F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post22 Jan 2018, 03:54

No worries
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swiss

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 16:09

Interesting Artikel about F-22 Dogfights vs Rafale, EF etc.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... shot-26318
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charlielima223

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 18:16



I find that women do the best "eye roll"

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You gotta love how over the top Krysten Ritter does it :-D

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In all seriousness this subject has been discussed, dissected, and analyzed so much that there is no reason to have an article done by the hack David Axe posted here. This is like resurrecting the discussion about the infamous Red Flag exercise between the F-22 and Typhoon where allegedly the Typhoon had "Raptor Salad" only to beat it to death again. This article provided no substance or analysis to the event.
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:21

Amazing that after all this time, this guy still doesn’t have all the facts, yet still reposts this sensationalized nonsense. Fightin' Eagle guys were laughing their heads off for years (and went on to earn the Raytheon Trophy in 2010).
I'm watching...
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swiss

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:42

charlielima223 wrote:I find that women do the best "eye roll"

Image


Well my favorite is also Cersei Lennister. :wink:
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vilters

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:49

Without ROE's?
A Pair of Rafales will NEVER come closer then 70-50 NM to a pair of F-22.

With ROE's? Who wrote the ROE's? LOL.
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gta4

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 02:35

Found an interesting thing:

No matter how many times F-22 won dogfights, if it lose once, it's a defeat.
No matter how many times Rafi/Tiffi loses dogfights to F-22, if it won once, it's a victory.

They have no idea what exchange ratio is, and they refuse to talk about exchange ratio.
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gta4

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 02:44

Found an interesting thing:

No matter how many times F-22 won dogfights, if it lose once, it's a defeat.
No matter how many times Rafi/Tiffi loses dogfights to F-22, if it won once, it's a victory.

They have no idea what exchange ratio is, and they refuse to talk about exchange ratio.

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-plane- ... n-dogfight

"It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM [Basic Fighter Maneuvering] engagements that were fought...We ended up with numerous gunshots"

"I did review the HUD footage, a lot of gun shots from the F-22's to the Eurofighters and not a whole lot coming back"
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gta4

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 02:46

https://www.flightglobal.com/about-us/b ... ouncement/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... -11248461/
This Phrase:
“in that area (dogfight) the Typhoon doesn't have to fear the F-22 in all aspects.”
is always misunderstood (maybe deliberately?) as:
“in that area the Typhoon doesn't have to fear the F-22 in any aspects.”

That is way too different. Even though I am not a native speaker, I know the former means "Typhoon still fears F-22 in some aspects of dogfight".
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f-16adf

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 03:44

Here is the original article I believe:


52715561.jpg




"doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects."

That sounds to me as though the Typhoon is being overwhelmed in the 'majority' if not more, of comparable parameters. The key words are "necessarily" and "all".



I remember back in the mid 1980s there was an article (don't remember the magazine) showing a F-15 Eagle in the gunsight of a RAF Jaguar. The pipper was clearly on the back of the F-15. This tells us nothing of the two jets. We don't know the ROE or the quality of the pilots involved. Even Active and Reserve Phantoms at times had gun kills on teen series jets. I love the Phantom, but it CLEARLY was inferior to all of them. The F-4 aviators must have been damn good, and the teen series pilots rookies. For example: "In the 1982 Felix International Fighter Meet, VF-201 equipped with ancient F-4N Phantoms took first place honors achieving a 15:2 kill ratio over USAF and USN adversaries flying the more modern and agile F-5E, F-14, F-15, and F-16."


Also, I am a huge Rafale, EF fan. But it is rather ironic when their fans tell us about how they killed the Raptor in DACT; yet they are totally SILENT when (at times) outdated teen series MLU/Turkish Vipers, Saudi Eagles, and Hornets have killed ALL THE EUROCANARDS IN DACT! Just do a search and you will find the pics/articles. Some of the vids are on YT.
Am I suppose to conclude that an ancient 1983 model MLU is superior to a 2010 Eurofighter? Or an aging early nineties Hornet is superior to Rafale? We don't know the ROE (neutral, offensive, defensive, 1v1, many v many). What about pilot skill? Their fans are being hypocritical and not applying the same criterion as when they beat on their chests about a rare Raptor kill.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 08:47

I think that article sums it up very well. F-22 is totally overwhelming in overall air combat capabilities due to dictating and dominating the fight from the start mainly due to VLO stealth and SA advantages. However EF Typhoon is definitely formidable in close combat due to having similar T/W ratio to F-22 and good aerodynamics while also having had HMS, HOBS missiles and IRST system while F-22 doesn't have those (except AIM-9X very recently). Dassault Rafale is roughly similar to EF Typhoon with some advantages and some disadvantages. I think it's actually pretty remarkable that F-22 has done so well even in close combat without HMS and HOBS missiles. I think that's because it has incredible aerodynamics, stealth, its sensors and sensor fusion likely help even there. Receiving HMS and HOBS missiles will make it even more dangerous close in.

I think it's great that F-22, EF Typhoon and Dassault Rafale have and do train with and against each other. F-22 is clearly the king in air combat, but both Eurocanards have capabilties that make them great opponents (and sidekicks) for F-22 and vice versa.
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juretrn

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 10:48

TNI is really something
" this article first appeared in 2013"
And then rehash it like once per month.
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zero-one

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 11:22

Typhoon vs Raptor
https://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.php
Britain's DERA, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (now split into QinetiQ and DSTL) wrote:the Eurofighter's acceleration at Mach 0.9 and 22,000ft equals that of the F-22. At supersonic velocities (Mach 1.6 and 36,000ft) the sustained turn rate of the Eurofighter betters all but the F-22, while its instantaneous turn rate is superior to the F-22. At low altitudes, Eurofighter can accelerate from 200kts to Mach 1.0 in under 30 seconds. In a similar vain to its supersonic performance, the sustained and instantaneous subsonic turn rates of the Eurofighter are bettered only by the F-22. Only the Rafale comes close to the matching the Eurofighter's capabilities in these comparisons


Safe to say whatever makes the Typhoon competitive against the Raptor isn't due to performance advantages
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juretrn

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Unread post24 Jun 2018, 21:40

That's a bad-ass photo right there!

Thanks for the insight both on the F-22 and F-35.
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wrightwing

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Unread post24 Jun 2018, 22:24

With the sensor upgrades, HMS/AIM-9X Block 2, etc... the F-22 is only going to get more lethal in WVR..
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