side is called his fraternity! Ditto for médical.Vous care said that it is difficult found highly qualified worker you are mistaken there many highly qualified people in France and are sought and recruited by many countries! Go you informed of the next Silicon Valley much of the French work there!About étrangére Legion repprochez you what? They have a solid reputation! asked us Marines who trained with the Legionnaire will they think ?! Watched reporting in conflict in Iraq and other what the Legionnaire, they training the hardest of the world! I saw a story or have Legionnaire were in a Marine base us, some Legionnaires defeated the best Temp which was a record based on traverses the fighter! With luck can you find it on you tube. 60,000 French present in the bay - the third foreign community behind the Chinese and Indians. in SILICON VALLEY

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 13:22
by hornetfinn
I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where Bae Hawk trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 14:24
by cosmicdwarf
Most modern jets are close enough in their WVR capabilities as far as maneuverability that I think it's kind of moot. They all just have different conditions where they have advantages.

It's the BVR capabilities that tend to make one platform dominant.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 19:20
by charlielima223
hornetfinn wrote:I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where <span class="skimwords-potential">Bae Hawk</span><span style="position: absolute;"></span><span style="position: absolute;"></span> trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)


cosmicdwarf wrote:Most modern jets are close enough in their WVR capabilities as far as maneuverability that I think it's kind of moot. They all just have different conditions where they have advantages.

It's the BVR capabilities that tend to make one platform dominant.


Too true.

I'm reading a book titled America's Secret Mig Squadron, The Red Eagles of CONSTANT PEG. The book opens up with 4 F-4s going against a single Mig-17. The F-4s were flying an old tactic of a 4 ship flight in a "flow wing" manner. In the end the Mig-17 trumps all the F-4s.
Did that mean that the Mig-17 was better?
The next day after a familiarization and debrief the F-4s went out again and gave that Mig-17 a run for its money and won. The author of the book who was the initial squadron leader of the Red Eagles would say that the problem with our fighter pilots at the time wasn't that they didn't know how to fly... they just didn't know how to fight. Essentially they were using old tactics.

The knowing the enemies capabilities and having the proper tactics makes all the difference... that and having a good pilot. Trying to claim who won a dogfight when and where is often chest thumping. Unless we've been in the cockpit of such aircraft and have taken part in numerous DACT in that aircraft, then we as the outside observers can only look at specs and measure the lengths of certain bodily objects.

Though in my own PERSONAL OPINION... the F-22 Raptor is superior... :)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2016, 19:34
by vanshilar
charlielima223 wrote:Trying to claim who won a dogfight when and where is often chest thumping. Unless we've been in the cockpit of such aircraft and have taken part in numerous DACT in that aircraft, then we as the outside observers can only look at specs and measure the lengths of certain bodily objects.


Um...we're still talking about planes...right? :P

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 16:20
by XanderCrews
hornetfinn wrote:I love these dogfight results.

- French say that Rafale has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Swedes say Gripen has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Indians say Su-30MKI has beaten everybody in dogfights
- Americans say F-22 has beaten everybody in dogfights

I don't buy any of these. I know that dogfights are very sensitive to pilot mistakes and many random things that can affect the end result. I know one case where Bae Hawk trainer beat Mirage 2000-5 in a dogfight because the Mirage pilot got too overconfident with his energy advantage and Hawk pilot did everything perfectly in that situation. When they did second round, Mirage pilot no longer made the same mistake and got a simulated kill. Mirage 2000-5 (or any other similar fighter aircraft) of course would likely win most of the dogfights against Hawk (or any other trainer aircraft), but even a small mistake can mean a loss. Against fairly similar fighter aircrafts the margin for error has to be even smaller in 1-on-1 dogfights. That's also why everybody who can try to stay out of such situations. I'm sure Rafale can take out F-22 in such a situation if F-22 pilot makes mistake and vice versa. I don't think these dogfight results or claims mean anything except give nice food for arguing... :)



Whats so hard to believe that a pilot will train and train perfectly everytime, regardless of skill or experience and just always win? Lol there is apparently no learning curve. You get your wings and are an instant ace even as a Cat 1 nugget. These guys are perfect in dog fights, yet we still seem to have attrition and crashes. Strange that. The Rafales that mid aired.... Not very perfect yet it happened. You would think guys who never lost a dogfight would not make such a basic mistake...

I run into boxers that have never been hit, and gymnists that have never fallen down all the time LOL

:mrgreen:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2016, 05:01
by armedupdate
There shouldn't be this long of an page to know the F-22 is the superior air superiority fighter and destroy a Rafale with ease.

It has one those most advanced AESAs upgraded with the F-35's technology, while Rafale just got AESA technology. The Rafale may have -, and maybe IRST technology in the future, but they cannot spot the F-22 before getting spotted. The F-22 is harder to lock on to with Active radar homing BVRAAMs reducing the range of the Rafale's Meteors dramatically. So it has to rely on radio command with datalinks from either by LRF(which is very close range) or triangulation(which is much slower than radar in measuring velocity of target). It can use MICA IR, but it will be outranged by the Raptor's AIM-120D, and is much more limited compared to the MICA EM(which is why most nations use ARH BVRAAMs and France only uses MICA IR on wingtips for dogfighting).

In a dogfight, the F-22 accelerates way better and better sustained turn, making much more easier to kill the Rafale and to outrun IIR missiles. Even in gun combat it's better as said by the French.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 16:59
by niafron
Hi Everyone...

First of all, I'm French.

Second, i apologize for my terrible English...

I must say, this topic is fascinating. Well, as we are supposed to be allies ( and in fact, France is the only major country in Europe who never was at war with the USA), the whole argument Rafale vs F22 look a bit unreal. Especially considering these planes does not have the same purpose...

Sure we're rivals for selling weapons on the international market. And time to time, we train together.

Here's my opinion about what happened in Al Dhafra ( and that's just MY opinion, or if you prefer, my best guess considering the few facts we have):

- 6 WVR encounters occured ( both sides agreed on that)
- At least 4 of them ended in a Draw ( According to French version, but never contested on the US Side).
- At least one ended in a F22 victory ( acknowledged by the french version )

So what about the sixth encounter?

A few time after the ATLC, an officer of the 1st US Fighter Wing stated the Raptors achieved 2 victories ( and sorry, but the famous french source who started this topic is an independant newspaper, nothing official, in fact, they probably simply quoted the US version...).

Then, it was the commanding officer of the french detachment in Al DHAFRA who expressed the french version of the exercise: 6 encounter, but one single US victory...

After that, many rumours... until the french governement released these pictures of a Rafale having a Raptor in Sight.

And, finally, earthquake on the internet, this famous vid coming from nowhere:



So what?

My opinion is the vid show the sixth encounter.

If you look carefully, and few people noticed that, at one moment, the speed of the Rafale drop Under 100 Knots. Did it break the R.O.E ?

Let's say yes.

Was it intentional in order for the french pilot to gain some advantage and secure a gun kill? If he cheated in a way, surely one could consider it changed the outcome of the encounter...

However, if not intentional, it sure deny any claim of victory to the Rafale, but it would be a bit strong to consider it a Raptor's victory...

Sure, Air combat training isn't like Football or some other sport... I must admitt, i have no idea of what is decided concerning the result when a pilot break the R.O.E.

Anyway, it could explain why we ended with a an encounter considered a Draw on the french side and a US victory by the Air force.

But i let you tell me what you think about it.

Just keep in mind i like Coca and eat 3 burgers a day, so don't be too rude with such a good french fellow...

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 18:07
by f-16adf
Hello niafron,

Do you happen to know the outcome between Rafale vs Typhoon and Gripen? I heard that Rafale gave the Eurofigher Typhoon a beating WVR and that the Gripen did not fair any better. Or even Rafale vs Mig-29 and Su-27?


P.S. The French have ALWAYS made beautiful jets (Mirage III, 2000, F1 and now Rafale)!!!!!

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 22:40
by niafron
In WVR?

September 2009 at Solenzara air base ( Corsica). 9 gun kill for the Rafale against 1 for the Typhoon (RAF).

A the ATLC, 7 to 1 for the Rafale, but i think it was medium range engagement rather than WVR ( not totaly sure, anyway one more time against the RAF).

Since that, the Typhoon made some progress, there's a story of 2 one to one encouter between a Rafale and a german Typhoon in France ( the German pilot is said to be an instructor who passed some time Inside a french squadron, thusfar having a good Knowledge of french pilots and their tactics).

The Typhoon had the upper hand, probably cause the encounter occured at high altitude ( Typhoon's engines are said to be better than those of the Rafale above 30,000 feet).

According to the rumour, BVR exercise were frequent but keeped secret. It seem the two planes are pretty closed in BVR with maybe a slight advantage for the Rafale.

Finaly, another element was the technical evaluation of the swiss air force who gave another slight advantage to the Rafale for A2A missions ( and without surprise, the Typhoon was no match for A2G).

