F-22 MAWS?

uclass · by **uclass** » 27 Aug 2014, 11:38

What does the F-22 use for MAWS? I haven't heard about any kind of EODAS-like system and pulse doppler MAWS would compromise stealth surely. Any ideas (assuming it's not classified)?

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 27 Aug 2014, 13:54

It uses EODAS like system called AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/missile-launch-detector-mld/mfc-mld-pc.pdf

uclass · by **uclass** » 27 Aug 2014, 16:54

Cheers, I'd never heard of that before. How does it stand in relation to EODAS and sensor fusion?

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 27 Aug 2014, 17:51

It is purely a MAWS, it cannot give visual info to the pilot nor be used for land/air/sea vehicle tracking. Every system on the F-35 is more advanced than the parent system on the F-22. The F-22 radar even had to be retrofitted with the T/R modules fo the F-35 to maintain a range advantage for Air-to-Air. With the exception of long range Air-to-Air detection, everything the F-22 avionics can do the F-35's can do better.

uclass · by **uclass** » 27 Aug 2014, 17:58

Can it detect enemy aircraft, because the link states, "State-of-the-art image processing"?

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 28 Aug 2014, 02:46

While the image sensor on the AAR-56 does in fact capture a video stream, it lacks the capability to process that stream for anything more than basic MAWS functionality.

Here are two videos showing the RAW video stream from the AAR-56.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUj3JTe1nVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVrdQhYQI1M

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 28 Aug 2014, 09:25

If we compare AN/AAR-56 and AN/AAQ-37 (DAS) from the sensor end towards fighter systems and pilots we notice that the sensors themselves are similar. Both have staring focal plane array sensors which are somewhat like CCD sensors in current video cameras but in IR frequency. Both provide series of still images at about 25 to 30 frames per second usually although can be also higher. AAQ-37 most likely has quite significantly better sensor as it's a lot newer and IR sensor technology has improved a lot during that timeframe. It should see targets further away and also see targets which are cooler. Of course AAR-56 sensor can probably be upgraded, but I'm sure the current sensor is more than good enough for what it does (detect missiles). DAS sensor also needs to be better as it must detect and track also much cooler and more distant targets like other aircraft or be used in navigation besides being used in missile detection and warning. Of course technology has improved so that it's now possible to install much better IR sensors for lower cost than what it was when F-22 was designed.

Bigger difference is in how the system is integrated with the aircraft combat systems. AAR-56 seems to be integrated so that it can't send the video or images it sees to the aircraft systems or even to cockpit. It seems to be standalone system that does all (or at least most) of the processing within itself and only provides limited information (warning) to the aircraft systems. This means it's not part of the sensor fusion system like it DAS is part of F-35 sensor fusion system. It also means that it's not able to provide nearly similar situation awareness information about enemy and friendly aircraft, ground targets, navigation support etc. It's also not able to provide full IR vision for the pilot like DAS does. I'm sure the system could be upgraded to do the same, but the cost might be rather huge as it seems that F-22 is very expensive to upgrade. It might require fairly extensive upgrades to both hardware and software to provide DAS like capability from AAR-56. Especially the connection between sensors and aircraft combat systems probably needs to be upgraded and the software in the combat systems needs extensive additions and changes. Both would likely be costly. Of course if the aim would be to provide pilot with similar 360 degree view from AAR-56 sensors, it would require a new helmet for the pilot, totally upgraded cockpit to support the helmet and a lot of other hardware and especially software additions/changes. So, it's likely that AAR-56 will never be upgraded to AAQ-37 capability or even close to it, even though the sensors would be capable of doing that. I see F-22 having some of those capabilities in the future like maybe having the sensor data available for the sensor fusion and providing information about friendly and enemy aircraft.

uclass · by **uclass** » 30 Aug 2014, 11:59

Thanks for that.

I heard something about an EO/IR update. Will this improve AN/AAR-56 or its back end?

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 16 Feb 2018, 04:38

Maybe an upgrade to the F-22's AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/news/the ... cs-upgrade

Specifically, Merchant said, F-22 engineers were already exploring a lightweight DAS-like sensor system for the F-22, able to bring advanced tech to the F-22 without compromising stealth advantages or maneuverability.

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 16 Feb 2018, 07:57

The plan was always to upgrade the AAR-56, so that it could track jets as well as missile threats, as a defensive IRST.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 16 Feb 2018, 09:43

There was a plan? Got a link?

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 16 Feb 2018, 16:51

From the 2008 AAR-56 pdf.

