F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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geokav

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Unread post05 Jul 2017, 14:46

basher54321 wrote:Digital FLCS was Block 40/42.

Who said they noticed the difference in that regard?


Yes, my mistake. Digital FLCS from blk 40/42 and above.
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halloweene

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Unread post01 Sep 2017, 13:51

Whatever which one won -or not- this fight (and i am one of those who releawed the video), it is not intended to say any of these planes is superior to the other one (last slide i had added).
It is just a nice video that shows two exceedingly agile planes fighting.
Btw, official results were 1-0-6 (1 victory for F-22, 0 for Rafale, 6 draws). Fox 2 were not accounted for. These results simply show how these two planes, in very different manners, are "hot potatoes" in BFM.
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gta4

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 08:50

halloweene wrote:Whatever which one won -or not- this fight (and i am one of those who releawed the video), it is not intended to say any of these planes is superior to the other one (last slide i had added).
It is just a nice video that shows two exceedingly agile planes fighting.
Btw, official results were 1-0-6 (1 victory for F-22, 0 for Rafale, 6 draws). Fox 2 were not accounted for. These results simply show how these two planes, in very different manners, are "hot potatoes" in BFM.
Greets

1-0-6 is French "official" results, not US.
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quicksilver

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 22:39

The video suggests that the Rafale pilot -- from a neutral start -- at some point achieved positional advantage on the Raptor until they terminated what they were doing in that engagement. The Fox-Deux he called early wasn't likely valid, but by the 4:11 mark he had achieved enough nose position and in-range lat sep for the Raptor guy to make some mild out-of-plane movement to avoid a 'trigger down' call as he continued in the vertical.

BFM is not always about 'getting behind the other guy'; it's often 'letting the other guy fly out in front of you.' Seems that might have been the case here. Monsieur Rafale dude spent 250kts+ and 8K' of altitude during/after the first pass, and spent a fair amount of time after that with only two digits in the airspeed box (in some kind of quasi-roller; how do you spell 'easy target for some other shooter' en Francais?). Intentionally or otherwise, it kept his jet near the other guy's pivot point for a fair amount of the engagement. Regardless, he was probably fairly happy with himself in the debrief on that one.
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gta4

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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 06:08

1) That video is 3-minute long, but the F-22 only appeared at the front hemisphere of the Rafale for only 20 seconds. What happened for the rest of the time? The french people won't let us know.

2) French air force officials DO NOT RATE THIS as a victory, because this was a gun fight, and F-22 was not in the crosshair of Rfale.,
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 00:46

1) It may help your understanding to know that this was very likely a neutral set-up; they start from a position roughly a mile abeam (ish...can be more, and sometimes less) co-altitude, co-airspeed. After a 'turn it in' (or something similar and agreed-to in the preflight brief) they turn toward each other for a neutral pass. Sometimes the pass may be co-altitude, sometimes not; in this case it appears that there was signficant separation in the vertical at the pass, and that separation was likely intentional based on the Rafale's slice turn to start and the attendant descent to ~12K'. Technically, hard maneuvering doesnt start until they cross each others' 3/9 line (as seen from God's eye view). But, in this case, the Rafale exploited the vertical separation at the pass (gained angles) and was nose-on, inside the Raptor's turn circle at the second pass.

2) I wouldnt have called it a 'win' either, but the Rafale had clear positional advantage not long into the engagement. The pilot/jet was very good in this engagement at 'making very small cirlces' and doing alotta 'pointing.' To his credit -- though the early F-2 was probably a round at the bar -- the Rafale pilot didnt call any bad gun shots.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 07:14

Who cares? The Rafale was flying clean. It's not a realistic scenario.
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f4u7_corsair

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 02:25

And God invented the JETT button.
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gta4

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 03:22

quicksilver wrote:1) It may help your understanding to know that this was very likely a neutral set-up; they start from a position roughly a mile abeam (ish...can be more, and sometimes less) co-altitude, co-airspeed. After a 'turn it in' (or something similar and agreed-to in the preflight brief) they turn toward each other for a neutral pass. Sometimes the pass may be co-altitude, sometimes not; in this case it appears that there was signficant separation in the vertical at the pass, and that separation was likely intentional based on the Rafale's slice turn to start and the attendant descent to ~12K'. Technically, hard maneuvering doesnt start until they cross each others' 3/9 line (as seen from God's eye view). But, in this case, the Rafale exploited the vertical separation at the pass (gained angles) and was nose-on, inside the Raptor's turn circle at the second pass.