So the Rafale proved to be Superior until now, but it was some Delay in the Typhoon program. With an AESA radar, the Typhoon could maybe take the lead in BVR combat.

But there's something important about all these elements: it's impossible to know if the planes made a full use of their most sophistacated ( and top secret) devices.

Concerning Rafale, little is known about SPECTRA real capabilities...

I know verry few things concerning Rafale vs Grippen, but honestly, it seem the only advantage of the swedish plane is the price... wich however is very important for medium sized air force.

For Russian planes, i have no informations excepting maybe Indian Air Force favoured the Rafale over Su-30 in a pretty honest competition ( a rare thing, considering the fact political factors are tremendously important regarding weapon's sales).

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2017, 09:47
by niafron
The swiss air force Report ( leaked a long time ago by a Swiss newspaper, nothing confidential anymore):

Image

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2017, 12:37
by icemaverick
The Rafale didn't go up against the Su-30MKI in any competition. The Su-30 was not a candidate in the MMRCA competition you are referring to. Rather, the Rafale beat out the Typhoon, Gripen, advanced F-16, Super Hornet and MiG-35. But it is most telling that India is buying the Rafale, which is considerably more expensive than the Su-30MKI. It seems that the Rafale will be used more for strike missions while the Su-30MKI will do air superiority missions.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2017, 14:32
by mixelflick
Agreed.

The SU-30MKI's and soon to be upgraded MKI's will retain the air superiority mission. Rafael is clearly a swing bird, with an emphasis on strike. I suppose they chose the Mig-29K as a jack of all trades for carrier duty? The one glaring weakness is a 5th gen bird. Reports are that the J-20 has entered service in limited numbers. Obviously, a very immature weapon system but if they're waiting on their version of the PAK-FA, going to be a long time.

One must wonder who the Chinese will sell the J-31 to once it's ready for export. Assuming they can't purchase the F-35, is there a snowball's chance in hell China will sell the J-31 to India?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2017, 17:51
by niafron
@Icemaverick

0K... However, i read somewhere the Indian governement considered buying more SU 30 rather than Rafale.

But was maybe after MMRCA when the negociation with Dassault stalled up for a time?

@Mixelflick

About Indian Navy, they are going to buy a new plane, and the 2 main contenders seems to be the Rafale and the Super Hornet.

And i don't see India buying chinese planes, there's still ongoing arguments between them.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 21:16
by uclass
https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... 575985.pdf

Dorothée Fouchaux
February 4, 2014 9:00 am

Finally, the military intervention in Libya in 2011 also revealed the French air force’s lagging capacity to neutralize land-based air-defense systems. In this instance, most Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions were performed by American forces despite the fact that Libya’s air defenses were relatively weak.[41] France could potentially modify the AASM (a modular air-to-ground missile) to carry a passive electromagnetic homing system to give it the SEAD capacity it currently lacks.[42] However, until it can acquire such a system, the air force will not have the ability to take the lead in similar air operations.


41. See French National Assembly Committee on National Defense and Armed Forces, Compterendu n°18.
42. Lieutenant Yohan Droit,“Mission et capacités SEAD— Une perspective de l’armée de l’air”[SEAD Mission and Capabilities —A View of the Air Force], Centre d’études stratégiques aérospatiales, September 2012, http://www.cesa.air.defense.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf']www.cesa.air.defense.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Mission_ et_capacites_SEAD-_sept_2012.pdf.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 21:19
by uclass
Image

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 21:26
by uclass
niafron wrote:The swiss air force Report ( leaked a long time ago by a Swiss newspaper, nothing confidential anymore):

The Rafale did well because it had A2G weapons and a Recce pod. On air-air it was a mixed bag. Better EW, Detection and Acquisition but inferior Engagement, well down on Aircraft Performance and higher pilot workload. Very close on SA.

On the face of it the EW is good, but not too far from the Gripen C and nowhere near the maximum score you would expect if the various tales and rumours, as told on keypubs, were actually true.

Image

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 23:37
by les_paul59
The Rafale is a good multi-role fighter, the typhoon is an air-superiority platform that is in the process of integrating some very good air to ground weapons. the jas 39c is a nice cheap platform for small air forces.

I found it interesting that the typhoon had the best score on pilot workload. Looks like they have spent a fair amount of time on man-machine interface.

In reality the typhoon and rafale are very similar. The rafale has slightly better sensors and ew, the typhoon has better kinematics and lowered pilot workload.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 12:24
by niafron
I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

So wether all these rumours about "active cancellation" are true or not, you should consider the version proposed to Switzerland maybe did not have full EW capabilites ( could also be true for the Typhoon sure).

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 13:14
by garrya
niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

I recalled that they did attack some tanks before main SEAD operation happened but AFAIK Lybia air defense is not all that impressive, and the main SEAD operation still done by F-16

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 13:56
by hornetfinn
garrya wrote:
niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

I recalled that they did attack some tanks before main SEAD operation happened but AFAIK Lybia air defense is not all that impressive, and the main SEAD operation still done by F-16


Libyan air defenses have been pretty much unchanged from what was left after Operation El Dorado Canyon in 1986. It probably was much worse as no new equipment was received during the following years and it was not a very coherent force due to civil war. It didn't perform that great in 1980s and was pretty irrelevant force in 2011. I don't think it was that good performance test for any weapon system.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 14:28
by niafron
I wasn't saying it was a test... simply, it show how confident was the french air force cause the loss of one single plane would have been a media disaster.

And the french planes circled above Libya for a while.

US and UK airstrikes were conducted only after Tomahawk missiles rained heavily... :wink:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 14:32
by uclass
niafron wrote:I don't worry about Rafale's EW...

You spoke of Libya, fact is on the first day of the operation, French air force flew above Benghazi ( and destroyed several targets) well before SEAD operations were conducted by US forces.

So wether all these rumours about "active cancellation" are true or not, you should consider the version proposed to Switzerland maybe did not have full EW capabilites ( could also be true for the Typhoon sure).

The Libyan equipment was very old, however one SA-8 did target a Rafale but was fortunately out of range, and likely operated by an imbecile.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... _RR676.pdf

In their post-war assessment, the French point at this first strike to downplay their
reliance on U.S. assets for SEAD. This assessment is correct for this particular raid,
since no losses occurred. Libyan air defenses nonetheless identified the French raid
and engaged it with an SA-8 surface-to-air missile system, which fortunately was out
of range.12 It is, however, questionable that such a risky tactic would have worked for
the whole campaign, as the French were probably not ready to take significant risks of
aircraft losses.

12 See Notin, La vérité sur notre guerre en Libye, pp. 174–175.


Also interesting to note, they didn't just send Rafales, which indicates they were just broadly confident that the air defences weren't up to scratch rather than being confident in the Rafale. A total of 4 vehicles were hit before SEAD commenced. The fact they were vehicles probably indicates they may have been well away from where defences were heaviest, like near regime-held cities.

From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to
standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan
airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out
successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft:
eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds
(for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located
some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly
destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the
Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales. This was
a rather small number by military standards, but it stopped the advance of Qaddafi’s
leading forces at the outskirts of Benghazi and probably helped prevent a massacre in
the city. Had Benghazi fallen, the outcome of the war could have been quite different.
As such, this initial strike served a critical political and strategic purpose.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 14:36
by uclass
hornetfinn wrote:
Libyan air defenses have been pretty much unchanged from what was left after Operation El Dorado Canyon in 1986. It probably was much worse as no new equipment was received during the following years and it was not a very coherent force due to civil war. It didn't perform that great in 1980s and was pretty irrelevant force in 2011. I don't think it was that good performance test for any weapon system.

Lot of it got destroyed back then too. Seem to also remember an SA-5 misguided and hit a block of flats.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 14:42
by garrya
niafron wrote:I wasn't saying it was a test... simply, it show how confident was the french air force cause the loss of one single plane would have been a media disaster.

And the french planes circled above Libya for a while.

US and UK airstrikes were conducted only after Tomahawk missiles rained heavily... :wink:

Didn't they do the strike only a few hours later ?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... y-dawn.htm

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 15:54
by niafron
If my memory is correct, the french raid started few time after noon, and the planes remained 2 or 3 hours above Libya. Then, the main missile strike occured after nightfall and several airstrikes were conducted all over the night.

Aside of the plan, the French Raid was decided in emergency as a bold move to prevent the fall of Benghazi ( it was a matter of hours...).

@Uclass

It is said an SA 8 targeted " the french raid", as you pointed it yourself, wasn't only Rafale there... There's no details about this plane and more important, what kind of mission it performed.

And if Mirage 2000 were involved as well, we don't know either if they assumed the same level of risk Rafale did.

However, the whole document is a good reading, for it point out how different are French and US philosophy about how to conduct an operation.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 20:29
by uclass
niafron wrote:If my memory is correct, the french raid started few time after noon, and the planes remained 2 or 3 hours above Libya. Then, the main missile strike occured after nightfall and several airstrikes were conducted all over the night.

