F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

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zero-one

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Unread post12 May 2020, 09:25

hornetfinn wrote:[

There is no question about that. F-22 is currently in a league of its own when it comes to actual air superiority missions. It has VLO stealth, Mach 1.8+ supercruise, great maneuverability in all speed and altitudes along with very powerful radar and EW system.


Summed it up nicely right there.
At the beginning of the video, ATE said "The F-22 isn't really built to dogfight, it was built to kill its enemies with Stealth before they even detect the F-22"

while that is technically true, it is also widely translated into, it's not very good for ACM. This was taken out of an article from Business insider

If a fight were to start during an intercept like the one this week, the Russian pilot would have the huge advantage of having the F-22 in sight. What's more, the Russian Su-35 can maneuver better than the F-22.

Retired Lt. Col. David "Chip" Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, previously told Business Insider that with the F-22, "my objective wouldn't be to get in a turning fight" with an adversary. Instead, Berke said, he would use the F-22's natural advantages of stealth to avoid the dogfight.

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-f-22 ... age-2018-9

The media can easily twists words to push the narrative that they want.
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notam123

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Unread post12 May 2020, 12:07

RoE can be tricky (eye id) and lead to a WVR fight. However, até is quite balanced in his analysis i guess. Not sure that at this distance, luneberg or not would change anything.
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gta4

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Unread post13 May 2020, 16:57

deathangel wrote:Finally someone qualified does a factual review of this video:





Part 1

12:54 In BFM, F-22 came out victorious or neutral. Rafale had no victories (in french).

18:55 This video can not prove that Rafale is superior than F-22 (in french).

19:50 The french pilot admitted F-22 has better move than Rafale at higher altitude.

Part 2

2:03 The french pilot thinks it's strange that the F-22 is making it easier for the Rafale by reversing the turn, which is possibly a mistake of the F-22 pilot.

7:30 He thinks the Rafale is trying to stay away from the nose angle of the Raptor.

8:35 He thinks the Rafale is doing barrel roll to defend from the Raptor.

12:22 He noted the Rafale was low on fuel for this dogfight.

13:18 He noted the Rafale is pilot is max performing his aircraft, while the raptor pilot is not.

14:20 He noted the F-22 pilot is making that mistake again. It's like offering a free kill.

17:44 He thinks the F-22 intentionally made 2 mistakes to offer opportunities for the Rafale.

19:26 He thinks the F-22 was probably playing "red air" to offer free opportunities to the Rafale.

19:55 He thinks the F-22 has very good maneuverability and the Rafale has to ditch energy to stay away from it.
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wrightwing

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Unread post13 May 2020, 18:36

notam123 wrote:RoE can be tricky (eye id) and lead to a WVR fight. However, até is quite balanced in his analysis i guess. Not sure that at this distance, luneberg or not would change anything.

We haven't needed visual ID as a condition of ROE in a very long time. An F-22 pilot doesn't need to visually ID a target, to accurately ID a target.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post13 May 2020, 19:11

wrightwing wrote:
notam123 wrote:RoE can be tricky (eye id) and lead to a WVR fight. However, até is quite balanced in his analysis i guess. Not sure that at this distance, luneberg or not would change anything.

We haven't needed visual ID as a condition of ROE in a very long time. An F-22 pilot doesn't need to visually ID a target, to accurately ID a target.

and something like the F-35 can VID a target well into BVR ranges
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loke

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Unread post13 May 2020, 19:28

wrightwing wrote:We haven't needed visual ID as a condition of ROE in a very long time.

Damned you make me feel very old!

Wasn't there a war in the middle east a few years back where only one type of US aircraft could independently ID at BVR? I think it was the F-15 that could do it and not the others? Or is my demented brain failing me?
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post13 May 2020, 19:58

loke wrote:
wrightwing wrote:We haven't needed visual ID as a condition of ROE in a very long time.

Damned you make me feel very old!

Wasn't there a war in the middle east a few years back where only one type of US aircraft could independently ID at BVR? I think it was the F-15 that could do it and not the others? Or is my demented brain failing me?

Yeah, that was the case back in Desert Storm, thirty years ago.
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Unread post14 May 2020, 16:06

I fully believe we're in a new, better place for BVR fights and the IFF/whatever means they're using... works. Still, I wonder how (or if) that'll change when real missiles start flying.

