F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

[gta4]

Time to post this again:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=54146
A computer simulation of close range gun fight between aircraft A and B.

Aircraft A: has far better conventional turn capability than fulcrums and flankers (aircraft A can acheive almost 30 deg/sec SUSTAINED!)
Aircraft B: similar to F-35, it can perform J-turn. However its other performances are inferior to F-35. Its T/W is only 0.75.

Result: Aircraft B dominates the dogfight. Even we give some initial positional advantage to A for free, this advantage is quickly neutrlized in less than one turn.

P.S.:

I know PST maneuvers can be countered by going vertical. But F-35 welcomes any jet to fight in the vertical. F-35 itself is a very tough player in the vertical.

[kimjongnumbaun]

Economy of scale...

[rheonomic]

Result: Aircraft B dominates the dogfight. Even we give some initial positional advantage to A for free, this advantage is quickly neutrlized in less than one turn.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to make such sweeping claims based on a single simulator study from 1983...

That said, don't get into a knife fight with an F-35.

[zero-one]

I didn't get that impression from LTCOL Berke. It isn't like they aren't training for worst-case WVR encounters anymore.

Thats what an informed, unbiased individual like you would say. But imagine an F-35 detractor or a media journalist that likes to publish eye catching click bates.

They can and will easily twist words like this as it serves as an opening.

Just look at some of these depressing articles

United States, as well as many of its allies, have always looked towards increasing range of combat as much as possible. Just as often, it failed, especially in the air, where technologists’ dream of destroying enemy air force before it reaches visual range remains unfulfilled to this day.

This has resulted in development of aircraft that are very heavy carry large amounts of missiles, and are far more expensive and much less reliable than aircraft with bias towards visual-range combat.

There is a real impression that the US is convinced (again) that WVR will no longer happen which is why the fighters they develop are not designed for WVR combat.

We all know this is not true, but Col. Burke, saying these things can be interpreted to support that theory.

* Future enemy threat (that currently doesn't exist) that has a smaller RCS (and is able to evade detection from the entire sensor chain web-good luck with that optical/IR spectrum ghost aircraft)

Actually I think he meant, smaller RCS than current Adversary aircraft, those things already exist.

* Opponent who is able to evade all the missiles from a flight of F-35s in Norwegian airspace (no longer a Raptor conversation)

Or whats left from the initial salvo.

For the record, I understand Burke, I simply prefer Hanche's answer more. It's a better counter to all the naysayers. Usually if you go with Burke's answer, it can bite you back.

If someone tells you that the F-35 can't dogfight and you tell him that it doesn't need to, the typical response is
vietnam VIETNAM VIETNAM

[f4u7_corsair]

Economy of scale...

Rafales produced as of early 2018: 164 (first was in 1986)

Not sure where you get that date from. Rafale A is a demonstrator, not prototype.. X-35/EAP equivalent.

but it seems to have serpentine inlet ducts to prevent fan blade exposure from frontal aspect

Indeed, plus serrated edges on panels, I suspect some coating (not the the extent of the JSF of course), aligned leading edges, fixed ramp intakes. Its shape has been entirely redesigned after the Rafale A demonstrator to include computer-calculated fuselage curves and shapes, maximizing RCS reduction (there is not a single, exact shape commonalty between Raf A and B/C/M).

No other 4th gen. aircraft sports even half of these features!

[rheonomic]

France has a huge edge over every other nation in terms of avionics and missile design and production, save the US and UK/Germany/Italy partners. The MICA and Meteor are superb A2A missiles, and the latest Rafale variants are one of the only 4th Gen aircraft that have sensor-fusion/avionics integration at that level.

In terms of being able to create a complete fighter aircraft on their own, I'd say the French are second only to the US.

[rheonomic]

Largely agree on all points.

UK has the technology, but I wonder if they could do an entire program on their own (largely political here, but there's probably some loss of capability given the way they've abused their aerospace industry). I'm confident in saying that the Germans, Italians, and Spanish could not.

[mixelflick]

Economy of scale...

Rafales produced as of early 2018: 164 (first was in 1986)

Not sure where you get that date from. Rafale A is a demonstrator, not prototype.. X-35/EAP equivalent.

but it seems to have serpentine inlet ducts to prevent fan blade exposure from frontal aspect

Indeed, plus serrated edges on panels, I suspect some coating (not the the extent of the JSF of course), aligned leading edges, fixed ramp intakes. Its shape has been entirely redesigned after the Rafale A demonstrator to include computer-calculated fuselage curves and shapes, maximizing RCS reduction (there is not a single, exact shape commonalty between Raf A and B/C/M).

No other 4th gen. aircraft sports even half of these features!

Does not the Typhoon sport reduced RCS, Meteor, ASRAAM and performance levels in the same league? Don't get me wrong: I think the Rafale is a fine aircraft, likely with the best E/W fit (third only to the F-35/22). I'd say the Typhoon has the edge in kinematics though..

