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Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 03:00
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
boilermaker wrote:Chances are the French account about the 5 draws and 1 kill are accurate given that US forces will never deploy their full potential in foreign adversarial exercises like these for security reasons. By the way, back then, the Typhoon was running circles around the Rafale already, with more powerful engines and helmet cueing which the Rafale did not have and only has partially now with the cueing after launch of the Mica.

Lol, the eurofighter has never circled the Rafale and I remember that only the gun battle was allowed! So again a false rumor. In addition the result of the dogfight Rafale vs Eurofighter is 7/1 in favor of the Rafale. Here is a video of the Rafale wanting to surround another Rafale lol. https://youtu.be/dqcw3U4m8TA



Laughable and one youtube video is hardly proof of anything......... :doh:

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2019, 08:04
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
boilermaker wrote:Chances are the French account about the 5 draws and 1 kill are accurate given that US forces will never deploy their full potential in foreign adversarial exercises like these for security reasons. By the way, back then, the Typhoon was running circles around the Rafale already, with more powerful engines and helmet cueing which the Rafale did not have and only has partially now with the cueing after launch of the Mica.

Lol, the eurofighter has never circled the Rafale and I remember that only the gun battle was allowed! So again a false rumor. In addition the result of the dogfight Rafale vs Eurofighter is 7/1 in favor of the Rafale. Here is a video of the Rafale wanting to surround another Rafale lol. https://youtu.be/dqcw3U4m8TA



Laughable and one youtube video is hardly proof of anything......... :doh:
.
Yes, this video was for laughs and nothing to see. Just to say that I do not agree with some allegations. Of which the Eurofighter circling the Rafale. Or the fact that the pilot of the Raptor does not give it thoroughly! I do not think, saw in the video the F22 maneuver extremely difficult to get out of the Rafale.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2019, 12:57
by gta4
wil59 wrote:Yes, this video was for laughs and nothing to see. Just to say that I do not agree with some allegations. Of which the Eurofighter circling the Rafale. Or the fact that the pilot of the Raptor does not give it thoroughly! I do not think, saw in the video the F22 maneuver extremely difficult to get out of the Rafale.


Just give me an official claim (from French media) that Rafale used to defeat F-22 once in dogfight.
All I can find is "5 draws and 1 defeat" (from french air force) or "at least 2 defeats" (from air & cosmos magzine) for the Rafale.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2019, 07:54
by wil59
gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:Yes, this video was for laughs and nothing to see. Just to say that I do not agree with some allegations. Of which the Eurofighter circling the Rafale. Or the fact that the pilot of the Raptor does not give it thoroughly! I do not think, saw in the video the F22 maneuver extremely difficult to get out of the Rafale.


Just give me an official claim (from French media) that Rafale used to defeat F-22 once in dogfight.
All I can find is "5 draws and 1 defeat" (from french air force) or "at least 2 defeats" (from air & cosmos magzine) for the Rafale.

I do not speak of the result. This subject has been widely debated. I'm talking about the maneuverability of planes. What I see is that the Rafale is still good. And the fact that he is not an AA fighter like the F22 or the Eurofigter is all to his credit when he sees what he is doing against these fighters.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2019, 18:31
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:Yes, this video was for laughs and nothing to see. Just to say that I do not agree with some allegations. Of which the Eurofighter circling the Rafale. Or the fact that the pilot of the Raptor does not give it thoroughly! I do not think, saw in the video the F22 maneuver extremely difficult to get out of the Rafale.


Just give me an official claim (from French media) that Rafale used to defeat F-22 once in dogfight.
All I can find is "5 draws and 1 defeat" (from french air force) or "at least 2 defeats" (from air & cosmos magzine) for the Rafale.

I do not speak of the result. This subject has been widely debated. I'm talking about the maneuverability of planes. What I see is that the Rafale is still good. And the fact that he is not an AA fighter like the F22 or the Eurofigter is all to his credit when he sees what he is doing against these fighters.

HAhahahahahahah..... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

When speaking about the maneuverability, according to French Air force (published, of course, if you want the source I can scan and paste), there are 2 things that give tremendous advantage to the Raptor compared to the Rafale:

1. The nose authority
2. The energy retension

These are the 2 critical metrics in terms of maneuverability. It means F-22 is better in almost every aspect of maneuverability.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 08:30
by wil59
gta4 wrote:
wil59 wrote:Yes, this video was for laughs and nothing to see. Just to say that I do not agree with some allegations. Of which the Eurofighter circling the Rafale. Or the fact that the pilot of the Raptor does not give it thoroughly! I do not think, saw in the video the F22 maneuver extremely difficult to get out of the Rafale.


Just give me an official claim (from French media) that Rafale used to defeat F-22 once in dogfight.
All I can find is "5 draws and 1 defeat" (from french air force) or "at least 2 defeats" (from air & cosmos magzine) for the Rafale.

And so what is the problem? A French pilot on mirage 2000-9 shot an F-22 during this same exercise. And yet the 2000 is less maneuverable than the Rafale. Maneuverability is not everything in a dog fight.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 17:03
by gta4
"A French pilot on mirage 2000-9 shot an F-22 during this same exercise."

