F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

[gta4]

Links! Not enough LINKS!

11 pages (another 20 in another thread) of some forums users claiming this and that about what happened between the F-22 and Rafale and almost not a single link to a source.

Even rafale pilots accept these facts, while some forum players don't.

Open your eyes and look at all the sources say it is 5 draw and 1 win!

There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale at least twice without much difficulties

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale"

Stop trolling. This garbage was debated ad naseum and the French sources admitted the pictures were not from the 1v1s.

In all seriousness this subject has been discussed, dissected, and analyzed so much

You know, all these sentences are completely useseless, because without the link it's just "someone on the internet said".

When somebody comes to you in 2019 and says "I just saw a video where Rafale defeated F-22, damn that F-22 is useless.", you have nothing to show him, because all the guys on the forums do is talk about it, without actually backing up their claims.

I've spent nearly 3 hours googling information about the incident and only things i found were several misleading populistic articles from some bloggers and newspapers contradicting each other and hundred-pages threads on forums like this, full of "It's clear what happened, ALL THE SOURCES state that ..." without any usable link.

What a waste of time.

troller is exactly what you do, all sources say 5 tie, 1 defeat, 1 contested victory (video). But that does not matter its date of 2009! . Your first message and you already troll on a plane !. Go to sleep, its going to rest the few neurons that you have.

No french source claims that video as a victory, because F-22 appears in the front hemisphere of Rafale for only 29 seconds in a video that lasts 3 minutes. What happened for the rest of the time? French people won't let us know.

[prof.566]

It not considered as a victory because FOX2 were not allowed. Who cares? The video is just there for the show.

[wrightwing]

It not considered as a victory because FOX2 were not allowed. Who cares? The video is just there for the show.

They weren't practicing missile shots. The only chance the Rafale has versus a Raptor, is a guns only fight. If they allowed missile shots, there wouldn't have been any ties.

[SpudmanWP]

If they allowed missile shots, there wouldn't have been a fight.

FIFY

[prof.566]

In the end we have a rare video about dogfight we should just enjoy. Should be the only impotant thing. Always remember that rule : the winner of a fight is the one that shouts the louder in debrief room.

[gta4]

Remember one thing: Other french sources say something that contradicts French air force' s "1 lose, 5 draw" claim:

At least 2 victories for Raptor, without much difficulties.

[youda008]

Your first message and you already troll on a plane !. Go to sleep, its going to rest the few neurons that you have.

Asking people to backup their claims by providing sources is trolling? Put yourself together. That is a essential requirement and rule of every sensible discussion.
The only proof that has been provided is this photo of a paper with a little French article. Where are sources to all of the claims i quoted above? Where?

[boilermaker]

Chances are the French account about the 5 draws and 1 kill are accurate given that US forces will never deploy their full potential in foreign adversarial exercises like these for security reasons. By the way, back then, the Typhoon was running circles around the Rafale already, with more powerful engines and helmet cueing which the Rafale did not have and only has partially now with the cueing after launch of the Mica.

[zero-one]

The only proof that has been provided is this photo of a paper with a little French article. Where are sources to all of the claims i quoted above? Where?

If you notice, its not hard to find articles where the USAF claims that their Raptors wiped out 144+ of their own F-15s and F-16 with 0 losses or something like that.

But whenever you get to international exercises they are very mum about it, even against Malaysia's Su-30MKMs all they said was that it was a good learning experience for both air forces. In fact it was the Malaysian media that labeled their own Flankers as "Raptor killers" although officially the RMAF said they walked away with a good dose of healthy respect for each other.

Even against the Navy, the Raptor's performance is a closely guarded secret, it was the Navy that actually published a photo of their Hornet getting a Raptor on its HUD.

So are we to believe that the F-22 can achieve ridiculously lopsided kills against fellow USAF F-15s and F-16s but can only manage a draw against Typhoons, Rafales, Flankers and Hornets.

not buying it, Personally I think the Raptor also achieves lopsided stats against everything else, but saying that outside of the debriefing room would just be adding insult to injury.

[Corsair1963]

The only proof that has been provided is this photo of a paper with a little French article. Where are sources to all of the claims i quoted above? Where?

If you notice, its not hard to find articles where the USAF claims that their Raptors wiped out 144+ of their own F-15s and F-16 with 0 losses or something like that.

But whenever you get to international exercises they are very mum about it, even against Malaysia's Su-30MKMs all they said was that it was a good learning experience for both air forces. In fact it was the Malaysian media that labeled their own Flankers as "Raptor killers" although officially the RMAF said they walked away with a good dose of healthy respect for each other.

Even against the Navy, the Raptor's performance is a closely guarded secret, it was the Navy that actually published a photo of their Hornet getting a Raptor on its HUD.

So are we to believe that the F-22 can achieve ridiculously lopsided kills against fellow USAF F-15s and F-16s but can only manage a draw against Typhoons, Rafales, Flankers and Hornets.

not buying it, Personally I think the Raptor also achieves lopsided stats against everything else, but saying that outside of the debriefing room would just be adding insult to injury.

Most exercises with the F-22 and/or F-35 are going to have ROE very lopsided against them. As without such "restrictions" they would just "crush" all comers. Which, means they wouldn't be challenged. Nor, would anybody want to fight them.....

[quicksilver]

“But whenever you get to international exercises they are very mum about...”

That’s called “diplomacy” in some quarters; “team play” in others. These are nations and players that are desired allies in many potential circumstances, and in some cases, the pilots involved often (eventually) become high level leaders not only of their services, but of their nations. Chest-beating in those circumstances is self-defeating in the long run.

Be professional...it will be remembered.

[SpudmanWP]

Not only "diplomacy", but in case you missed it, going BVR against a 5th gen from a 4th is no fun and offers "little" in the way of training when it comes to these "one-off" meetings. They pretty much stick to WVR.

[hornetfinn]

Not only "diplomacy", but in case you missed it, going BVR against a 5th gen from a 4th is no fun and offers "little" in the way of training when it comes to these "one-off" meetings. They pretty much stick to WVR.

Or they put Luneburg lenses on to 5th gen fighters to level the BVR playing field, like they did in that recent exercise (name escapes me now).

[element1loop]

Not only "diplomacy", but in case you missed it, going BVR against a 5th gen from a 4th is no fun and offers "little" in the way of training when it comes to these "one-off" meetings. They pretty much stick to WVR.

Or they put Luneburg lenses on to 5th gen fighters to level the BVR playing field, like they did in that recent exercise (name escapes me now).

That's pretty galling as at least half of the point of exercising is to train pilots in a 5th-gen to develop and use the 5th-gen tactical approach and tools.

It would make much more sense to fly 5th-gens against 5th-gens, or else against low-observable 'aware' piloted drones as much as possible. And when integrating with the 4th-gens to teach the 4th-gen pilots how to maximize their being at the "back of the bus" now, and 5th-gen pilots how to be a bus driver.

[madrat]

Unless that 5th gen is simulating a 4th gen threat...