[talkitron]

UK has the technology, but I wonder if they could do an entire program on their own (largely political here, but there's probably some loss of capability given the way they've abused their aerospace industry). I'm confident in saying that the Germans, Italians, and Spanish could not.

The UK is facing immense cuts in procurement based on the existing, 2015 or so plan if they do not ramp spending up to 2.5% of GDP. The previous plan was based on unrealistic assumptions about cost savings and economic growth. Some UK media claim the prime minister and defense minister are in a power struggle over whether to cut procurement or raise spending. Anyway, in this funding climate getting R&D funds to develop a brand new fighter without partners seems like a long shot.

[f4u7_corsair]

Does not the Typhoon sport reduced RCS, Meteor, ASRAAM and performance levels in the same league? Don't get me wrong: I think the Rafale is a fine aircraft, likely with the best E/W fit (third only to the F-35/22). I'd say the Typhoon has the edge in kinematics though..

I don't believe it has serrated panel edges, and some features like the variable intake aren't too beneficial for reduced RCS. Unlike Rafale, and as far as I know, its shape has not been designed with RCS reduction particularly in mind.

It indeed benefits from the Meteor, since it is fielded on both aircraft. From my understanding, ASRAAM is a bit shorter legged than the MICA, which even with its IIR head is designed to be employed as a true BVRAAM, and compares very well to the AMRAAM (until the latest Charlie 7 and most importantly Delta variants were designed - MICA NG is ongoing development to close the gap).

The Typhoon is indeed a dragster; it'll be found usually higher and faster than a Rafale, especially w/ its centerline tank loadout. It is the result of its interceptor design philosophy, and I have to admit astounds most Raf/M2000 pilots I've talked to.

When it comes to maneuvring though, Rafale fares significantly better, mostly thanks to its flight controls. It shows in displays, but most importantly in ACM..

[marsavian]

The Typhoon shape was tuned to lower stealth in tests at BAE Warton in the 1990s and they did claim on release it was second only to the F-22 in stealth so RCS reduction was part of the design albeit a secondary/tertiary priority. Whether this second to F-22 comparison also included Rafale and Super Hornet is debatable as they were all released at the same time so may not have been included in the comparison and how would they know anyway.

What about the Rafale flight controls makes it superior to the Typhoon in maneuvring ?

[rheonomic]

they [...] claim on release it was second only to the F-22 in stealth

Lol.

[youda008]

Links! Not enough LINKS!

11 pages (another 20 in another thread) of some forums users claiming this and that about what happened between the F-22 and Rafale and almost not a single link to a source.

Even rafale pilots accept these facts, while some forum players don't.

Open your eyes and look at all the sources say it is 5 draw and 1 win!

There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale at least twice without much difficulties

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale"

Stop trolling. This garbage was debated ad naseum and the French sources admitted the pictures were not from the 1v1s.

In all seriousness this subject has been discussed, dissected, and analyzed so much

You know, all these sentences are completely useseless, because without the link it's just "someone on the internet said".

When somebody comes to you in 2019 and says "I just saw a video where Rafale defeated F-22, damn that F-22 is useless.", you have nothing to show him, because all the guys on the forums do is talk about it, without actually backing up their claims.

I've spent nearly 3 hours googling information about the incident and only things i found were several misleading populistic articles from some bloggers and newspapers contradicting each other and hundred-pages threads on forums like this, full of "It's clear what happened, ALL THE SOURCES state that ..." without any usable link.

What a waste of time.

[wil59]

Links! Not enough LINKS!

11 pages (another 20 in another thread) of some forums users claiming this and that about what happened between the F-22 and Rafale and almost not a single link to a source.

Even rafale pilots accept these facts, while some forum players don't.

Open your eyes and look at all the sources say it is 5 draw and 1 win!

There are other FRENCH sources claiming that F-22 used gun to kill the Rafale at least twice without much difficulties

I have other french sources claiming that the F-22 "come out on top for most dogfight situations against rafale"

Stop trolling. This garbage was debated ad naseum and the French sources admitted the pictures were not from the 1v1s.

In all seriousness this subject has been discussed, dissected, and analyzed so much

You know, all these sentences are completely useseless, because without the link it's just "someone on the internet said".

When somebody comes to you in 2019 and says "I just saw a video where Rafale defeated F-22, damn that F-22 is useless.", you have nothing to show him, because all the guys on the forums do is talk about it, without actually backing up their claims.

I've spent nearly 3 hours googling information about the incident and only things i found were several misleading populistic articles from some bloggers and newspapers contradicting each other and hundred-pages threads on forums like this, full of "It's clear what happened, ALL THE SOURCES state that ..." without any usable link.

What a waste of time.

troller is exactly what you do, all sources say 5 tie, 1 defeat, 1 contested victory (video). But that does not matter its date of 2009! . Your first message and you already troll on a plane !. Go to sleep, its going to rest the few neurons that you have.

[gta4]

all sources say 5 tie, 1 defeat, 1 contested victory (video)

Wrong. All french sources says 5 tie, 1 defeat, no victory (From French pilots interview).
Or all defeats (From a French magazine)