F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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wrightwing

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 17:04

niafron wrote:Ahahah! :D

Yes absolutely, it's perhaps a cliche, but i was damn sure it wasn't a problem for americans to name a fighter jet from a famous movie with dinosaur!

Sorry for the mistake, it wasn't to be disrespectfull. As you see, we french got our own prejudice....

Well in fact, you could enlighten me about that: who found the name and how?

You may note the naming conventions prior to the Raptor (i.e. Eagle, Fighting Falcon.) Raptors are birds of prey. At no point was the F-22 called the Velociraptor.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 12:19

Stumbled on this Rafale display which I thought was quite impressive. I can see what the Rafale proponents see in it, it does turn, climb and change direction well. Sharp pitch/roll/turn rate along with some AoA pointing ability and energy sustainment ability leads to a pretty lively fighter in close.



Further out view

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gta4

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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 15:23

To be fair Rafale's demo is in the same league as a classic Gen. 4 fighter, such as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNIcuLGC5eE


However, Rafale lacks the tuck-in turns and sharp reversals, like the 00:01, 00:17 and 00:32 mark in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euo6zlIWX_s
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marsavian

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Unread post16 Oct 2018, 12:35

Yeah, the F-16 has better sustained turning ability and the F-35 better instantaneous ability. If the F-18 generally does well against the Rafale so should the F-35, probably more so with better acceleration/SEP/less drag but don't tell Sprey or the closely coupled canard fans ;).
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charlielima223

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Unread post16 Oct 2018, 20:35

I've read fans of eurocanards claim that because the F-22 has thrust vector, it can't do your classic dogfight maintaining or gaining energy during aggressive maneuvers...

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Even if I were in the latest model of Typhoon, Rafale, or Gripen; I still wouldn't want to face off against a flight of Raptors. By the time I detect a Raptor, very likely that Raptor already saw me first. Also I wont know what the other 2 or 3 Raptors are doing. I like to think about that scene in Jurrassic Park where Alan Grant makes that little puke almost pee himself..

(time index 0:47 - 1:01)
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niafron

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Unread post17 Oct 2018, 16:30

The Rafale, at least, is an-all weather aircraft... :mrgreen:
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wrightwing

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Unread post17 Oct 2018, 18:56

niafron wrote:The Rafale, at least, is an-all weather aircraft... :mrgreen:

So is the F-22.
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charlielima223

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Unread post18 Oct 2018, 01:15

niafron wrote:The Rafale, at least, is an-all weather aircraft... :mrgreen:


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boilermaker

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Unread post18 Oct 2018, 02:30

gta4 wrote:To be fair Rafale's demo is in the same league as a classic Gen. 4 fighter, such as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNIcuLGC5eE


However, Rafale lacks the tuck-in turns and sharp reversals, like the 00:01, 00:17 and 00:32 mark in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euo6zlIWX_s

The Rafale is woefully underpowered compared to the Typhoon. THe latter with its off bore sight abilities kicks its a$$. The Rafale however is more versatile for bombing and nuke missions and has other tactical advantages which made it qualified for India.
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niafron

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Unread post19 Oct 2018, 13:17

As this thread started with an article of Air & Cosmos, there's another one about Rafale vs Typhoon:

http://www.air-cosmos.com/rafale-contre ... aits-19031

"Quid de la Royal Air Force ? Le dernier exercice en date ayant réellement opposé les deux chasseurs remonte à septembre 2009. A Solenzara, les Rafale de l’EC-1/7 « Provence » infligent une correction sans appel en combat canon (BFM) aux Typhoon britanniques. Bilan: neuf victoires pour une défaite, et encore celle-ci a-t-elle été enregistrée par un tout jeune pilote de Rafale. Peu de temps après, des affrontements hors de portée visuelle (BVR) à deux contre deux donnent des résultats largement favorables aux Rafale, selon des pilotes français ayant participé aux affrontements."

My own translation:

"What about the Royal Air force? The most recent exercise between the two fighters took place in September 2009. At Solenzara ( Translator's note: it's in Corsica, there's a french air base there), Rafale from the EC-1/7 "Provence" punished the british Typhoons in gun combat (BFM). Result : 9 victories for 1 defeat, and even, it was one of a very young french Rafale pilot. A short time later, Beyond visual range confrontations, 2 against 2, gave to the Rafale highly favourable results, according to the french pilots who took part."

And same at the ATLC...

So i do believe the Typhoon made some progress since that ( and it's pilots as well), but the fact is the Rafale had the upper hand until now in A2A combat training.