Aside of the plan, the French Raid was decided in emergency as a bold move to prevent the fall of Benghazi ( it was a matter of hours...).

@Uclass

It is said an SA 8 targeted " the french raid", as you pointed it yourself, wasn't only Rafale there... There's no details about this plane and more important, what kind of mission it performed.

And if Mirage 2000 were involved as well, we don't know either if they assumed the same level of risk Rafale did.

However, the whole document is a good reading, for it point out how different are French and US philosophy about how to conduct an operation.

True but it indicates that the threat level was virtually zero. 1960s RFCLOS systems, which is basically the pin the tail on the donkey version of missile guidance. On a good day, these missiles were designed to be able to hit 1960s bombers and planes that had no ECM/ESM whatsoever, or even MAWS. Huge SA-2s with a kill radius of 120m, only managed a 2% kill rate against lumbering B-52s during the Vietnam War, and most of those kills were by simply bursting unguided missiles at altitude. The US had already figured out how to jam that radar technology 45 years ago.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2017, 17:30
by niafron
If the threat level was virtually zero, what the hell U.S.N and Royal navy launched 100 + missiles over Libya prior to any aircraft engagement?

Cause it was a discount on Tomahawks?

Honnestly, the threat was indeed low, but US and UK didn't take any chances when the french air force judged the Rafale was fine enough to make the job without any preventive strike.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2017, 18:40
by uclass
niafron wrote:If the threat level was virtually zero, what the hell U.S.N and Royal navy launched 100 + missiles over Libya prior to any aircraft engagement?

Cause it was a discount on Tomahawks?

Honnestly, the threat was indeed low, but US and UK didn't take any chances when the french air force judged the Rafale was fine enough to make the job without any preventive strike.

Quite simply because it would have been political suicide to do otherwise and because it's standard war-fighting doctrine. SEAD/DEAD always comes first. That aside, all missiles have a shelf life. :wink:

A DRFM system is easily capable of duping legacy SAM systems, especially ones that it's actually likely to have been tested against during development.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2017, 16:48
by uclass
halloweene wrote:And Mirage 2000 D do not have DRFMs...


I don't know, it seems to be you who thinks that LRIP retrofits and mods and changes on LRIP 7 F-35s are part of FRP unit costs. You know, you could just look up the meaning of LRIP.

That aside, that's exactly my point, even legacy aircraft without anything like up-to-date EW were in that flight, so using it as an example of the Rafale's capabilities is absurd.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2017, 20:00
by talkitron
Just a nice listing of facts about various versions of the Rafale:

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2017/03/ ... nched.html

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2017, 23:49
by popcorn
The Rafale is getting more expensive.

http://www.defencetalk.com/dassault-avi ... ard-69571/

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 00:29
by halloweene
Meteor integration was just announced on Rafale. I do not know if one of the Rafale going to Trilat is Meteor capable (in fact considering they are from regular Sqds it is quite improbable), but it would be a nice thing to see how fare 5th gens vs AESA/Meteor combo.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 00:55
by Scorpion1alpha
What does all this have to do with the topic?

Get back on topic or start a dedicated Rafale thread in the Modern Military Aircraft section.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 12:53
by halloweene
I'll do so if you want. Thought the topic was about F-22 and Rafale, and both (aswell as F-35) will participate to Trilat exercises in a few days. Thought it could be relevant. Anyway info taken, there is no meteor capable at Trilat.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2017, 01:44
by armedupdate
I think the fact France in Libya need US SEAD and that strike force was vulrable to SA-8 proves SPECTRA isn't some superjammer the US hasn't face. It's probably just like any other US DRFM jammer.

DRFM is good against spoofing radars, but after a while it's burnthrough ranges will be greater than blunt deceptive jamming with all the memory data and sensor fusion that can link many jamming patterns to fitler out false or not. By AMRAAM range it is likely the Raptor can't negate all the Rafale's stealth advantages to at least a decent pK for it's missiles, destroying the Rafale's ability to effectively fight, and finish off the rest with the Sidewinder.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 11:29
by niafron
SPECTRA details are classified. Period. So useless to say more, we speak of things we do not know.

Concerning the TRILAT, in fact, opponent's long range capabity isn't the most important point for the Raptors.

The true question would rather be could the Raptor defeat a Rafale or a Typhoon beyond 20 or 25 NM. Beyond 25 NM, would be difficult for the Rafale to catch the Raptor and shoot. Under 25 or 20 NM, the OSF is probably efficient enough ( and MICA is an excellent weapon).

If the standard tactic for the Raptors is to have a forward element shooting with Radar turned off and a second Raptor securing the gun lead solution with the radar on at a greater distance, would mean the AN/APG-77 got to defeat SPECTRA at maybe what? 40 NM? 50 NM?

P.S : Anyway, i guess the Rafale and the F 22 aren't supposed to confront in BVR at the TRILAT. Rather to test their skills against F 15 and T 38.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 12:06
by hornetfinn
niafron wrote:SPECTRA details are classified. Period. So useless to say more, we speak of things we do not know.

Concerning the TRILAT, in fact, opponent's long range capabity isn't the most important point for the Raptors.

The true question would rather be could the Raptor defeat a Rafale or a Typhoon beyond 20 or 25 NM. Beyond 25 NM, would be difficult for the Rafale to catch the Raptor and shoot. Under 25 or 20 NM, the OSF is probably efficient enough ( and MICA is an excellent weapon).

If the standard tactic for the Raptors is to have a forward element shooting with Radar turned off and a second Raptor securing the gun lead solution with the radar on at a greater distance, would mean the AN/APG-77 got to defeat SPECTRA at maybe what? 40 NM? 50 NM?

P.S : Anyway, i guess the Rafale and the F 22 aren't supposed to confront in BVR at the TRILAT. Rather to test their skills against F 15 and T 38.


Details for all modern EW, ESM and RWR stuff is classified, SPECTRA is not special in that sense. Based on information like Swiss evaluation, it's got one of the best 4th gen EW suites around. That doesn't mean it can play with 5th gen fighters on equal terms or even close to it.

F-22 has huge advantages against any 4th gen fighter. Latest Rafale versions are excellent 4th gen fighters, but I don't see any real advantages for it vs. F-22 in air-to-air engagement. Because F-22 has several orders of magnitude lower RCS than Rafale, SPECTRA would have to be several orders of magnitude better ESM/EW system than AN/ALR-94 and AN/APG-77 combo to level playing field in RF domain. That doesn't seem likely or even possible. AN/APG-77 is much larger than the RBE2 AESA radar in Rafale, so that makes matters even worse for Rafale. I doubt RBE2 is technologically significantly better than the current AN/APG-77. Actually I'd bet the opposite, but either case is impossible to prove. F-22 has also better T/W ratio, much higher speed and altitude capabilities. AIM-9X Block 1 and AIM-120C models are also excellent weapons, just like MICA is. I think Rafale would lose badly in non-handicapped excercise against F-22, just like any other 4th gen fighter will. I think Rafale can make things more interesting than most though as it's good overall package.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 14:30
by f-16adf
BVR the F-22 should be a consistent winner. WVR is a different story. The F-22 is not invincible (no jet is). GAF and RAF Typhoons have had their pippers on the F-22 "at times". And we know that Rafales have roughed up RAF Typhoons on many occasions. The quality of the pilot is probably most important of all in this discussion.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ag-373312/

Obviously, this is a "he said, she said" debate between the GAF and the USAF about conflicting claims. But there have been anecdotes about the RAF doing the same thing. So I highly doubt both European AF's are consistently lying concerning this subject.

Rafale has a far better Alpha than the current Typhoon (AMK or not), and it has a better ITR. STR and TWR goes to the Typhoon. TVC is the big stick for the F-22 and internal weapons carriage (meaning a lower DI). The TVC advantage may one day be negated if Rafale and Typhoon are eventually upgraded with improved engines. I think a Rafale equipped with TVC and more power (though that may be restricted somewhat due to the intake from what I have heard, don't really know or not) would be a very dangerous opponent in WVR for any jet.

But once again, no matter how good the Rafale, Typhoon, or F-22 are in ACM; if they are being piloted by an incompetent aviator, a Hornet or Viper could take them out-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 15:18
by f-16adf
One thing I can tell you about the earlier posts:

Generally, stay away from Picard about his supposed data on any jet including Rafale.


Also, refrain from XX...eagle.ru about F-14 info. (illogical spurious conclusions).

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 15:57
by mixelflick
hornetfinn wrote:
niafron wrote:SPECTRA details are classified. Period. So useless to say more, we speak of things we do not know.

Concerning the TRILAT, in fact, opponent's long range capabity isn't the most important point for the Raptors.

The true question would rather be could the Raptor defeat a Rafale or a Typhoon beyond 20 or 25 NM. Beyond 25 NM, would be difficult for the Rafale to catch the Raptor and shoot. Under 25 or 20 NM, the OSF is probably efficient enough ( and MICA is an excellent weapon).

