F-22's APG-77 vs decoys

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popcorn

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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 12:02

I do not presume to know how war planners would conduct a highly orchestrated air campaign. We think we know a lot but much is unknown about the real capabilities of various platforms like the F-22. Let alone other components of the US force structure. Same unknowns for the tactics that will be employed, given that many CONOPS are still being formulated and in flux. I do think your scenarios extremely simplistic and given what we don't know, highly speculative at best.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 13:10

zero-one wrote:in the opening hours of a coordinated air campaign against a highly advanced enemy. Much of the other assets that make a robust combat cloud won't be there in the first place.

As General hostage pointed out, No Growlers, No AWACs, No Rivet Joint, and no other 4th gen fighter support.
Its just F-22s and F-35s (and probably some B2s) deep passed the IADS lanes.

So you're correct in saying that 1v1 or a particular asset vs a particular asset isn't realistic.

Its not gona be F-22 vs PAK-Fa.

its more likely F-22 vs PAK-FA, Su-27,30,35, Mig-31, A-50, S-400 all data linked together.

But I still say its not a fair fight, they should add more PAK-FAs.


I don't know what realistic situation could result in Russia or China having all those assets in place and all of them datalinked together and USA not being able to bring similar assets to the party? Russia could have all of those protecting deep inside Russia, but it'd take a lot of effort from Russia to take them somewhere else. Same with China and I doubt anybody is going to risk full nuclear war against either one.

zero-one wrote:But what if the sky was filled with MALD like drones that emit RF signals, the F-22 may end up shooting cheap drones instead of genuine targets


I don't know how MALD like drones could be used inside own territory and not hamper other defenses a lot. Realistic drones are also quite expensive and launching salvos of them would require a lot of drones.
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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 14:05

popcorn wrote:I do not presume to know how war planners would conduct a highly orchestrated air campaign. We think we know a lot but much is unknown about the real capabilities of various platforms like the F-22. Let alone other components of the US force structure. Same unknowns for the tactics that will be employed, given that many CONOPS are still being formulated and in flux. I do think your scenarios extremely simplistic and given what we don't know, highly speculative at best.


We don't know and likely we never will, but lets work with what we do know. chances are, we are way off, but that will have to do.

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen- ... -starts/3/
In here, Gen Mike Hostage discusses how he expects to use American technological superiority in a future strike behind (A2\AD)

Gen Mike Hostage wrote:But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there


So in the first few moments of WW3, its gona be a pure 5th gen fleet.

It won't be outlandish to assume that they are expected to fight alone. Thats why these things are crammed with so many sensors and so much capability, so that they won't need to rely on other sensors/shooters and sharers
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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 15:54

The Combat Cloud could be comprised of F-22, F-35 and Legacy jets. If needed, B-2 could operate from day one. RQ-180 as well. In the future, LRSB. All adding their unique capabilities to the Cloud. Other non-AF systems may also contribute to the effectiveness of the Combat Cloud eg. AEGIS /SM-6, AN-TPY2/THAAD, etc. What about space-based sensors? This is just my layman's appreciation, it's a safe bet there's a lot more not in the public domain.

Gen. Hostage was making a specific point re unsuitabiliy of Growler jamming, it does not follow that it will be a 5Genshow exclusively at the start. Note the priority in developing 5Gen/4Gen datalink capability to enhance interoperability between the 2 generations.



http://www.sldinfo.com/shaping-the-way- ... he-future/

This combat cloud would be enabled by fifth generation aircraft and include the deployment of F-22s, a substantial number of F-35s and the ability to link to legacy aircraft. This capability would then define the approach to any systems added thereafter, such as the long-range ISR/strike aircraft...The core image, which the General put on the table of where the transition needs to go, is the ability to shape a combat cloud as a key element of the battlespace within which the various deployed aircraft interact together to shape air dominance to achieve joint force objectives...
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 16:53

mmm wrote:hell APG-81 antenna is even decade old


Tech Refresh 2 (TR2) comes to the F-35 as part of Block3i.

TR2 contains
The hardware per aircraft includes new radar modules, new Integrated Core
Processor modules and rack, and new electronic warfare modules.


For all intents and purposes, TR2 & new new modes it allows brings the radar up to APG-81(v)2
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post18 Aug 2015, 17:08

SpudmanWP wrote:
mmm wrote:hell APG-81 antenna is even decade old


Tech Refresh 2 (TR2) comes to the F-35 as part of Block3i.

TR2 contains
The hardware per aircraft includes new radar modules, new Integrated Core
Processor modules and rack, and new electronic warfare modules.