If there's one thing all pilots fear, its fratricide. If they're 100% confident in the technology, that's one thing. OTOH, the first "mistake" that results in a blue on blue kill will invariably affect their actions that follow. That might affect ROE's, and change some of our assumptions...
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Unread post17 May 2020, 09:04

gta4 wrote:
deathangel wrote:Finally someone qualified does a factual review of this video:





Part 1

12:54 In BFM, F-22 came out victorious or neutral. Rafale had no victories (in french).

18:55 This video can not prove that Rafale is superior than F-22 (in french).

19:50 The french pilot admitted F-22 has better move than Rafale at higher altitude.

Part 2

2:03 The french pilot thinks it's strange that the F-22 is making it easier for the Rafale by reversing the turn, which is possibly a mistake of the F-22 pilot.

7:30 He thinks the Rafale is trying to stay away from the nose angle of the Raptor.

8:35 He thinks the Rafale is doing barrel roll to defend from the Raptor.

12:22 He noted the Rafale was low on fuel for this dogfight.

13:18 He noted the Rafale is pilot is max performing his aircraft, while the raptor pilot is not.

14:20 He noted the F-22 pilot is making that mistake again. It's like offering a free kill.

17:44 He thinks the F-22 intentionally made 2 mistakes to offer opportunities for the Rafale.

19:26 He thinks the F-22 was probably playing "red air" to offer free opportunities to the Rafale.

19:55 He thinks the F-22 has very good maneuverability and the Rafale has to ditch energy to stay away from it.

You don't like the Rafale, it's your choice !. But to say that the Rafale has no chance against the F22 is simply false.I think the French pilot did not want to offend the Anglo-Saxons in this version in English! In the video in French, he clearly said that the Rafale had taken the F22 and it was well placed to dominate after the 1st turn.And I do not believe that the US pilot would have intentionally put this at a disadvantage to help the Rafale. No pilot in the world will do this.Why not admit that the Rafale was better on this run !. Too difficult to admit that for you! The pilot says that you can have the best plane in the world if you make a mistake against an opponent with a 4 or 4.5 generation plane you are dead.The result which is admitted from the 2 side US / France on the exercise which is that none succeeded dominated the other proves that the Rafale is a very good plane whether you like it or not.
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Unread post17 May 2020, 13:42

gta4 wrote:
deathangel wrote:Finally someone qualified does a factual review of this video:





Part 1

12:54 In BFM, F-22 came out victorious or neutral. Rafale had no victories (in french).

18:55 This video can not prove that Rafale is superior than F-22 (in french).

19:50 The french pilot admitted F-22 has better move than Rafale at higher altitude.

Part 2

2:03 The french pilot thinks it's strange that the F-22 is making it easier for the Rafale by reversing the turn, which is possibly a mistake of the F-22 pilot.

7:30 He thinks the Rafale is trying to stay away from the nose angle of the Raptor.

8:35 He thinks the Rafale is doing barrel roll to defend from the Raptor.

12:22 He noted the Rafale was low on fuel for this dogfight.

13:18 He noted the Rafale is pilot is max performing his aircraft, while the raptor pilot is not.

14:20 He noted the F-22 pilot is making that mistake again. It's like offering a free kill.

17:44 He thinks the F-22 intentionally made 2 mistakes to offer opportunities for the Rafale.

19:26 He thinks the F-22 was probably playing "red air" to offer free opportunities to the Rafale.

19:55 He thinks the F-22 has very good maneuverability and the Rafale has to ditch energy to stay away from it.


We did not see the same video apparently (pilots comments part)
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Unread post18 May 2020, 02:07

notam123 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
deathangel wrote:Finally someone qualified does a factual review of this video:





Part 1

12:54 In BFM, F-22 came out victorious or neutral. Rafale had no victories (in french).

18:55 This video can not prove that Rafale is superior than F-22 (in french).

19:50 The french pilot admitted F-22 has better move than Rafale at higher altitude.

Part 2

2:03 The french pilot thinks it's strange that the F-22 is making it easier for the Rafale by reversing the turn, which is possibly a mistake of the F-22 pilot.

7:30 He thinks the Rafale is trying to stay away from the nose angle of the Raptor.

8:35 He thinks the Rafale is doing barrel roll to defend from the Raptor.

12:22 He noted the Rafale was low on fuel for this dogfight.

13:18 He noted the Rafale is pilot is max performing his aircraft, while the raptor pilot is not.

14:20 He noted the F-22 pilot is making that mistake again. It's like offering a free kill.