Any official claim on that? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 10:40
by zero-one
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-f ... t-veteran/

How confident would you be fighting a F-22 Raptor in within-visual range air combat?
“Obviously you have seen videos (see above). Is it going to be guns only? Is it going to be Sidewinders? If it’s gun only I don’t have any issue – if it’S Sidewinders — and he has his helmet-mounted stuff* and 9X then I’m going to be careful — I would be concerned. I definitely don’t have no concerns otherwise: it would be tougher for me because he has his 9X and mounted vizor. If I play my cards correctly there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be OK. I have questions, like what is the set-up? is it going to be ‘Butterfly’ with one close to the other one? It really depends on these situation. But guns only? Honestly, no concern. And it’s a big aircraft so it’s easy to shoot at.”


He's not concerned because:
Which aircraft have you flown DACT against?
“Against F-16, against Typhoon, against Super Hornets. Against Harrier. Against Alpha Jet. Against Mirage 2000.”

…which was the most challenging?
“The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16,

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 10:58
by boilermaker
Any credence to his claim that the Rafale consumes less in afterburner than Typhoon at Military settings? Which after burner setting? I assume that is a low after burner setting.

Also Hushkit claims the Rafale super cruises, but I do not think it does. Then again , maybe if it is in low afterburner?

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 11:03
by zero-one
boilermaker wrote:Also Hushkit claims the Rafale super cruises, but I do not think it does. Then again , maybe if it is in low afterburner?


well according to Wikipedia's source, the Rafale can Super cruise with 4 missiles and a drop tank.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071122095 ... e_nr_8.pdf

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 11:12
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
And so what is the problem? A French pilot on mirage 2000-9 shot an F-22 during this same exercise. And yet the 2000 is less maneuverable than the Rafale. Maneuverability is not everything in a dog fight.


In such exercises the ROE usually favor the weaker aircraft and in many cases by an substantial margin. Otherwise, the 4th Generation Fighter would get crushed every time. Nor, would the F-22 pilot ever be challenged. So, to get a kill against the F-22 (or F-35) is nothing to write home to mother about. As in the "Real World" the results would be every different.

Actually, boasting about such victories is in poor taste....

That is like tying the hands of Jean-Claude Van Damme behind back. Then beating him up with a baseball bat! Then walking about and boasting like you beat him in a fair fight.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 11:15
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
boilermaker wrote:Also Hushkit claims the Rafale super cruises, but I do not think it does. Then again , maybe if it is in low afterburner?


well according to Wikipedia's source, the Rafale can Super cruise with 4 missiles and a drop tank.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071122095 ... e_nr_8.pdf



I doubt that on Military Power. Especially, with an external fuel tank. As the drag is very high.... :|


The Typhoon makes similar claims. Yet, that includes supersonic tanks and semi-recessed Amraams. (Aim-120)

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 11:28
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:
I doubt that on Military Power. Especially, with an external fuel tank. As the drag is very high.... :|

The Typhoon makes similar claims. Yet, that includes supersonic tanks and semi-recessed Amraams. (Aim-120)


to be fair, I don't see a reason why we should doubt their supercruise claims. Put enough thrust on a brick and it will go super sonic. just look at the F-4 :wink:

I think a Rafale and Typhoon still has substantially less drag and more thrust to weight than the F-4 even if it had a bag and 4 missiles.
Its not unreasonable to think that they can break the barrier with AB and maintain Mach 1.2 in Max mil power at certain altitudes. 40K maybe

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 16:13
by mixelflick
Supercruise was spoke highly about in the Fighter Pilot Podcast recently. Pilot said something to the effect it was used all the time and gave the Raptor big advantages in multiple areas.

I see no reason it wouldn't do the same for Eurofighter, and yes I believe it can super-cruise with a meaningful weapons load. The Rafale I'm a bit more skeptical about. The SU-35 I think its doubtful, especially with that draggy airframe and air to air missiles the Russians employ. The J-20 possiby so, although I don't think it can super-cruise with the current engines. As for the SU-57, I believe even with current engines it can do so, albeit probably at much lower mach numbers vs. the Raptor (say, M 1.2 or 1.3).

The Raptor's 1.8 is positively eye watering. Literally half a mach faster vs. the SU-57's or Typhoon's M 1.3. Those boys at Lockheed sure did it right, along with their stable mates over at Pratt and Whitney...

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 17:05
by zero-one
@mixelflick

I agree, but, I don't think the Russians are lying about their super cruise claims as well. I mean even Saab claims that they can super cruise with their Gripen.

However I think we should look closely at their definition of super-cruise.
I believe the F-15E, some blocks of the F-16 and the F-35A can technically super cruise, although Mach 1.2 isn't considered supercruise by the USAF

So if the Flanker was flown with 6,000 lbs of fuel, 2 missiles, broke the barrier with AB and maintained Mach 1.25 in max mil then they call it a supercruiser, then thats fine, thats their definition.

Is it tactically usable super cruise, no, but they can polish up the flanker's brochure specs and you'd be surprised how many politicians and even some people in the military can buy into this type of gimmick.

I remember Boeing repeatedly labeling the F/A-18E as a 5th gen platform.
The USAF labled the F-22 as the "F/A-22" to emphasize multi role
Lockheed is lableling the F-16V with Indian specific modifications as F-21

So if Sukhoi can label the Su-35 as a "Supercruiser" then its pretty much the same thing