If the standard tactic for the Raptors is to have a forward element shooting with Radar turned off and a second Raptor securing the gun lead solution with the radar on at a greater distance, would mean the AN/APG-77 got to defeat SPECTRA at maybe what? 40 NM? 50 NM?

P.S : Anyway, i guess the Rafale and the F 22 aren't supposed to confront in BVR at the TRILAT. Rather to test their skills against F 15 and T 38.


Details for all modern EW, ESM and RWR stuff is classified, SPECTRA is not special in that sense. Based on information like Swiss evaluation, it's got one of the best 4th gen EW suites around. That doesn't mean it can play with 5th gen fighters on equal terms or even close to it.

F-22 has huge advantages against any 4th gen fighter. Latest Rafale versions are excellent 4th gen fighters, but I don't see any real advantages for it vs. F-22 in air-to-air engagement. Because F-22 has several orders of magnitude lower RCS than Rafale, SPECTRA would have to be several orders of magnitude better ESM/EW system than AN/ALR-94 and AN/APG-77 combo to level playing field in RF domain. That doesn't seem likely or even possible. AN/APG-77 is much larger than the RBE2 AESA radar in Rafale, so that makes matters even worse for Rafale. I doubt RBE2 is technologically significantly better than the current AN/APG-77. Actually I'd bet the opposite, but either case is impossible to prove. F-22 has also better T/W ratio, much higher speed and altitude capabilities. AIM-9X Block 1 and AIM-120C models are also excellent weapons, just like MICA is. I think Rafale would lose badly in non-handicapped excercise against F-22, just like any other 4th gen fighter will. I think Rafale can make things more interesting than most though as it's good overall package.


^^^THIS^^^

Ultimately there will be 2 types of aircraft in future air combat: Stealth aircraft, and targets...

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 16:27
by XanderCrews
f-16adf wrote:One thing I can tell you about the earlier posts:

Generally, stay away from Picard about his supposed data on any jet including Rafale.


Also, refrain from XX...eagle.ru about F-14 info. (illogical spurious conclusions).



Yup. Picard is full of it

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 18:07
by KamenRiderBlade
XanderCrews wrote:
f-16adf wrote:One thing I can tell you about the earlier posts:

Generally, stay away from Picard about his supposed data on any jet including Rafale.


Also, refrain from XX...eagle.ru about F-14 info. (illogical spurious conclusions).



Yup. Picard is full of it

Picard is full of crap, hot air, and idiocy.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:22
by boff180
This image has appeared on Twitter this evening, supposedly from the recently ended Exercise Atlantic Trident....

Certainly shows a gun kill on a Raptor, as the HUD symbology is French, it has to be a Rafale.

https://twitter.com/ExpertDefense1/stat ... 4092077061

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:29
by Tiger05
boff180 wrote:This image has appeared on Twitter this evening, supposedly from the recently ended Exercise Atlantic Trident....

Certainly shows a gun kill on a Raptor, as the HUD symbology is French, it has to be a Rafale.

https://twitter.com/ExpertDefense1/stat ... 4092077061


Its a Twitter parody account...

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:33
by boff180
:bang: Yes just realised.....

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:34
by juretrn
That picture seems awfully familiar... It's been around the Internet for the last what? 10 years?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 20:44
by SpudmanWP
10 years.. good call (and it was an F-18, not Rafale)

http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-gu ... pdate.html

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 22:38
by gta4
How many times do I need to say this?

1) That video is 3-minute long, but the F-22 only appeared at the front hemisphere of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? The french people won't let us know.

2) That is not a kill, because that was a gunfight which requires the crosshair to overlay the target, which did not happen.

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would use other tactics (such as high AOA pointing) to gain missile lock opportunity.

F-22 adopts different tactics in different rules of engagements. That's it,end of the line.

The proof: French air force did not interpret this as a KILL.

French air force never says it had gained any dogfight victories on F-22 (some draws, one or two defeat, no victories). French officials never claimed any dogfight victories on F-22! This clearly indicates that the dogfight in the video was not a victory.

3) There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale each time without much difficulties.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:22
by nutshell
happend in 2009 god knows how many restraints the f22 had because, lets admit it, the raptors had it rough before the retrofitting programme.

I wonder if that pilot ever achieved more the 200hrs of flight prior to that excercise

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 18:53
by steve2267
f-16adf wrote:
<snip>

Rafale has a far better Alpha than the current Typhoon (AMK or not), and it has a better ITR. STR and TWR goes to the Typhoon. TVC is the big stick for the F-22 and internal weapons carriage (meaning a lower DI). The TVC advantage may one day be negated if Rafale and Typhoon are eventually upgraded with improved engines. I think a Rafale equipped with TVC and more power (though that may be restricted somewhat due to the intake from what I have heard, don't really know or not) would be a very dangerous opponent in WVR for any jet.

But once again, no matter how good the Rafale, Typhoon, or F-22 are in ACM; if they are being piloted by an incompetent aviator, a Hornet or Viper could take them out-


Uuuh... F-22 pilot comments I have read regarding "raptor losses" in WVR exercises have, as best I can recall, all universally stated the Raptor died because the pilot, almost always some young (inexperienced) stud, became too enamored with thrust vectoring. That is, TVC came into play because the pilot pissed away his energy, and tried to rely on his uber maneuverability which invoked the TVC at low airspeeds / high alpha... and that got him D E D.

My takeaway, and I think one pilot even may have specifically stated, was that the F-22 would probably have been better off without TVC. (That would have saved $$$ and weight (more $$$).)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 19:03
by f-16adf
I have already read that report. No pilot (USAF, RAF, GAF, FAF) is ever going to blame his mount....

I don't know if the Raptor would even be able to perform most of those "slow flight, high alpha" maneuvers without TV.

TV is just another tool in its toolbox.


But the big question is: Just how good in the "phone booth" would the Raptor be if it did not have Thrust Vectoring?


Take away TV, and the question becomes: can chines enable such high alpha maneuvers as do LERX (think Su-27, F/A-18C,E)???


Who knows-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 19:41
by sprstdlyscottsmn
f-16adf wrote:But the big question is: Just how good in the "phone booth" would the Raptor be if it did not have Thrust Vectoring?


Take away TV, and the question becomes: can chines enable such high alpha maneuvers as do LERX (think Su-27, F/A-18C,E)???


Who knows-

Have you seen the high AoA F-35 videos? It's hard to believe it DOESN'T have TVC. It may cause a tweak in the CLAW, but if the F-35 is any indication the "Power Loop" is about all the F-22 would really lose.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 20:06
by gta4
f-16adf wrote:I have already read that report. No pilot (USAF, RAF, GAF, FAF) is ever going to blame his mount....

I don't know if the Raptor would even be able to perform most of those "slow flight, high alpha" maneuvers without TV.

TV is just another tool in its toolbox.


But the big question is: Just how good in the "phone booth" would the Raptor be if it did not have Thrust Vectoring?


Take away TV, and the question becomes: can chines enable such high alpha maneuvers as do LERX (think Su-27, F/A-18C,E)???


Who knows-


Without Thrust Vectoring, the raptor has been tested under 80+ deg AOA. It could recover from that angle (generating sufficient nose down moment). Under 60 deg AOA, it could generate both nose up and nose down moment, making an accurate nose pointing control. It employs nose-up inertia to exceed 60 deg AOA without thrust vectoring (just like normal cobra)
F-22 high AOA.jpg

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 20:28
by gta4
Most of the F-22's high-g turns at airshows does not engage into thrust vectoring at all: F-22 rely on its aerodynamics only to perform the turn.
F-22 tvc no deflection.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_3m5Zx-6Kc

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 20:48
by f-16adf
True, but the F-35 also has a less swept wing. F-22's is at 42 degrees. It has to have a rather boxy front fuselage for the internal weapons bays.



Could the F-22 pull off a Cobra without TV? Can it perform SH type maneuvers without TV? Who knows-


Many jets have been "tested" at a much higher Alpha. VX-4 (TEST AND EVALUATION SQUADRON) tested the Tomcat at rather incredibly high Alphas. However, that did not imply that an "in service" F-14 squadron was advised to do such.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 00:31
by gta4
Well, at least I have proven that F-22 could pull to 80+deg AOA without TVC. It depend on you to judge how close it is to cobra and if F-22 could go any further.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 00:34
by gta4
True, but the F-35 also has a less swept wing. F-22's is at 42 degrees.


At subsonic, lower wing sweep is helpful to maneuvers. Higher lift curve slope, less wing tip separation, and less induced drag.

F-35 is actually the most optimized for subsonic among all 5th gen.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 03:51
by gta4
f-16adf wrote:Could the F-22 pull off a Cobra without TV? Can it perform SH type maneuvers without TV? Who knows-


It's better to pose your question in another direction:

If equipped with thrust vectoring, could Flanker or SH do the same level of maneuver as F-22 does?

