F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

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basher54321

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 15:59

f-16adf wrote:Yeah, sure, it's pretty easy for the 'supposed invincible' euro canards to beat up on the MLU pratt models (which are from the early to mid 1980's). And according to Italian sources the EF and Pratt-220 F-16ADF were equals in ACM up to 10K. The EF and Rafale really only have a better ITR and marginal improvements in AOA authority.



There is actually video of an MLU gunning an EF-2000 in some kind of turning fight - and I have no doubt F-16s have wiped the floor with both F-22 & Rafale on occasion - but these exercises and videos are hopelessly irrelevant if you are trying to associate some kind of dogfight / aircraft performance with them - because firstly the point of the exercise or the setup is usually completely unknown and secondly the pilot factor is a massive factor.
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f-16adf

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 16:46

Well said Basher,

Unknown ROE, goes for any vid including the Rafale v Raptor.
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sferrin

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 18:10

rheonomic wrote:
f-16adf wrote:Sure the Rafale beats nearly all Blocks of the F-16, but it took them a considerable amount of time to catch up-
And the Rafale is a beautiful jet. :D


If only they could have made the fugly fixed probe retract...


Yeah, that ruins the lines completely. As bad as the one on the F-104 - like a giant wart on the nose of a Victoria's Secret model.
"There I was. . ."
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cavok

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 18:18

I have already spoken to a Langley Raptor pilot, and he would not get into specifics, but he did say that it has a better ITR and STR than either of them. And we all know the F-22 has much greater Alpha.


F-22 is not F-16. And DACT wasn't that huge a victory for F-22 aside ATLC. F-22 Langley pilot had any comment on that?

I remember many years ago, Rafale F2 came to Red Flag and did a stop over at Luke AFB. Rookie pilots (av 250 hours on Rafale, and coming from a A2G dedicated sqd, beat F-16 instructors 6-2)...

How about block 60? Or anti ship mission?

Antiship mission is on Rafale since F2 standard (exocet).
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eloise

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 18:26

cavok wrote:I remember many years ago, Rafale F2 came to Red Flag and did a stop over at Luke AFB. Rookie pilots (av 250 hours on Rafale, and coming from a A2G dedicated sqd, beat F-16 instructors 6-2)

Source?

cavok wrote:Antiship mission is on Rafale since F2 standard (exocet).

Tell me how is that superior to F-16 equipped with SLAM-ER, JSOW-ER, NSM or JSM? F-16 antiship weapons are significantly better.
How many exocet can Rafale carry? I have never seen it with more than 1 exocet. F-16 can carry 4 antiship missiles while still got 3 EFTs
Image

How about SEAD? Spectra is very good but Falcon edge is nothing to scoff at. Rafale doesn't have a dedicated anti radar missile, it uses AASM while F-16 can use HARM/AARGM. So F-16 will win the range/reaction time
Image

Rafale doesn't have access to an equivalent of MALD-J either.
Image
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f-16adf

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 18:53

Rafale guy could have beat the F-16 pilot. What block of F-16 was it? The under-powered Block 25 and 32? Or was it one of the GE Vipers?


Rafale is a beautiful plane and very agile, I'm not disagreeing here.


My point is that a F-16, with a bigger motor, made with 21st century materials (just like euro-canards) to save weight. Would be right up there with them.

The Canard-Delta configuration just does not offer that big of an advantage over a well thought out tailed design. I have never seen EF, Rafale, or Gripen complete a 360 degree turn in 15 seconds like a Block 30. I have never seen a euro canard perform a J-turn, Pirouette, or fly at Super Hornet type AOA.

If someone has a vid proving otherwise, ...great. I could be full of BS, maybe not. :D
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f-16adf

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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 19:01

And if a weak motor Pratt F-16ADF can hang with a EF up to 10K. Well, what do you think putting an IPE motor in it would do? An extra 5K of thrust or more would bring it to parity or even slight advantage in ACM-
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Unread post07 Oct 2017, 21:27

UAE might have already looked at the Raf - you might not need an extra 5000 lbs for your what if:

One Rafale pilot at Solenzara who has flown in the UAE remarked that one reason they want a more powerful engine is that its pilots are now used to the latest F-16 Block 60, which is essentially a small airframe built around a very big engine, and so find the Rafale underpowered by comparison.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -2012.html
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swiss

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Unread post08 Oct 2017, 12:14

eloise wrote:How many exocet can Rafale carry? I have never seen it with more than 1 exocet. F-16 can carry 4 antiship missiles while still got 3 EFTs


Looks like the Rafale can carry 4 Exocet or 4 Harpoon.

https://sites.google.com/site/blogaame/ ... IAF-14.jpg

The Pic is from this Site.

http://www.aame.in/2012/02/know-your-ra ... ghter.html
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vanshilar

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Unread post08 Oct 2017, 12:21

sferrin wrote:Yeah, that ruins the lines completely. As bad as the one on the F-104 - like a giant wart on the nose of a Victoria's Secret model.


