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Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 13:07
by element1loop
madrat wrote:Unless that 5th gen is simulating a 4th gen threat...


Get a Lear45.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 15:25
by gta4
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-an ... le.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 16:28
by zero-one
element1loop wrote:That's pretty galling as at least half of the point of exercising is to train pilots in a 5th-gen to develop and use the 5th-gen tactical approach and tools.


I'm sure they train on full up stealth mode as well. But as some F-22 pilots have said, its too easy its like clubbing baby seals. So I don't know how you can further improve on that, rather, improve what? club baby seals faster maybe?

At some point 5th gen pilots need to learn the old school tactics, Boresite missile shots, tail aspect only, maybe even using the gun

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 16:37
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Putting early F-35s in aggressor squadrons will allow 5th gens to train against a challenging adversary.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2019, 13:11
by mixelflick
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.


I wonder if India is concerned. They're about to take delivery of an aircraft that... drew even with an F-15C, from the 1980's? What happened to the much vaunted Rafale's maneuverability, avionics and especially Meteor BVR missiles?

Yes, I know pilot quality matters and matters a lot. Did the French field a bunch of guys with 100 hours in the Rafale? Something doesn't seem right. I'd love to know the ROE's..

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2019, 18:33
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.


I wonder if India is concerned. They're about to take delivery of an aircraft that... drew even with an F-15C, from the 1980's? What happened to the much vaunted Rafale's maneuverability, avionics and especially Meteor BVR missiles?

Yes, I know pilot quality matters and matters a lot. Did the French field a bunch of guys with 100 hours in the Rafale? Something doesn't seem right. I'd love to know the ROE's..

It was probably a guns only fight.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 09:08
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.


I wonder if India is concerned. They're about to take delivery of an aircraft that... drew even with an F-15C, from the 1980's? What happened to the much vaunted Rafale's maneuverability, avionics and especially Meteor BVR missiles?

Yes, I know pilot quality matters and matters a lot. Did the French field a bunch of guys with 100 hours in the Rafale? Something doesn't seem right. I'd love to know the ROE's..
.
what was the ROE, the Meteor was not qualified on the Rafale in 2014. The Rafale was' he equipped with AESA or the PESA ?. Do not make an emotional decision without knowing that it really happened. What were the conditions?

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 09:30
by wil59
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.
.
LOL. Here is another reality! But you will not accept that. Since only your point of view matters! http://airforces.fr/2009/12/20/rafale-v ... rofighter/

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 00:50
by madrat
element1loop wrote:Get a Lear45.


Negative Gs in an LJ45 would fly the wings off in no time. And good luck ejecting through a hardtop...

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 04:16
by gta4
wil59 wrote:
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.
.
LOL. Here is another reality! But you will not accept that. Since only your point of view matters! http://airforces.fr/2009/12/20/rafale-v ... rofighter/


Just check its sources:

"rumors said XXX...
I remember XXX..."

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 08:49
by boilermaker
wil59 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
gta4 wrote:https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-and-french-fighters-get-familiar-f-15c-vs-rafale.330385/
The mighty Rafale vs F-15, the result was a tie, 3:3. Claimed by French Pilot.


I wonder if India is concerned. They're about to take delivery of an aircraft that... drew even with an F-15C, from the 1980's? What happened to the much vaunted Rafale's maneuverability, avionics and especially Meteor BVR missiles?

Yes, I know pilot quality matters and matters a lot. Did the French field a bunch of guys with 100 hours in the Rafale? Something doesn't seem right. I'd love to know the ROE's..
.
what was the ROE, the Meteor was not qualified on the Rafale in 2014. The Rafale was' he equipped with AESA or the PESA ?. Do not make an emotional decision without knowing that it really happened. What were the conditions?


I am pretty sure the French would do exercises in degraded conditions. They do not wish to make the Saudi pilots more literate than them. This was a friendly exercise.

In other cases, French pilots were not happy having to train Lybian pilots to whom Mirages were being sold, with the possibility of facing them later in Chad. Rumors were that the French pilots sought to teach them with an impossibly steep learning curve to make Lybian pilots demoralized and feel scared to fly, with a French pilot asking a pair of inexperienced students to follow him in the alps where he went nap of the Earth over the ridges inducing both Libyan students to crash and die on the flank of a mountain.

Another situation was the sale of Mirages III to Argentina. The French had gutted the aircrafts of state of the art electronic and replaced it with older version of the stuff. Argentinians would ask questions about what was that empty space for, as if a box had been removed. The French mechanics would bull sht them telling them, nah, there is nothing there nor was there anything, to not worry about it.

The French are notorious for being competitive by never giving out what they know.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 12:38
by mixelflick
Oh man, I hope that isn't true.. The part about the French pilots leading them to their deaths in the alps. I can't even imagine doing something so irresponsible.

Granted, he may not have wanted them to die.. but he damn sure knew it was a possibility. Those poor pilots/their families..

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2019, 01:21
by element1loop
madrat wrote:
element1loop wrote:Get a Lear45.


Negative Gs in an LJ45 would fly the wings off in no time. And good luck ejecting through a hardtop...


Depends what you want to simulate (obviously not gun ACM) but practicing intercepts against recon , or an attacker on a bombing or missile attack profile or CAP does not require F-35s with bolt-on RCS boost to simulate it. And if not a Lear then there are are plenty of former mil jets than can do it much cheaper. The idea that you'd need to use an F-35 for this is nuts when 4th-gens and even updated 3rd-gens are all over the place.

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2019, 05:41
by sprstdlyscottsmn
you mean what Draken International does?

Re: F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2019, 11:22
by wil59
boilermaker wrote:Chances are the French account about the 5 draws and 1 kill are accurate given that US forces will never deploy their full potential in foreign adversarial exercises like these for security reasons. By the way, back then, the Typhoon was running circles around the Rafale already, with more powerful engines and helmet cueing which the Rafale did not have and only has partially now with the cueing after launch of the Mica.

Lol, the eurofighter has never circled the Rafale and I remember that only the gun battle was allowed! So again a false rumor. In addition the result of the dogfight Rafale vs Eurofighter is 7/1 in favor of the Rafale. Here is a video of the Rafale wanting to surround another Rafale lol. https://youtu.be/dqcw3U4m8TA