Answer: no. For instance, TVC alleviated part of the workload of horizontal stab, so the size of the horizontal stab could be smaller for less drag, less damping and less moment of inertial. (check YF22 and F22 difference). If equipped with TVC, part of the horizontal stab of flanker or SH become liability as explained.

It is the same for some other control surfaces.





So, it is not fair to compare an aero design optimized for TVC flight, against an aero design optimized for non-TVC flight.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 14:21
by f-16adf
My initial comparisons were between the original Su-27 (never mentioned the far heavier bloated Su-35), F/A-18C,E. And we must remember that the F-22 also has an infinitely better thrust to weight ratio against all four.

And as a VFA-122 pilot told me last year: that the enlarged LERX on the SH does play a substantial role in its slow speed, high AOA nose pointing ability. Which seems improved to a degree over the legacy Hornet.


My question is: Without TV, which is better for slow speed, "phone booth" type maneuvers a LERX or chines?

The Raptor could never be designed with a LERX as the above mentioned jets, since an internal weapons bay (3) were required. That area was then consequently "chined" off (obviously to improve aerodynamics).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OyBCZv3iOM

At 8:36 of this video (when the Raptor initiates its turn) the stab is indeed deflected downwards. That turn takes 22 seconds or a little more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPI1uEV8FU

At 1:31 of this video, you can plainly see downward stab deflection.


TV does not seem to factor into any of the above turns.


Yet in these VERY, VERY Hard turns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9DNMI5JsM8
It is possibly that TV is being used (I don't know to what degree), since obviously these turns are to a far greater degree than the prior 2 above. And the former videos do show some downward stab deflection.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 19:31
by zero-one
f-16adf wrote:Take away TV, and the question becomes: can chines enable such high alpha maneuvers as do LERX (think Su-27, F/A-18C,E)???


My take is this, whenever you ask a hornet or SHornet pilot how good it is in ACM, they will always rave about how good the Alpha is, how incredible the sucker points its nose specially a slow speeds, its as if slow speed/high alpha is the holy grail in dog fighting, master it and you can't be beaten.

Ask a Viper pilot or even Hornet pilots who came from Viper pilots and they will always say speed, going fast is the only way to survive and dominate ACM. Viper pilots who transferred to Hornets will always complain about the lack of speed or power even if they've been trained in the art of Slow speed/high alpha ACM.

This is probably because they've gotten so used to Viper tactics that Hornet tactics seems a bit strange to them. Its like learning something your whole life and then suddenly relearning it in a different way. It's just weird and you're most likely not to prefer it.

Now with the Raptor it offers you the best of the Viper and the Hornet and the Eagle and the Tomcat and exceeds them all. So there are so many tools. Which one will you be good at? Which one will you master?

I'd love to hear an interview from a Rhino pilot who transferred to Raptors, he would probably rave about how TVC is the holy grail of ACM. However, most F-22 pilots I hear transitioned from Eagles or Vipers so naturally, they would say TVC ain't all that and going slow gets you killed, but they rave about the Raptor's power and turn rate.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 20:05
by f-16adf
Yes, I agree.

I think the reason why the legacy Hornet and the SH bleed so much speed is because of the 20 degree wing. The F-35 has a wing at 35 degrees, and I imagine it is combining the best of both worlds (Sustained Turning and high Alpha ability). I don't know if will ever match the F-16's STR or Su-27 type Cobra, but I believe it will probably come close. There are trade offs in everything.


Here is a comparison (an airshow comparison none the less):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcBlEU62e8c


and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFobWP7m48c


As in the F-16 video, at the :34 second mark; the entire turn only takes 15 seconds. The rate of this turn is incredible, just incredible. And look at his power climbs, which are simply stunning-

And Solo Turk's turn radius is probably only "slightly" larger than the Hornet's, which is insignificant (actually, you can compare them against the same sky/airfield since both are happening at Florennes).

While in the Hornet video, the turn takes about 21-22 seconds (it is over 1/3 slower than Solo Turks). And what's great about these 2 videos (once again) is the demos are happening on the same airfield background. So you get a pretty good impression/comparison. The F/A-18 is a great jet; but if I had to choose, I would probably take the rate/energy fighter.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 01:37
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Lower wing sweep will give better sustained performance all else being equal. The Hornet is simply underpowered compared to the Viper and the LERX is NOT low sweep or high AR. The massive vortexes coming off that pull it back hard and the engines can't cope.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 03:15
by f-16adf
I really would not call Lot 11 and above Hornets with the -402 engines under-powered. The A model is without a doubt, and so is the SH. The Hornet and the Tomcat (wings at 20-22 degrees) are not rate (STR) machines. And the F-14B with a light fuel load has rather impressive power.

Gerry Gallop (a VX-4 pilot) said the Hornet w/-402 motors had a pretty good (or in his words "high") thrust to weight ratio.


Even a Block 32 Viper (with a underwhelming T/W ratio) still turns quicker (STR) than any Hornet.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 04:14
by sprstdlyscottsmn
f-16adf wrote:I really would not call Lot 11 and above Hornets with the -402 engines under-powered. The A model is without a doubt, and so is the SH. The Hornet at 20 degrees and the Tomcat at 20 degrees are not rate (STR) machines. And the F-14B with a light fuel load certainly has rather impressive power.

Gerry Gallop (a VX-4 pilot) said the Hornet w/-402 motors had a pretty good (or in his words "high") thrust to weight ratio.


Even a Block 32 Viper (with a rather underwhelming T/W ratio) still turns quicker (STR) than any Hornet.

The 402 powered Hornet can nearly rate with the viper. It is less unstable, maybe that is why. I can't say for sure. Tomorrow I will grab the -402 STR data.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 04:25
by f-16adf
The -402 Hornets probably get close to the C models with the -220s. But there is no way they will ever approach a Block 30 or 40.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 04:59
by sprstdlyscottsmn
f-16adf wrote:The -402 Hornets probably get close to the C models with the -220s. But there is no way they will ever approach a Block 30 or 40.

According to the HAF F-16-1, an F110-GE-129 powered Viper with two AIM-9s, two AIM-120s, and 60% fuel will have a weight of about 25,500 and a DI of about 25. The turn performance chart for DI 0 at 15kft gives 12.8dps. The DI 50 chart at 10k gives 14.45dps and the DI 50 chart for 20k gives 10.45dps. This averages the 15k DI 50 turn at 12.45. This averaged with the DI 0 gives 12.625. All turn rates are weight adjusted per the in chart adjustment.

According to this
https://books.google.com/books?id=XCcLA ... rn&f=false
on page 30, an F404-GE-402 powered C model Hornet with two AIM-9s, two AIM-120s, and 60% fuel will have a max sustained turn at 15kft of 12.3dps.

Call me crazy, but 12.3 and 12.625 are nearly the same.

The same document mentions a .8-1.2M acceleration at 20kft of 34.6 seconds while the Viper does the same in ~23 seconds.

This Hornet has a rated T/W of 1.153 while the Viper has a 1.155. Nearly the same. So while the Viper is more unstable and therefore would have less trim drag the straight wing helps the Hornet keep up as the sea level static uninstalled T/W would imply, but the straight wing hurts it greatly in trans-sonic acceleration.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 07:14
by 35_aoa
f-16adf wrote:The -402 Hornets probably get close to the C models with the -220s. But there is no way they will ever approach a Block 30 or 40.


A slick -E with 414's or a -402 chuck is on par with a -220 -B. An -A will have an advantage if flown correctly.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 12:06
by basher54321
35_aoa wrote:
A slick -E with 414's or a -402 chuck is on par with a -220 -B. An -A will have an advantage if flown correctly.


Were your Bs detuned to extend engine life?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:17
by gta4
f-16adf wrote:Yes, I agree.

I think the reason why the legacy Hornet and the SH bleed so much speed is because of the 20 degree wing. The F-35 has a wing at 35 degrees, and I imagine it is combining the best of both worlds (Sustained Turning and high Alpha ability). I don't know if will ever match the F-16's STR or Su-27 type Cobra, but I believe it will probably come close. There are trade offs in everything.


Here is a comparison (an airshow comparison none the less):


Supersonic drag is not the same as maneuvering drag.

1. lower wing sweep is helpful to STR: higher lift curve slope, lowers need AOA, smaller reduced drag.

One obvious evidence: During the indian MMRCA competition, the STR of super hornet is 93% as good as the Typhoon despite the 20% T/W ratio difference.

2. F/A-18F could finish a 18 sec 360 turn with military power and a combat loadout, that is more impressive IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4m4li6wwNw&t=174s

check 5 min 17

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:18
by f-16adf
Spurts, no biggie here.

1. I never mentioned the Block 50 which is far, far heavier than the 30 or 40. Everybody on the net has "beaten to death" the HAF Block 50 Supplement. Solo Turk flies a Block 30 and 40. And according to most Viper pilots, the 30 has the best P's.
More of this later...

