F-22 vs Rafale dogfight results - French souce

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garrya

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 14:42

niafron wrote:I wasn't saying it was a test... simply, it show how confident was the french air force cause the loss of one single plane would have been a media disaster.

And the french planes circled above Libya for a while.

US and UK airstrikes were conducted only after Tomahawk missiles rained heavily... :wink:

Didn't they do the strike only a few hours later ?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... y-dawn.htm
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niafron

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 15:54

If my memory is correct, the french raid started few time after noon, and the planes remained 2 or 3 hours above Libya. Then, the main missile strike occured after nightfall and several airstrikes were conducted all over the night.

Aside of the plan, the French Raid was decided in emergency as a bold move to prevent the fall of Benghazi ( it was a matter of hours...).

@Uclass

It is said an SA 8 targeted " the french raid", as you pointed it yourself, wasn't only Rafale there... There's no details about this plane and more important, what kind of mission it performed.

And if Mirage 2000 were involved as well, we don't know either if they assumed the same level of risk Rafale did.

However, the whole document is a good reading, for it point out how different are French and US philosophy about how to conduct an operation.
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uclass

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Unread post20 Mar 2017, 20:29

niafron wrote:If my memory is correct, the french raid started few time after noon, and the planes remained 2 or 3 hours above Libya. Then, the main missile strike occured after nightfall and several airstrikes were conducted all over the night.

Aside of the plan, the French Raid was decided in emergency as a bold move to prevent the fall of Benghazi ( it was a matter of hours...).

@Uclass

It is said an SA 8 targeted " the french raid", as you pointed it yourself, wasn't only Rafale there... There's no details about this plane and more important, what kind of mission it performed.

And if Mirage 2000 were involved as well, we don't know either if they assumed the same level of risk Rafale did.

However, the whole document is a good reading, for it point out how different are French and US philosophy about how to conduct an operation.

True but it indicates that the threat level was virtually zero. 1960s RFCLOS systems, which is basically the pin the tail on the donkey version of missile guidance. On a good day, these missiles were designed to be able to hit 1960s bombers and planes that had no ECM/ESM whatsoever, or even MAWS. Huge SA-2s with a kill radius of 120m, only managed a 2% kill rate against lumbering B-52s during the Vietnam War, and most of those kills were by simply bursting unguided missiles at altitude. The US had already figured out how to jam that radar technology 45 years ago.
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niafron

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Unread post22 Mar 2017, 17:30

If the threat level was virtually zero, what the hell U.S.N and Royal navy launched 100 + missiles over Libya prior to any aircraft engagement?

Cause it was a discount on Tomahawks?

Honnestly, the threat was indeed low, but US and UK didn't take any chances when the french air force judged the Rafale was fine enough to make the job without any preventive strike.
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uclass

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Unread post22 Mar 2017, 18:40

niafron wrote:If the threat level was virtually zero, what the hell U.S.N and Royal navy launched 100 + missiles over Libya prior to any aircraft engagement?

Cause it was a discount on Tomahawks?

Honnestly, the threat was indeed low, but US and UK didn't take any chances when the french air force judged the Rafale was fine enough to make the job without any preventive strike.

Quite simply because it would have been political suicide to do otherwise and because it's standard war-fighting doctrine. SEAD/DEAD always comes first. That aside, all missiles have a shelf life. :wink:

A DRFM system is easily capable of duping legacy SAM systems, especially ones that it's actually likely to have been tested against during development.
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halloweene

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Unread post23 Mar 2017, 22:06

uclass wrote:
niafron wrote:If the threat level was virtually zero, what the hell U.S.N and Royal navy launched 100 + missiles over Libya prior to any aircraft engagement?

Cause it was a discount on Tomahawks?

Honnestly, the threat was indeed low, but US and UK didn't take any chances when the french air force judged the Rafale was fine enough to make the job without any preventive strike.

Quite simply because it would have been political suicide to do otherwise and because it's standard war-fighting doctrine. SEAD/DEAD always comes first. That aside, all missiles have a shelf life. :wink:

A DRFM system is easily capable of duping legacy SAM systems, especially ones that it's actually likely to have been tested against during development.


And Mirage 2000 D do not have DRFMs... Coming here to display same ignorance as on indian forums bmd?
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uclass

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Unread post24 Mar 2017, 16:48

halloweene wrote:
And Mirage 2000 D do not have DRFMs... Coming here to display same ignorance as on indian forums bmd?

I don't know, it seems to be you who thinks that LRIP retrofits and mods and changes on LRIP 7 F-35s are part of FRP unit costs. You know, you could just look up the meaning of LRIP.