But Picard said it was a stealth feature because the probe is angled!
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eloise

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Unread post08 Oct 2017, 17:22

swiss wrote:Looks like the Rafale can carry 4 Exocet or 4 Harpoon.

https://sites.google.com/site/blogaame/ ... IAF-14.jpg

The Pic is from this Site.

http://www.aame.in/2012/02/know-your-ra ... ghter.html

That pic include AGM-65, ALARM, Harpoon, HARMs, AGM-119, AIM-120 as weapons for Rafale. I don't think i ever seen any Rafale carry any of that. Exocet location is wrong too.
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swiss

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 07:07

eloise wrote:That pic include AGM-65, ALARM, Harpoon, HARMs, AGM-119, AIM-120 as weapons for Rafale. I don't think i ever seen any Rafale carry any of that. Exocet location is wrong too.


Maybe the Indien Airforce has some of ths Wapons? At least they have the Harpoon from what i read.

As you said, there are only Pictures about the Rafale with 1 Exocet. Interestingly there is a Pic were a Mirage carry 2 Exocet.
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cavok

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 13:28

eloise wrote:
cavok wrote:I remember many years ago, Rafale F2 came to Red Flag and did a stop over at Luke AFB. Rookie pilots (av 250 hours on Rafale, and coming from a A2G dedicated sqd, beat F-16 instructors 6-2)

Source?
https://youtu.be/DfqJYyPevvw


cavok wrote:Antiship mission is on Rafale since F2 standard (exocet).

Tell me how is that superior to F-16 equipped with SLAM-ER, JSOW-ER, NSM or JSM? F-16 antiship weapons are significantly better.
How many exocet can Rafale carry? I have never seen it with more than 1 exocet. F-16 can carry 4 antiship missiles while still got 3 EFTs
Image

How about SEAD? Spectra is very good but Falcon edge is nothing to scoff at. Rafale doesn't have a dedicated anti radar missile, it uses AASM while F-16 can use HARM/AARGM. So F-16 will win the range/reaction time
Image

Rafale doesn't have access to an equivalent of MALD-J either.
Image


About 1 exocet (and weapon "quality, which is always disputable), Rafael can carry more. the dictrina is to lert antiship capabilities to Navy trained pilots. Rafale M do not carry more than one exocet in order to prevent imbalances as much as possible for carrier operations.

About SEAD, yes, there is a weak capability here. Doctrine is using AASM or SCALP missile. The idea is to evolve towards saturating weapons like AASL. However, Spectra is a very different concept to falcon edge. It integrates many more capabilities like proposing to reroute mission "en route" etc.

Ans originally my point was (as far as i remember) that saying Rafale is filling the gap with earlier F-16 blocks is pretty a stupid statement (i do not like those d.... size games)
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eloise

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 15:41

cavok wrote:Source?
https://youtu.be/DfqJYyPevvw

Is there anything in English or an article from reputable aviation magazine? I can't understand anything in there, let alone detail about rockies and instructor pilots.
On another note, it appears to be a 2 seat F-16
cavok wrote:About 1 exocet (and weapon "quality, which is always disputable)

I find AM39 Exocet inferior to JSM in almost all important areas.
Range: 70 km vs 550 km
Radio Signature: conventional vs stealth
Infrared Signature: Rocket engine vs turbo jet engine.
Guidance: Active radar seeker vs IIR with ATA+ passive RF + 2 ways datalink
Defense against CIWS: Nothing vs Terminal high G maneuver.

cavok wrote: Rafael can carry more. the dictrina is to lert antiship capabilities to Navy trained pilots. Rafale M do not carry more than one exocet in order to prevent imbalances as much as possible for carrier operations.

I don't know if Rafale can carry more. Physically, there are space, but the pylons are not necessary wired, F-16 has space for 8 AAM, but you will never see it carry AIM-120 or AIM-9 on stations 4/6.


cavok wrote: Ans originally my point was (as far as i remember) that saying Rafale is filling the gap with earlier F-16 blocks is pretty a stupid statement

But saying Rafale will out perform any block of F-16 in any roles is also ignorant.
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f-16adf

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 22:48

Those F-16C's appear to be Block 25 or 32. Once again, as I said, they have probably a -220 engine.

It's not a Pratt -229 IPE because you can tell by the color of the turkey feathers (they are not black, which the -229 has).


So what's the big deal, a Rafale beats an F-16C that has an even worse TW ratio than the ancient MLU? Seriously, this is almost laughable.
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