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Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 06:53
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
to be fair, I don't see a reason why we should doubt their supercruise claims. Put enough thrust on a brick and it will go super sonic. just look at the F-4 :wink:

I think a Rafale and Typhoon still has substantially less drag and more thrust to weight than the F-4 even if it had a bag and 4 missiles.
Its not unreasonable to think that they can break the barrier with AB and maintain Mach 1.2 in Max mil power at certain altitudes. 40K maybe


Sure it's fair.........Jon Beesley once said even the Amraam (AIM-120) had a big impact of flight performance. In addition the weight and drag of an external fuel tank. Is so high that it consumes half of the fuel held within.


Which, is not to say the Rafale can't. Just saying we have good reason to question the claim.... :wink:

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 06:56
by Corsair1963
Also, let's say for the sake of argument. The supercruise claim of Mach 1.2 with missiles and tanks is accurate. The drag would still be considerable and even on military power. Would consume a great amount of fuel.



In short the duration would likely be very short.... :wink:

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 14:14
by linkomart
Corsair1963 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
to be fair, I don't see a reason why we should doubt their supercruise claims. Put enough thrust on a brick and it will go super sonic. just look at the F-4 :wink:

I think a Rafale and Typhoon still has substantially less drag and more thrust to weight than the F-4 even if it had a bag and 4 missiles.
Its not unreasonable to think that they can break the barrier with AB and maintain Mach 1.2 in Max mil power at certain altitudes. 40K maybe


Sure it's fair.........Jon Beesley once said even the Amraam (AIM-120) had a big impact of flight performance. In addition the weight and drag of an external fuel tank. Is so high that it consumes half of the fuel held within.


Which, is not to say the Rafale can't. Just saying we have good reason to question the claim.... :wink:


Well, the Rafale and the Typhoon carries the missiles in tandem and semi-recessed and that is a lot of less drag than (a pylon and) a AMRAAM under the wing. Also the Typhoon is slender compared to the F-35 and adding extra cross section to the F-35 punishes it more than the Eurofighter. (remember the added area is both pylon and Missile)
Also if you look at the Rafale tanks they are arearuled to minimise the cross sectional area. This minimizes supersonic drag, so for me it's highly plausible that they can go supersonic with bags and missiles, and perhaps even supercruise at some altitudes.
And... You always use AB (or a dive) to go through transonic unless you have extremely much excess power dry.... don't know of any airplane that likes to stay in the transsonic regime.

regards

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 09:05
by linkomart
A small correction to my last post, Rafale does not AFAIK carry missiles in tandem, and not semi recessed either. But it has two small pylons under the rear fuselage that probably are very low drag.

my 5 cent