You may contest these results, but the RAF never made any statement about these exercises and never contested this version.
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gta4

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Unread post20 Oct 2018, 06:55

niafron wrote:As this thread started with an article of Air & Cosmos, there's another one about Rafale vs Typhoon:

http://www.air-cosmos.com/rafale-contre ... aits-19031

"Quid de la Royal Air Force ? Le dernier exercice en date ayant réellement opposé les deux chasseurs remonte à septembre 2009. A Solenzara, les Rafale de l’EC-1/7 « Provence » infligent une correction sans appel en combat canon (BFM) aux Typhoon britanniques. Bilan: neuf victoires pour une défaite, et encore celle-ci a-t-elle été enregistrée par un tout jeune pilote de Rafale. Peu de temps après, des affrontements hors de portée visuelle (BVR) à deux contre deux donnent des résultats largement favorables aux Rafale, selon des pilotes français ayant participé aux affrontements."

My own translation:

"What about the Royal Air force? The most recent exercise between the two fighters took place in September 2009. At Solenzara ( Translator's note: it's in Corsica, there's a french air base there), Rafale from the EC-1/7 "Provence" punished the british Typhoons in gun combat (BFM). Result : 9 victories for 1 defeat, and even, it was one of a very young french Rafale pilot. A short time later, Beyond visual range confrontations, 2 against 2, gave to the Rafale highly favourable results, according to the french pilots who took part."

And same at the ATLC...

So i do believe the Typhoon made some progress since that ( and it's pilots as well), but the fact is the Rafale had the upper hand until now in A2A combat training.

You may contest these results, but the RAF never made any statement about these exercises and never contested this version.


Again, it is the French air force claimed, and could not be verified with a third party.
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marsavian

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Unread post20 Oct 2018, 10:56

Re Typhoon vs Rafale in Corsica 2009. The ROE did not really suit the Typhoon, start at 350 knots and below 20,000 ft but bizarrely was chosen by the RAF themselves, probably through overconfidence at the time. Subsequent much later engagements have been more equal no doubt with a loosening of the ROE.

The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position.


Notice the low speed of 174 knots in the final position

http://www.air-cosmos.com/rafale-contre ... aits-19031
Image



Red Flags give a truer picture of the Typhoon's potency as a high speed high altitude stalker and Typhoons in real combat would be starting from high Mach and altitude, like the F-22, where high thrust and low transonic / supersonic drag gives them an advantage both in fuel efficiency and maneuverability in this regime as well as making their missiles go further.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ag-385173/

"Red Flag is about making life incredibly difficult for you. If you're still able to function here rather than in a benign set of conditions where most things are going for you, then I think that is probably more of an acid test of where an aircraft is," Stringer says. "How we develop, educate and train our future QWIs is fundamental to tactical success."

Sqn Ldr Pieter Severein, 11 Sqn's senior engineering officer, notes: "We did two weeks operating with the F-22 at Langley; that was a great opportunity to bring the engineers out to start working as a team. There were a lot of lessons we were able to identify working alongside the Americans that we have been able to then bring here [to Nellis] to work within the American structure."

Along with the UK's partner Eurofighter nations Germany, Italy and Spain, the RAF is steadily rolling out enhancements to its aircraft. The nine Tranche 1 Block 5 Typhoons that were deployed to Red Flag were upgraded to the latest standard with "Drop 2" software, the latest R2Q-standard radar capability and use of the Typhoon's new helmet equipment assembly. The Drop 2 upgrade process changed some of the air-to-surface weaponeering with increased hands-on-throttle-and-stick functionality for the aircraft's Rafael Litening targeting pod.

"I'm really impressed by R2Q - it's a killing radar," says pilot Flt Lt Mark Long of the predeployment sensor refinements. "You can rely that its going to host the [Raytheon AIM-120] AMRAAM until terminal guidance and that the information it's feeding the [MBDA] ASRAAM is accurate, which is exactly what we need." The weapons represent the Typhoon's respective current medium- and short-range air-to-air missile fit.

"Coming out here and working with fifth-generation fighters [the F-22], we need to realise what our place is in the fight. We have the ability to shoot far, fly fast and [cause attrition to] the leading edge. I would say Typhoon's main advantage is its performance," says Long.

The European fighter can stay on station for a long time in the combat air patrol (CAP) mission, or accept a fuel penalty by going high and fast to attain a long shot against an enemy fighter. "But that fuel penalty is more than outweighed by the effectiveness of those long-range shots," says Long. "We've had some shots taken at Mach 1.6, at 45,000ft [13,700m], and the aggressors have been surprised by the kinematics we can give the missile. We've been 'killing' quite a few people. There have definitely been raised eyebrows in the [post-mission] shot evaluation, when you're calling a very long-range shot and then calling a 'kill' on it."


Finally the Typhoons that Germany/Italy will almost certainly acquire to replace their Tornados will have the AMK maneuverability enhancements and 15% more thrust. The AMK alone increases wing lift by 25%, subsonic turn rate by 15%, AoA by 45%, roll rate by 100%. Any current low speed handling/maneuverability advantages that Rafale currently has over Typhoon will be gone.
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