2. What speed is this occurring at? The HAF Block 50 with a DI of 50 has its best turn at 10K at around .85-.9 mach number.
If the Hornet is capable of such then it is exactly similar to the F-14B at 10K most likely occurring at .6 mach. Meaning a much slower speed.
Which again was my main point. That this is occurring at a slower speed due to the wings. If you take off the wings of the legacy Hornet, you are left with a rather small fuselage cross section (certainly nothing as big as an Eagle or Tom). And its LERX's are swept at over 80 degrees. So they are not the cause.

3.The F-14B Tomcat actually out turns the HAF Block 50 at .6 IMN at 10K. Again, what's happening at .6 mach with the Tom? The wings are at 20 or 22 degrees. Probably very similar to the Hornet's. As both the Tom and the Hornet add speed to the equation, their turn rates go down.

Look at the Tom at 10k at .85-.9 IMN, it's about 11-12 degrees a second. And it just keeps going downward. Yet, their respective DI's are not the same. The Vipers is at 50 (2 aim-9, 4 aim-120, 2 EFT pylons). The Tomcat's is actually smaller. Each of the 4 aim-7's mounted on the fuselage is a 2 (8), each aim-9 is an 8 (32), the stub pylon for 2 aim-9's is a 2 total. So we are at a DI of 42 total. Yet, the chart does not say if EFT pylons are on? Granted in the NATOPS some do factor in those pylons. And the DI for each of the EFT pylons is a 1 (2 total). So now the Tom's DI is a 44. Yet it is still 6 away from the HAF Viper which is 50.


Now as on that Tomcat fanboy site ....eagle.ru, they like to point out the fact that the Tomcat at slow speeds (.6 IMN) can out turn the HAF Block 50. Yet they forget that the Viper has a 6 to 8 higher DI. And most importantly of all there are other different Viper Blocks that are far lighter than the 50 Viper.

The Block 30 at .6 and 10K with a DI of 50 has a STR of 13.8. Equal to the Tom's, add more speed and the Block 30 leaves it in the dust. It will do the same to the Hornet, I believe.


My brother's friend in the 107th (which since early 2009 has flown the A-10C because of BRAC), for 10 years flew NSI Block 30's. He would not get into specific numbers (because of the sensitive nature), but he did say that the most challenging opponent he ever had in DACT of the entire teen series was in fact the F/A-18C at the lower end of the spectrum. He thought it would come down to the quality of the pilot.


4. The Tom and the Hornet do have good turn numbers, but again, they happen at slower speeds. Even the A-10 in the break turns remarkably fast and with a small radius. But I would not want to be in an A-10C at 250-280 knots in combat-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:21
by gta4
GE powered F-16 is a special case. It puts the biggest possible motor into the smallest possible frame. That is why seldom has a fighter dared to challenge it in energy performance:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -2012.html

"One Rafale pilot at Solenzara who has flown in the UAE remarked that one reason they want a more powerful engine is that its pilots are now used to the latest F-16 Block 60, which is essentially a small airframe built around a very big engine, and so find the Rafale underpowered by comparison. "

It would be interesting to pit a F-15E (GE powered, no CFT) against a GE powered F-16 (no CFT)

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:25
by f-16adf
What speed is the SH to the Typhoon? At slower speeds, sure. But the Typhoon is a monster above 350. There would be no comparison. Also the Typhoon has a far lower DI because of the 4 fuselage mounted medium range aams-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:27
by gta4
Well, to be honest, the weight of F-16 block50 does not increase significantly over block30 (about 1000 pound increase, 19261 vs 17994), which still makes it a pretty good dogfighter.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:28
by gta4
f-16adf wrote:What speed is the SH to the Typhoon? At slower speeds, sure. But the Typhoon is a monster above 350. There would be no comparison. Also the Typhoon has a far lower DI because of the 4 fuselage mounted medium range aams-


The india uses the peak STR tu compare, so they were not performed necessarily at the same airspeed.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:43
by 35_aoa
basher54321 wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
A slick -E with 414's or a -402 chuck is on par with a -220 -B. An -A will have an advantage if flown correctly.


Were your Bs detuned to extend engine life?


No, but a combination of the bigger canopy, and that we almost always flew them with CL tank (due to less internal fuel in the -B) made for a draggier jet that was more "Hornet-like" in performance.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:43
by f-16adf
Well here is the Typhoon: look at its turn at 6:58, about 16 seconds or less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GDFBIPuveU


And remember, the Typhoon can mount its medium range aams conformally on its fuselage. I'm willing to bet its DI is much lower than any Hornets.


People can say "yeah it's at an airshow" but all jets at airshows are flown clean and with little fuel regardless of the countries air force-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:47
by f-16adf
Go to an open house this airshow season and ask a Viper pilot. They most always will say that the Block 30 is the best performer of the group. And maybe the small tail super-light Block 10 immediately after-

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 15:52
by gta4
But I do think turning in Military power is a lot more impressive than turning in A/B,and this is combat load:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4m4li6wwNw&t=174s
check 5 min 17

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 16:16
by f-16adf
BTW, that GAO report has been available for years and can be downloaded.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 16:31
by gta4
f-16adf wrote:BTW, that GAO report has been available for years and can be downloaded.

BTW, the GAO report calculate the performance with 4000 kg fuel and 2 aim120s and 2 aim9s and pylons, 42100 lb flying weight.
If you convert it back to the same standard of Su-27, you get a pretty good performer:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510&start=30
Since you did not rebuttal my uploaded proof, I assume you agreed with me.

What I have proved:

Su-27 at 18920kg flying weight could sustain at 21 deg/sec, and that is about 1800kg total fuel weight.

To achieve similar afterburner duration, a F-15C needs only 1600kg fuel, resulting in 15200kg total flying weight. The corresponding sustained rate of turn is 22.5 deg/sec (converted from 20.5 deg/sec at 37000lb. See flight manual).

To achieve similar afterburner duration, a F-18E needs only 1500kg fuel, resulting in 15792kg total flying weight. The corresponding sustained rate of turn is 21.5 deg/sec (converted from 18 deg/sec at 42100lb. See GAO report). Note that we are using single seater 18E, not 18F. 18F is slightly heavier (32000lb vs 31500lb operation empty weight).

To achieve similar afterburner duration, a F-16C-50 needs only 936kg fuel, resulting in 9675kg total flying weight. The corresponding sustained rate of turn is 22 deg/sec (converted from 21.5 deg/sec at 22000lb. See flight manual). Note that the operating empty weight of F-16C-50 is 19261lb instead of 20000lb, where the latter is an approximated value which could not be used to calculate performance.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 16:54
by gta4
Personally, I don't compare ITR or STR directly. I like to compare the "turn rate's attenuation rate" under the same turn rate, because that is what you execute the turn in a combat scenario: match your opponent's turn rate, then out-turn it the next moment.

To get this figure, you need the drag polar and the thrust curve of some aircrafts. Luckily, the drag polar (at M0.9, more or less) is published for Mig-29, F-18, F-15, F-16, etc.

Based on my past calculation, in terms of "turn rate's attenuation rate under the same turn rate", here is an unofficial ranking:

Tier 1: GE powered F16, F/A-18C-402
Tier 2: F/A-18E
Tier 3: F15 Mig29

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 19:34
by sprstdlyscottsmn
f-16adf wrote:Spurts, no biggie here.

Nope, none at all. I wasn't concerned with speed, just rate. Being 1,500lb lighter on a block 30 (did that have the -100 or the -129? The -100 was not as strong once the speed built up.) would have only added .5 dps at most. With the two rating similarly at different speeds it means the Hornet has a tighter radius with the rate and the Viper has more zoom capability. And as I showed even with similar T/W ratings the Viper walks away in level trans-sonic acceleration. Nothing I posted was dis-ingenuous, and neither was anything you posted. I only wished to provide the numbers behind my statement that a -402 powered Hornet could rate nearly as well as a Viper. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 21:18
by basher54321
35_aoa wrote:
No, but a combination of the bigger canopy, and that we almost always flew them with CL tank (due to less internal fuel in the -B) made for a draggier jet that was more "Hornet-like" in performance.


Okay cheers 35.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 22:56
by f-16adf
According to the -100 chart (for SL): at .6 M, it has a STR of 22.7 or 22.75.

The -129 (for SL): at .6 M, is about 21.1.


Basically that's a 1.6 degree advantage. Jump up to 10k (and even with the DI factored in) a .75-.9 degree figure seems entirely possible. It may be more. However, going up to 10K should not negate that figure by more than half.

And most pilots have said that the Block 30 is the best performer of the F-16 family (it easily has the best STR), I presume they are including normal ACM altitudes and loadings.


According to Viper Force pg. 59 "Most Viper Drivers agree that the big mouth Block 30 has the best BFM performance... Lieutenant Colonel Malebranche says its the "best BFMing Viper..."