17:44 He thinks the F-22 intentionally made 2 mistakes to offer opportunities for the Rafale.

19:26 He thinks the F-22 was probably playing "red air" to offer free opportunities to the Rafale.

19:55 He thinks the F-22 has very good maneuverability and the Rafale has to ditch energy to stay away from it.


We did not see the same video apparently (pilots comments part)


I believe you should go to hospital and check your ears.
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deathangel

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Unread post18 May 2020, 15:12

gta4 wrote:
Part 1

12:54 In BFM, F-22 came out victorious or neutral. Rafale had no victories (in french).

Your French has issues..

The text says: "US officials reluctantly acknowledged the rafale was hard to contain and that in the 6 simulated fights 5 ended neutral and one ended with the rafale striking a shot (on the F22)

18:55 This video can not prove that Rafale is superior than F-22 (in french).

And if you continue reading the text says : This vdieo shows that in this scenario the Rafale can move similar to other contemporary planes . (Tactfull way to say the F22 is not superior either)

19:50 The french pilot admitted F-22 has better move than Rafale at higher altitude.

Yes he is honest, be honest too because he said also that at this altitude and lower the Rafale tends to move better than the F22..

Part 2

2:03 The french pilot thinks it's strange that the F-22 is making it easier for the Rafale by reversing the turn, which is possibly a mistake of the F-22 pilot.

100% accurate

7:30 He thinks the Rafale is trying to stay away from the nose angle of the Raptor.

Yes and the F22 is trying as hard to stay away from the nose angle of the Rafale but unfortunetaly the Rafale is higher and has a better position and maintaining his supremacy:
"The F22 is nose down and low energy GREAT! I'm going to stay up and as high as I can, because he won't be able to come after me... ...... " I'm gonna stay up and slow so I can trade altitude for energy......anytime I want"

8:35 He thinks the Rafale is doing barrel roll to defend from the Raptor.

" barreling and coming back down OFFENSIVE...." .." this way you stay behind and have the control zone".... "basicaly his barelling his way behind the F22"

12:22 He noted the Rafale was low on fuel for this dogfight.

He says it's more a preset alarm on fuel remaining, just an information than an issue, But at this moment the F22 had just dropped his invisible external fuel tanks (educated people will know what I mean ;) )


13:18 He noted the Rafale is pilot is max performing his aircraft, while the raptor pilot is not.

No he's explaining that until "knock it off" or "terminate" the war stills one and both should be max performing their plane, The hud display of the rafale indicates that as soon the pilot started to chat each other he didn't pull more than a brief 3g none of them are max performing anymore. Later on the video Ate says he thinks the US pilot wanted to end the fight from this point.


14:20 He noted the F-22 pilot is making that mistake again. It's like offering a free kill.

100% accurate

17:44 He thinks the F-22 intentionally made 2 mistakes to offer opportunities for the Rafale.

No he says the F22 was probably no more in the exercise and that the Rafale easily COULD have got 2 gun kills if he wanted it but the French pilot didn't claimed them (Such an elegant move from the french pilot, you should take example on him )

19:26 He thinks the F-22 was probably playing "red air" to offer free opportunities to the Rafale.

He thinks there's a POSSIBILITY that the F22 is playing red air and not going full throttle


19:55 He thinks the F-22 has very good maneuverability and the Rafale has to ditch energy to stay away from it.

Rafale has to ditch to stay away from it... no energy involved on this one


Well if your mum is Kelly Anne Conway I understand that you are in alternative facts and such but such bad faith......life have must been hard on you..

By the way it's not a reproach, it's just an observation
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Unread post18 May 2020, 15:43

deathangel wrote:

Well if your mum is Kelly Anne Conway I understand that you are in alternative facts and such but such bad faith......life have must been hard on you..

By the way it's not a reproach, it's just an observation


Way to flex, on your second post on the forum.
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Unread post18 May 2020, 17:30

deathangel, you better knock off the attitude.
I'm watching...
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Unread post18 May 2020, 20:43

deathangel wrote:
Well if your mum is Kelly Anne Conway I understand that you are in alternative facts and such but such bad faith......life have must been hard on you..

By the way it's not a reproach, it's just an observation


If we are just going to say that whatever the pilots say is written in stone the F-22 will always win, we have far more comments about the F-22s overwhelming superiority than the Rafale. so one observation might be that for every Rafale remark we have about 100 F-22 comments. Meaning there's one set of facts, and another set of "alternate facts" and it doesn't bode well for the Rafale.
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