That aside, that's exactly my point, even legacy aircraft without anything like up-to-date EW were in that flight, so using it as an example of the Rafale's capabilities is absurd.
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talkitron

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Unread post24 Mar 2017, 20:00

Just a nice listing of facts about various versions of the Rafale:

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2017/03/ ... nched.html
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popcorn

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Unread post24 Mar 2017, 23:49

The Rafale is getting more expensive.

http://www.defencetalk.com/dassault-avi ... ard-69571/
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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halloweene

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Unread post11 Apr 2017, 00:29

Meteor integration was just announced on Rafale. I do not know if one of the Rafale going to Trilat is Meteor capable (in fact considering they are from regular Sqds it is quite improbable), but it would be a nice thing to see how fare 5th gens vs AESA/Meteor combo.
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post11 Apr 2017, 00:55

What does all this have to do with the topic?

Get back on topic or start a dedicated Rafale thread in the Modern Military Aircraft section.
I'm watching...
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halloweene

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Unread post11 Apr 2017, 12:53

I'll do so if you want. Thought the topic was about F-22 and Rafale, and both (aswell as F-35) will participate to Trilat exercises in a few days. Thought it could be relevant. Anyway info taken, there is no meteor capable at Trilat.
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armedupdate

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Unread post15 Apr 2017, 01:44

I think the fact France in Libya need US SEAD and that strike force was vulrable to SA-8 proves SPECTRA isn't some superjammer the US hasn't face. It's probably just like any other US DRFM jammer.

DRFM is good against spoofing radars, but after a while it's burnthrough ranges will be greater than blunt deceptive jamming with all the memory data and sensor fusion that can link many jamming patterns to fitler out false or not. By AMRAAM range it is likely the Raptor can't negate all the Rafale's stealth advantages to at least a decent pK for it's missiles, destroying the Rafale's ability to effectively fight, and finish off the rest with the Sidewinder.
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niafron

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Unread post21 Apr 2017, 11:29

SPECTRA details are classified. Period. So useless to say more, we speak of things we do not know.

Concerning the TRILAT, in fact, opponent's long range capabity isn't the most important point for the Raptors.

The true question would rather be could the Raptor defeat a Rafale or a Typhoon beyond 20 or 25 NM. Beyond 25 NM, would be difficult for the Rafale to catch the Raptor and shoot. Under 25 or 20 NM, the OSF is probably efficient enough ( and MICA is an excellent weapon).

If the standard tactic for the Raptors is to have a forward element shooting with Radar turned off and a second Raptor securing the gun lead solution with the radar on at a greater distance, would mean the AN/APG-77 got to defeat SPECTRA at maybe what? 40 NM? 50 NM?

P.S : Anyway, i guess the Rafale and the F 22 aren't supposed to confront in BVR at the TRILAT. Rather to test their skills against F 15 and T 38.
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Unread post21 Apr 2017, 12:06

niafron wrote:SPECTRA details are classified. Period. So useless to say more, we speak of things we do not know.

Concerning the TRILAT, in fact, opponent's long range capabity isn't the most important point for the Raptors.

The true question would rather be could the Raptor defeat a Rafale or a Typhoon beyond 20 or 25 NM. Beyond 25 NM, would be difficult for the Rafale to catch the Raptor and shoot. Under 25 or 20 NM, the OSF is probably efficient enough ( and MICA is an excellent weapon).

If the standard tactic for the Raptors is to have a forward element shooting with Radar turned off and a second Raptor securing the gun lead solution with the radar on at a greater distance, would mean the AN/APG-77 got to defeat SPECTRA at maybe what? 40 NM? 50 NM?

P.S : Anyway, i guess the Rafale and the F 22 aren't supposed to confront in BVR at the TRILAT. Rather to test their skills against F 15 and T 38.


Details for all modern EW, ESM and RWR stuff is classified, SPECTRA is not special in that sense. Based on information like Swiss evaluation, it's got one of the best 4th gen EW suites around. That doesn't mean it can play with 5th gen fighters on equal terms or even close to it.

F-22 has huge advantages against any 4th gen fighter. Latest Rafale versions are excellent 4th gen fighters, but I don't see any real advantages for it vs. F-22 in air-to-air engagement. Because F-22 has several orders of magnitude lower RCS than Rafale, SPECTRA would have to be several orders of magnitude better ESM/EW system than AN/ALR-94 and AN/APG-77 combo to level playing field in RF domain. That doesn't seem likely or even possible. AN/APG-77 is much larger than the RBE2 AESA radar in Rafale, so that makes matters even worse for Rafale. I doubt RBE2 is technologically significantly better than the current AN/APG-77. Actually I'd bet the opposite, but either case is impossible to prove. F-22 has also better T/W ratio, much higher speed and altitude capabilities. AIM-9X Block 1 and AIM-120C models are also excellent weapons, just like MICA is. I think Rafale would lose badly in non-handicapped excercise against F-22, just like any other 4th gen fighter will. I think Rafale can make things more interesting than most though as it's good overall package.
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