David "Spock" Youtsey (who has over 3200 F-16 hours) on pg. 20 states: "It's gotten heavier, and...it's harder to get to nine g's anymore when you yank on the stick." Implying the Block 50/52.

Here is an excerpt from a AFM article from the late 1990's:
"According to GE, the IPE (F110-GE-129) was aerodynamically identical to the original F110, but offered only a moderate increase in take-off thrust and about a 10 percent thrust increase in the Mach .8-1.2, 10.000-30,000ft. air combat zone."

Strap that on to a heavier beefed up air-frame (the Block 50), and its advantages generally start to decrease.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 23:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
the -100 chart you reference is a Block 30? What a hot rod. I was only taking the -129 chart and weight adjusting for being 1,500lb lighter when I said it would change by about .5. It may be more like .7, I don't have it in front of me right now.

BTW, I never tried to say the Blk 30 wasn't the best BFM beast.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 01:08
by gta4
I have to remind you one thing:

The difference in operational empty weights of block 30 and block 50 is only 1300 lb (17953 vs 19261),
but the difference in flying weight in Manual is 2000 lb (20000 vs 22000). That is not fair to compare without a conversion.
block 30 vs 50 weight.jpg


If you convert the performance of block 30 to 20700 lb, you need to scale the turn rate by a factor of about 0.966. And you will find that the block 50 is very very close to block 30.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 01:16
by gta4
In fact I don't know what you guys are arguing for. Is it a big deal if block 50 has a slightly lower turn rate than block 30? It still out-performs a fulcrum right? The figure below is a fulcrum with only 1500kg fuel.
mig-29 sustain turn.JPG

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 07:11
by johnwill
f-16adf wrote:Look at the Tom at 10k at .85-.9 IMN, it's about 11-12 degrees a second. And it just keeps going downward. Yet, their respective DI's are not the same. The Vipers is at 50 (2 aim-9, 4 aim-120, 2 EFT pylons). The Tomcat's is actually smaller. Each of the 4 aim-7's mounted on the fuselage is a 2 (8), each aim-9 is an 8 (32), the stub pylon for 2 aim-9's is a 2 total. So we are at a DI of 42 total. Yet, the chart does not say if EFT pylons are on? Granted in the NATOPS some do factor in those pylons. And the DI for each of the EFT pylons is a 1 (2 total). So now the Tom's DI is a 44. Yet it is still 6 away from the HAF Viper which is 50.

Now as on that Tomcat fanboy site ....eagle.ru, they like to point out the fact that the Tomcat at slow speeds (.6 IMN) can out turn the HAF Block 50. Yet they forget that the Viper has a 6 to 8 higher DI. And most importantly of all there are other different Viper Blocks that are far lighter than the 50 Viper.

The Block 30 at .6 and 10K with a DI of 50 has a STR of 13.8. Equal to the Tom's, add more speed and the Block 30 leaves it in the dust. It will do the same to the Hornet, I believe.



I think there may be a misunderstanding of Drag Index and how it is properly used. First, what is DI? It is the drag coefficient increment of the external stores and suspension equipment only, not including the basic clean airplane, multiplied by 10,000. If the drag coefficient of the external stores and suspension equipment is .0050, the DI is 50. The intended use of DI is to help in estimating cruise range for various store loadings, based on drag coefficients at 0.8 mach. Being based on an aerodynamic coefficient, it is calculated using a reference wing area. That means a particular store will have a different DI, depending on what airplane is hauling it around. If a store has a DI of 50 on an F-16 (ref wing area 300 sqft) it will have a DI of only 27 on an F-14 (ref wing area 565 sqft) if it is in a similar mount. It should be obvious that you cannot estimate total drag on different airplanes by comparing their DI.

First, DI is for cruise drag at 0.8 mach only. Second, DI for different airplanes is based on different ref wing areas. Third, drag from DI does not include clean airplane drag. And I think everyone knows it does not include induced drag in the turn.

A comment about the Viper loading of 2 EFT pylons. Vipers don't fly 2 EFT pylons without tanks.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 13:18
by f-16adf
Thanks Johnwill,

Then shouldn't both jets, if they are going to be compared fly with a similar load?
Example, 2 aim-9, 2 aim-120 for the F-16; and 2 aim-9, 2 aim-7 for the Tomcat. Or any jet?

I remember in a previous post you did in fact mention DI calculated with reference wing area.

One quick question: if it is calculated by ref wing area. Why does each aim-9 on a Tomcat have a DI of 8 (on the stub pylons), and on an F-16 it is a 5? Shouldn't the Tomcat's number be far lower?


Can you then break down the HAF Block 50 DI? From my impression, I thought I had the correct load out?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 13:31
by f-16adf
gta4, i'm not arguing with anyone here. It's a simple friendly discussion. If I was wrong on anything, I surely do not mind being corrected. I am not a fighter pilot (bad right eye); all I do is rent a -172RG a couple times a month and fly around MI and the upper mid-west.


Usually, when I do try and ask fighter pilots technical questions on the F-16 or any jet, I usually get the same line: "It's Classified-" Or I get a rather "hazy" type response.

I would love if a F-16 pilot who has flown all Blocks could give his impression here.


Also, I am not arguing with Spurts, he knows FAR, FAR, FAR, more about Aeronautical Engineering issues than I ever will. He and Johnwill are 2 EXTREMELY VALUABLE individuals to this forum. Spurts has corrected me many times, and I thank him for that. I always want to be learning-



According to the HAF manual the Block 50 is 20,000lbs with pilot, oil, unusable fuel.

The Block 30 supplement is extremely hard to come by (-1-1).

Ballpark: Block 30 is nearly 18K, Block 50 is nearly 20K.

I think both SL charts are factoring in only 2,000lbs of fuel maybe not even, which is a rather small percentage. Any less and that's almost Joker fuel? I think?

Once again, if I am wrong someone please correct me.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 17:56
by gta4
To f-16adf,

I know there is a misunderstanding about F-16 block 50 and 52+, and I know a lot of people got confused about the empty weight of block 50 and 52+. Also in the flight manual there are approximate value and accurate values.

I believe you mistook the weight of 52+ for block 50. Please double check the HAF manual:

block 50 and 52+ weight.jpg

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 18:05
by f-16adf
gta4, yes, you are right. Sorry, I didn't see that.

Maybe a good mean approximation is the average between 19,300 and 19,800 (20,000- avg. weight of pilot-200lbs) to equal around 19,500-19,600lbs??


I don't have the Block 30 manual (nobody really does I think)?


Here's it for B 50:
http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs ... hp?id=3509


Says it's for a B 50 and 21,000lbs with pilot, 2 aim-120 aams, oil, and full 20mm ammo.

Could be 21,000, -200 for pilot, -341(2) for 2 aim-120 aams, -287 for 20mm ammo.???





But as for the B 30, I don't think GD or LM would flight test it with under 2,000lbs of fuel. So maybe that one is 20,000lbs- 2,000lbs.= 18,000lbs.

Some books say that the B 30 is 17,700-17,800lbs.

That B 30 2 page summary on Avialogs says it's 17,950lbs?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 18:43
by gta4
Says it's for a B 50 and 21,000lbs with pilot, 2 aim-120 aams, oil, and full 20mm ammo.

Could be 21,000, -200 for pilot, -341(2) for 2 aim-120 aams, -287 for 20mm ammo.???


Please take a closer look. There is a small paragraph saying: these figures are approximate and can not be used for calculating performance.

The figure used for performance calculation is 19261 lb.

ALso, 19261 lb already includes a pilot:
19261.png


there is only 3.9% deviation between 19261 and 20000. Its valid to use 20000 as an approximate figure, and 19261 as the accurate figure.

In year 2007, F-16 block50 still weights 19200 lbs empty:
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2007-7821

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:06
by basher54321
There is not a set empty weight for the F-16 blocks - in operational squadrons the weights of individual aircraft vary significantly (ref jbGator)
The weight may have been accurate or approximate for the aircraft tested at the time but since then there could have been various structural changes that may have added weight, also things get added on the production line over the period of their manufacture - so potentially a 2000 lb weight difference or more could have been likely in some cases.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:18
by f-16adf
Yes, I know about that one. I was saying subtract the 200lb pilot from 20,000lb. Or in the Avialogs from 21,000lbs, and then subtract the 2 aams and 20mm ammo.


I guess the 20,000lb figure is their "rough" estimation for added/subtracted equipment.


Even with my C-172RG that I rent, you always refer to serial numbered POH Weight and Balance, because of stuff that may be added or subtracted to that particular aircraft.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:26
by johnwill
f-16adf wrote:Thanks Johnwill,

Then shouldn't both jets, if they are going to be compared fly with a similar load?
Example, 2 aim-9, 2 aim-120 for the F-16; and 2 aim-9, 2 aim-7 for the Tomcat. Or any jet?
I remember in a previous post you did in fact mention DI calculated with reference wing area.
One quick question: if it is calculated by ref wing area. Why does each aim-9 on a Tomcat have a DI of 8 (on the stub pylons), and on an F-16 it is a 5? Shouldn't the Tomcat's number be far lower?
Can you then break down the HAF Block 50 DI? From my impression, I thought I had the correct load out?