How do you know what happened even when F-22 was not in the view of Rafale? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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35_aoa

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 04:53

f4u7_corsair wrote:And God invented the JETT button.


Realistically, EJETT doesn't clean everything off your jet. Pylons stay, and in some cases, even stores remain due to safe release limitations, or just inability to release (no CADs, think FLIR pods and such)
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quicksilver

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 08:31

gta4 wrote:How do you know what happened even when F-22 was not in the view of Rafale? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Having actually flown this kind of engagement a couple thousand times (at least...and debriefed same, in detail, complete w HUD video) it’s pretty easy.

The HUD video tells you what the Rafale pilot is doing w his jet, and also provides some indication of where the Raptor is relative to the Rafale based on the sensor/weapons symbology. When the Raptor appears periodically in the video, one therefore generally knows what the Raptor had to do to arrive in that position relative where the Rafale is pointed. One also doesn’t hear anything from the Raptor pilot until the end of the engagement. I would add that the F-22 pilot appears to be a noob, and as discussed periodically around here for a long time, pilot experience is usually the biggest factor in BFM win/lose numbers.
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f4u7_corsair

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 14:03

35_aoa wrote:
f4u7_corsair wrote:And God invented the JETT button.


Realistically, EJETT doesn't clean everything off your jet. Pylons stay, and in some cases, even stores remain due to safe release limitations, or just inability to release (no CADs, think FLIR pods and such)

Yes. But besides for solo display aircraft, a "clean" configuration in exercice usually implies pylons still being mounted, in addition to captive missiles and/or data pods.

Saying the Rafale was pure clean in this engagement is a statement unlikely to be true.
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wrightwing

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 14:26

f4u7_corsair wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
f4u7_corsair wrote:And God invented the JETT button.


Realistically, EJETT doesn't clean everything off your jet. Pylons stay, and in some cases, even stores remain due to safe release limitations, or just inability to release (no CADs, think FLIR pods and such)

Yes. But besides for solo display aircraft, a "clean" configuration in exercice usually implies pylons still being mounted, in addition to captive missiles and/or data pods.

Saying the Rafale was pure clean in this engagement is a statement unlikely to be true.


It's not hard to believe that. The German air force flew completely clean Typhoons, when doing DACT with F-22s.
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f-16adf

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 15:53

Theoretically, a Rafale with 2 AAMs on the wingtips and 2 AAMs on the fuselage is not going to have a significant drag index. An F-16 with 4 AAMs has a DI of only around 20-22. And Its EFT pylons probably are not major factors either.


Rafale has good AOA capability (better than F-16, Typhoon, Gripen, but not as good as F-18), The Rafale gets to 29.9 degree of Alpha at 2.7 G. F-16 can't do that.


The Rafale pilot was probably very good.
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35_aoa

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Unread post12 Jul 2018, 06:40

f4u7_corsair wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
f4u7_corsair wrote:And God invented the JETT button.


Realistically, EJETT doesn't clean everything off your jet. Pylons stay, and in some cases, even stores remain due to safe release limitations, or just inability to release (no CADs, think FLIR pods and such)

Yes. But besides for solo display aircraft, a "clean" configuration in exercice usually implies pylons still being mounted, in addition to captive missiles and/or data pods.

Saying the Rafale was pure clean in this engagement is a statement unlikely to be true.


Don't disagree with that. My point was that in a combat scenario, i.e. what is a realistic configuration, simply hitting EJETT isn't going to make your jet "clean"......there will still be some stuff hanging off. It was in response to the comment that I quoted. But I agree, the Rafale could have been something other than slick in this scenario. I've definitely done BFM in completely slicked off FA-18's and F-16's, but it isn't always the norm, depending on your community. AF F-16 folks will not BFM unless they have all pods and tanks removed, removing pod G limits and excess drag from tanks. Eagles will BFM with tanks, once they are dry and they can reference a 9G limit. Strike Eagles will BFM at any point because they are too heavy and draggy all the time, and will lose anyway :)
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