F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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charlielima223

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 04:31

niafron wrote:
But once more, the Rafale got its own assets, like the OSF ( nothing of that sort for the F22), the excellents MICA ( IR or EM) and now Meteor missiles... and SPECTRA could be full of surprises...



While the F-22 doesn't have an EO tracking/ID/targeting system like the Rafale or F-35; that isn't to say the F-22 might not get one in the future...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ricks.aspx

One thing the jets could not share is the F-35’s electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), the diamond-shaped wedge under the F-35’s “chin” that provides many of the visual and infrared sensors other jets must carry in pods. Though the Air Force is considering an infrared search and track (IRST) system for the F-22 to help it better see stealthy adversaries, Merchant said, “we really don’t have the real estate” in the same location on the F-22. “We’re looking at other options.” He was unable to elaborate due to classification.


While I don't believe the F-22 could get a dedicated IRST like Typhoon, Rafale, or F-35... the F-22 does have IR sensors strategically placed around its body giving it 360degree coverage in the form of the the AN/AAR-56.

forward sensor just front of the cockpit
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Unfortunately the AN/AAR-56 is a MLD and from my understanding the precursor to the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS. Some of the hardware is already there (cameras) just not the modern software and computing components. I would think that IF they were to improve upon the AN/AA-56 of the F-22, upgrading it so it could not only act as a MLD but also give general tracking and cueing information would greatly enhance the F-22's SA.

People always talk about the engagement range of the Meteor but against a stealthy opponent like F-22 and F-35. The reality is that you're still going to end up fighting with a shorter stick, much shorter stick. If your missile can effectively engage a non stealthy target like a Su-35 at 190km (on a good day), what about when you're trying to go after a stealthy opponent? Your detection ranges are less then half and your effective engagement ranges are even shorter. Now your lauded 190km engagement range quickly falls to (just throwing a number out there) 35 or even 25km. An F-22 or F-35 armed with an AIM-120C7 would still be able to reach out further and more effectively.

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niafron

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 10:09

Well, in practice, until now, a kill beyond 20 NM is very unlikely against a fighter...

The true interest of the METEOR isn't its max range, but its NEZ and its speed ( less time to react for the target).

If really a F 22 can make chain kills at 40 or 50 NM, congratulations, you truly have an amazing weapon, but there's no proof it's possible.
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marsavian

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 13:09

Iranians claimed to have made Tomcat kills over 50nm. The AIM-120D is now in Phoenix range territory.
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niafron

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 14:10

Yes, they "claimed"... well let's admitt it's true ( and of what i know, iranian air force was pretty efficient during the war against Irak), a lucky shot is still possible.

Still, for what concern NATO's air force, the kills of the 90's were made under 20 NM.

Sure, it was 20 years ago, no many air fights since that, but if the missiles and the radars are better, the countermeasures made some progress too...

Anyway, for the NATO, we have only one account of a recent encounter with an effective kill. Was last year when a F18 of the US navy shooted down a venerable Su 22...

At 1.5 Nm ( the pilot choosed to come that close cause identification was tricky) it first missed with a sidewinder ( why?), then destroyed the target with an Amraam.

So you see, in practice, we're far from long range shooting and undodgable missiles... So perhaps long range shooting is the future of air combat, but we lack of data about this.

This is why modern fighters like the F22, the F35 or the Rafale do have a gun and short range missiles, although all that stuff is heavy and take room onboard a plane.

And it's another problem with the F 22, if the pilot have to visualy identify the target, it mean to risk a 300 millions plane in a knife fight.
Last edited by niafron on 08 Oct 2018, 14:17, edited 1 time in total.
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botsing

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 14:15

niafron wrote:If really a F 22 can make chain kills at 40 or 50 NM, congratulations, you truly have an amazing weapon, but there's no proof it's possible.

AIM-120D range is beyond that.

A passively guided AIM-120D that gets its target information from the F-22 LPI-radar will only get active just before hitting the target, this gives the targe little to no warning time before being hit.

Welcome to the integrated battlefield with stealth opponents.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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niafron

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 14:29

Yes sure, wikipedia's range...

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/aam.html

And for LPI radar, i still wonder why F 22 fans are so sure it can't be intercepted by modern EW suites like SPECTRA.

To be honnest, it's classified, so ain't got a clue, just you're so sure of yourself... it's... interesting.
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botsing

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 14:50

niafron wrote:Yes sure, wikipedia's range...

http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/aam.html

And for LPI radar, i still wonder why F 22 fans are so sure it can't be intercepted by modern EW suites like SPECTRA.

To be honnest, it's classified, so ain't got a clue, just you're so sure of yourself... it's... interesting.

I guess you missed most of the conversation about how stealth airplanes can best position themselves before taking the shot.

Great self-reflection of you though...
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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niafron

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 15:04

No, and i already admitted stealth design if well used is a huge tactical advantage.

I just point out, having the best position to shoot isn't being at long range.

In my opinion, the F 22 are nicknamed Raptors cause they hunt in pack. So as i said, i rather imagine one assuring detection at safe range and another coming close silently to deliver the kill.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 15:45

niafron wrote:F 22 are nicknamed Raptors cause they hunt in pack.


You are thinking "Raptor" as in dinosaur, not "Raptor" as in bird which is NOT a pack hunter.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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niafron

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 16:08

Ahahah! :D

Yes absolutely, it's perhaps a cliche, but i was damn sure it wasn't a problem for americans to name a fighter jet from a famous movie with dinosaur!

Sorry for the mistake, it wasn't to be disrespectfull. As you see, we french got our own prejudice....

Well in fact, you could enlighten me about that: who found the name and how?
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wrightwing

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Unread post08 Oct 2018, 17:04

niafron wrote:Ahahah! :D

Yes absolutely, it's perhaps a cliche, but i was damn sure it wasn't a problem for americans to name a fighter jet from a famous movie with dinosaur!

Sorry for the mistake, it wasn't to be disrespectfull. As you see, we french got our own prejudice....

Well in fact, you could enlighten me about that: who found the name and how?

You may note the naming conventions prior to the Raptor (i.e. Eagle, Fighting Falcon.) Raptors are birds of prey. At no point was the F-22 called the Velociraptor.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 12:19

Stumbled on this Rafale display which I thought was quite impressive. I can see what the Rafale proponents see in it, it does turn, climb and change direction well. Sharp pitch/roll/turn rate along with some AoA pointing ability and energy sustainment ability leads to a pretty lively fighter in close.



Further out view

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gta4

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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 15:23

To be fair Rafale's demo is in the same league as a classic Gen. 4 fighter, such as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNIcuLGC5eE


However, Rafale lacks the tuck-in turns and sharp reversals, like the 00:01, 00:17 and 00:32 mark in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euo6zlIWX_s
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marsavian

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Unread post16 Oct 2018, 12:35

Yeah, the F-16 has better sustained turning ability and the F-35 better instantaneous ability. If the F-18 generally does well against the Rafale so should the F-35, probably more so with better acceleration/SEP/less drag but don't tell Sprey or the closely coupled canard fans ;).
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charlielima223

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Unread post16 Oct 2018, 20:35

I've read fans of eurocanards claim that because the F-22 has thrust vector, it can't do your classic dogfight maintaining or gaining energy during aggressive maneuvers...

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Even if I were in the latest model of Typhoon, Rafale, or Gripen; I still wouldn't want to face off against a flight of Raptors. By the time I detect a Raptor, very likely that Raptor already saw me first. Also I wont know what the other 2 or 3 Raptors are doing. I like to think about that scene in Jurrassic Park where Alan Grant makes that little puke almost pee himself..

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