Sure, compare anything you want, just be sure your comparisons are valid. For example, using thrust/weight isn't really valid, because you don't know the thrust and you should compare (thrust - drag)/weight. You know the static sea level uninstalled thrust, but installed thrust at any flight condition will be quite different. It could be assumed mach, altitude, and inlet effects on different airplanes might affect sea level uninstalled thrust the same, but that's unlikely.

I agree you would think the Tomcat DI for AIM-9 should be lower, but the location of the missile on the airplane makes a difference. The AIM-9 on the Tomcat is located in an area of interference drag near where the wing glove and fuselage intersect, and on the F-16 it may be under the outer wing or on the tip. A tip missile has a low DI because the launcher is counted as part of the airplane drag since it is always there. Other than that, I cannot explain why.

If you are talking about the comment on EFT pylons, I haven't seen the HAF dash 1, so you may have it correct. It's not very important, is it?

These comparisons are interesting and fun academic exercises, and I enjoy reading them. Keep it up.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:36
by gta4
Since 20000 lb is an approximate value that could not be used for performance calculation, what is the point to continue using that in turn rate calculation?

Since there is no proof that the accurate value has raised significantly from 19261 lb, just use it.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:40
by f-16adf
gta4, actually Johnwill could probably help explain this the best.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 19:46
by gta4
20000 lb (approximate) and 19261 lb (accurate) do not contradict one another. 20000 is a good approximation of 19261, with only 3.9% deviation.

If we claim there could be small deviation for the same block, isn't it the same for all aircraft? So what is the standard for performance comparison?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 21:06
by basher54321
johnwill wrote:

If you are talking about the comment on EFT pylons, I haven't seen the HAF dash 1, so you may have it correct. It's not very important, is it?



The HAF F-16 has the 600 Gal tanks listed as well - although it might also not be clear that the 370 pylons are part of the actual 370 tank.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 21:52
by f-16adf
basher54321,

You and Johnwill are right. I never knew that when they jettison the 370 gallon tank the pylon goes with it. I was reading the DI index of 50 from the eagle.ru site (which the discussion about F-14 vs XYZ has interested me of late). The poster on their must have his ordinance load wrong (and I was going mainly by his numbers).

I think GD/LM just used 50 as a benchmark.

The way to get to it for an air to air load is:

2 aim-9 5(2)= 10
4 aim-120 2(4)=8, wingtip missiles = 0
2 aim-9 pylon+adapter 6(2)=12
2 aim-120 pylon+adapter 6(2)=12
2 aim-120 wingtip pylon = 0 (part of jet)
all add up to 42, and then add the centerline fuel tank pylon which has a DI of 7 and you get a total of 49.

Is this right to you?



The Tomcat's DI is either a 42 (without tank pylons) or a 44 (with tank pylons). So it is still a little lower than the Block 50 that they like to use. The Tomcat chart at 10k does not mention that it has those pylons loaded, so I guess the real DI is a 42?

Also, they forget that the Block 30 is a better performer than the 50 at 10K with a similar load. So their comparison is rather unfair.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 22:17
by sprstdlyscottsmn
You are counting six non wingtip missiles there. The DI should be eight lower as only two are carried under the wing.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2017, 22:43
by f-16adf
Spurts, I believe I have 6 total aams.

4 aim-120 (2 on wing tips have a DI = 0, 2 under wings have a DI = 8 total).
2 aim-9 (2 under wings have a DI = 10 total).

2 aim-9 launcher+adapter = 12 total.
2 aim-120 launcher+adapter=12 total.

42, then add 7 to that for the CL fuel pylon.

total=49

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2017, 00:54
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Okay, it was just the way to wrote it. Everything else was DI(number of stores) but it was backwards for the AMRAAM. Your total DI is correct.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2017, 02:55
by gta4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcBlEU62e8c
Turkish F-16 solo team do not fly block 30. The above 14-15 sec turning video is a block 40, which weights the same as block 50, but less thrust.
https://flycamera.com.pl/index.php/pl/t ... -demo-team

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2017, 04:43
by johnwill
basher54321 wrote:
johnwill wrote:

If you are talking about the comment on EFT pylons, I haven't seen the HAF dash 1, so you may have it correct. It's not very important, is it?



The HAF F-16 has the 600 Gal tanks listed as well - although it might also not be clear that the 370 pylons are part of the actual 370 tank.


When I made the comment about EFT pylons, I wondered about the possibility of HAF using 600 gallon tanks. 600 g tanks do not use an integral pylon, but use a standard weapon pylon, modified with fuel transfer plumbing. The tank can be jettisoned from the pylon, so it is possible to have EFT pylons without tanks in that case.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 18:36
by mixelflick
f-16adf wrote:basher54321,

The Tomcat's DI is either a 42 (without tank pylons) or a 44 (with tank pylons). So it is still a little lower than the Block 50 that they like to use. The Tomcat chart at 10k does not mention that it has those pylons loaded, so I guess the real DI is a 42?

Also, they forget that the Block 30 is a better performer than the 50 at 10K with a similar load. So their comparison is rather unfair.


Wow, I never know the Cat's EFT's added so little drag! Or is this written to mean just the pylons, and not the tanks too??

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 23:47
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That was just the pylons

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 11:10
by niafron
gta4 wrote:How many times do I need to say this?

1) That video is 3-minute long, but the F-22 only appeared at the front hemisphere of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? The french people won't let us know.

2) That is not a kill, because that was a gunfight which requires the crosshair to overlay the target, which did not happen.

If it was a missile fight, F-22 would use other tactics (such as high AOA pointing) to gain missile lock opportunity.

F-22 adopts different tactics in different rules of engagements. That's it,end of the line.

The proof: French air force did not interpret this as a KILL.

French air force never says it had gained any dogfight victories on F-22 (some draws, one or two defeat, no victories). French officials never claimed any dogfight victories on F-22! This clearly indicates that the dogfight in the video was not a victory.

3) There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale each time without much difficulties.


One more time at least, we french are stubborn...

1) The vid came from the OSF (Optronique secteur FRONTAL) so obviously, it show only the frontal hemisphere... So nothing to do with " french people don't want to let us know!"

2)It did happen... But if we can't even agree on that, well, i guess US eyes are better than french eyes. And in a missile fight, Rafale adopt different tactics too...

And about the interpretation of the result, i already explained my opinion. It's just an hypothesis, but for me, the Kill was cancelled cause the french pilot broke the ROE ( and it was considered a Draw on the French side, a Raptor victory on the US side).

3) No... your famous french source is just a newspaper quoting an US Spokesman...

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 12:28
by madrat
Troll much? This rudeness has been perpetuated for far too long. Let it go.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 14:05
by niafron
Was just a tribute to the long friendship between our countries...

A real troll would have been that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdPiRyYetI8

:wink:

0K, ceasefire... i take the french leave! :D

( In french: " Je file à l'anglaise!").

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 16:04
by geokav
Despite that I really like the Rafale, it can't match the F-22. Raptor plays on another level..., alone !!!

As for the F-16 blk 30, its the best dogfighter among all blocks. Despite the difference in combat weights, T/W ratios, there is also one small difference between these blocks, which I haven't read so far in this thread. It's the analog FBW...
The difference between analog FBW and digital FBW in blk50 and above, is the delay of the activation of the AoA limiter.
This gives the blk30 pilot an advantage of positioning the nose of the aircraft quicker and sharper. This has an effect only in aerial combat, as the analog FBW has other restrictions than the digital FBW...

niafron wrote:A real troll would have been that:

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdPiRyYetI8</span>

:wink:

0K, ceasefire... i take the french leave! :D

( In french: " Je file à l'anglaise!").

Lol..., this is not troll..., it's the reality... :wink:

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 19:18
by basher54321
geokav wrote:
The difference between analog FBW and digital FBW in blk50 and above, is the delay of the activation of the AoA limiter.
This gives the blk30 pilot an advantage of positioning the nose of the aircraft quicker and sharper. This has an effect only in aerial combat, as the analog FBW has other restrictions than the digital FBW...


Digital FLCS was Block 40/42.

Who said they noticed the difference in that regard?

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 14:46
by geokav
basher54321 wrote:Digital FLCS was Block 40/42.

Who said they noticed the difference in that regard?


Yes, my mistake. Digital FLCS from blk 40/42 and above.

Re: F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 13:51
by halloweene
Whatever which one won -or not- this fight (and i am one of those who releawed the video), it is not intended to say any of these planes is superior to the other one (last slide i had added).
It is just a nice video that shows two exceedingly agile planes fighting.
Btw, official results were 1-0-6 (1 victory for F-22, 0 for Rafale, 6 draws). Fox 2 were not accounted for. These results simply show how these two planes, in very different manners, are "hot potatoes" in BFM.
Greets