For all intents and purposes, TR2 & new new modes it allows brings the radar up to APG-81(v)2

wow, i haven't heard of that
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Unread post19 Aug 2015, 07:18

mmm wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I'd like to know what makes AN/APG-77 is dated design in your opinion?

APG-77 being one of the earliest fighter AESA by definition makes it dated. In terms of technology GaN MMIC and digital beamforming is the way forward.

hornetfinn wrote:What emerging technologies could not be foreseen in the days of ATF?

DEW, cyber, automation are the ones come to my mind first. Also F-22's range is woefully inadequate for pacific theatre IMO.


True, in the future there will be better technologies available. AN/APG-77 is one of the earlier operational fighter AESA radars but will likely remain one of the best for a long time. A lot of money and technologies were put into it and it's clear that it's continually upgraded and kept up to date. AWG-9 was one of the earliest planar array radars, but it remained one of the best for several decades. IMO, APG-77 will remain one of the best, if not the best air-to-air radar for a long time as it will likely be continually upgraded when technology advances.

Btw, IMO APG-77 uses digital beamforming, most likely at subarray level. Of course fully digital array with beamforming done at element (module) level would be even better. GaN is definitely a future trend as it offers tremendous advantages compared to GaAs. However all current fighter radar projects use GaAs and it might take 10-15 years before we see GaN fighter radar. Either AN/APG-81 or APG-77 might actually be the first to use it in some future variant.

DEW weapons, cyber warfare and automation were definitely known issues during the days of ATF (basically 1980s), although naturally now we understand the issues better. F-22 has pretty advanced automation and could be upgraded for cyber warfare if required. DEW weapons are nowhere near becoming operational in near term and F-22 might be retired before they are real capability.
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Unread post09 Oct 2015, 23:38

SpudmanWP wrote:
mmm wrote:hell APG-81 antenna is even decade old


Tech Refresh 2 (TR2) comes to the F-35 as part of Block3i.

TR2 contains
The hardware per aircraft includes new radar modules, new Integrated Core
Processor modules and rack, and new electronic warfare modules.


For all intents and purposes, TR2 & new new modes it allows brings the radar up to APG-81(v)2

That's new to me. All I remembered is that the processor is getting replaced. Good for them if they're working on an updated antenna. Can't tell what it will actually be from the excerpt but the expectation is that it will be up to date. Thanks for the info.

hornetfinn wrote:
mmm wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I'd like to know what makes AN/APG-77 is dated design in your opinion?

APG-77 being one of the earliest fighter AESA by definition makes it dated. In terms of technology GaN MMIC and digital beamforming is the way forward.

hornetfinn wrote:What emerging technologies could not be foreseen in the days of ATF?

DEW, cyber, automation are the ones come to my mind first. Also F-22's range is woefully inadequate for pacific theatre IMO.


True, in the future there will be better technologies available. AN/APG-77 is one of the earlier operational fighter AESA radars but will likely remain one of the best for a long time. A lot of money and technologies were put into it and it's clear that it's continually upgraded and kept up to date. AWG-9 was one of the earliest planar array radars, but it remained one of the best for several decades. IMO, APG-77 will remain one of the best, if not the best air-to-air radar for a long time as it will likely be continually upgraded when technology advances.

Btw, IMO APG-77 uses digital beamforming, most likely at subarray level. Of course fully digital array with beamforming done at element (module) level would be even better. GaN is definitely a future trend as it offers tremendous advantages compared to GaAs. However all current fighter radar projects use GaAs and it might take 10-15 years before we see GaN fighter radar. Either AN/APG-81 or APG-77 might actually be the first to use it in some future variant.

DEW weapons, cyber warfare and automation were definitely known issues during the days of ATF (basically 1980s), although naturally now we understand the issues better. F-22 has pretty advanced automation and could be upgraded for cyber warfare if required. DEW weapons are nowhere near becoming operational in near term and F-22 might be retired before they are real capability.


I can pretty much agree with everything. Consider how few operational fighter AESA there are even as of today, and those that are on par with APG-77 in terms of technology are only in US service, I've no doubt it is still one of the best today. The lack of serious effort for modernization and a fleet too small to make R&D dollar worthwhile is the real problem.

By emerging technology I really meant to say a battle space with those capability hosted on a variety of platforms, not just their application on F-22. Say assuming the requirement for ATF is formulated today, it could have been better account for those techs. To be fair F-22 did take some time to develop after the end of cold war, it was first of its kind, and having already spent a decade unchallenged.
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