Lockheed Martin continues to advance the modular design of MLD with the development of both high resolution and multi-spectral sensors and an expanded algorithm that incorporates situational awareness and defensive Infrared Search and Track (IRST).

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... mld-pc.pdf

tailgate · by **tailgate** » 16 Feb 2018, 17:34

Sorry, wrong thread.....lol

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 19 Feb 2018, 08:21

hornetfinn wrote:
Bigger difference is in how the system is integrated with the aircraft combat systems. AAR-56 seems to be integrated so that it can't send the video or images it sees to the aircraft systems or even to cockpit. It seems to be standalone system that does all (or at least most) of the processing within itself and only provides limited information (warning) to the aircraft systems. This means it's not part of the sensor fusion system like it DAS is part of F-35 sensor fusion system. It also means that it's not able to provide nearly similar situation awareness information about enemy and friendly aircraft, ground targets, navigation support etc. It's also not able to provide full IR vision for the pilot like DAS does. I'm sure the system could be upgraded to do the same, but the cost might be rather huge as it seems that F-22 is very expensive to upgrade. It might require fairly extensive upgrades to both hardware and software to provide DAS like capability from AAR-56. Especially the connection between sensors and aircraft combat systems probably needs to be upgraded and the software in the combat systems needs extensive additions and changes. Both would likely be costly. Of course if the aim would be to provide pilot with similar 360 degree view from AAR-56 sensors, it would require a new helmet for the pilot, totally upgraded cockpit to support the helmet and a lot of other hardware and especially software additions/changes. So, it's likely that AAR-56 will never be upgraded to AAQ-37 capability or even close to it, even though the sensors would be capable of doing that. I see F-22 having some of those capabilities in the future like maybe having the sensor data available for the sensor fusion and providing information about friendly and enemy aircraft.

All very much in agreement here. However (I'm just shooting in the dark here for my own self entertainment and indulgence) I'm thinking the AN/AAR-56 can be upgraded to an extent that it is more than just a MLD. I would think that by upgrading some pieces of hardware and putting in completely new software, the AN/AAR-56 can assist with cueing, tracking, and ID. Granted it wont be like DAS of the F-35 but it would definitely be worth it in my head...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ricks.aspx

One thing the jets could not share is the F-35’s electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), the diamond-shaped wedge under the F-35’s “chin” that provides many of the visual and infrared sensors other jets must carry in pods. Though the Air Force is considering an infrared search and track (IRST) system for the F-22 to help it better see stealthy adversaries, Merchant said, “we really don’t have the real estate” in the same location on the F-22. “We’re looking at other options.” He was unable to elaborate due to classification.

Do you think they would upgrade the AN/AAR-56 or put side looking radar in the nose?

The article also stated the need/want for a new helmet for the F-22. It doesn't have to be like the HMD on the F-35 that can superimpose imaging from DAS on the visor. Rather something closer to current JHMCS but a little more advanced.

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 19 Feb 2018, 12:14

charlielima223 wrote:All very much in agreement here. However (I'm just shooting in the dark here for my own self entertainment and indulgence) I'm thinking the AN/AAR-56 can be upgraded to an extent that it is more than just a MLD. I would think that by upgrading some pieces of hardware and putting in completely new software, the AN/AAR-56 can assist with cueing, tracking, and ID. Granted it wont be like DAS of the F-35 but it would definitely be worth it in my head...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ricks.aspx

One thing the jets could not share is the F-35’s electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), the diamond-shaped wedge under the F-35’s “chin” that provides many of the visual and infrared sensors other jets must carry in pods. Though the Air Force is considering an infrared search and track (IRST) system for the F-22 to help it better see stealthy adversaries, Merchant said, “we really don’t have the real estate” in the same location on the F-22. “We’re looking at other options.” He was unable to elaborate due to classification.

Do you think they would upgrade the AN/AAR-56 or put side looking radar in the nose?

The article also stated the need/want for a new helmet for the F-22. It doesn't have to be like the HMD on the F-35 that can superimpose imaging from DAS on the visor. Rather something closer to current JHMCS but a little more advanced.

I don't doubt that AN/AAR-56 could be upgraded to do much more than be just MLD/MAWS system. I get the impression that it's pretty much stand-alone system and isn't integrated with sensor fusion system (at least fully). So that would need some hardware changes in both AN/AAR-56 and also in the sensor fusion processing part and networking between those two. Of course there would need to be quite major software changes and additions with associated testing required. All that would be pretty expensive, although it would also give some nice new capabilites as well.

Side looking AESA arrays would also be interesting, although also expensive and having rather short range compared to main array. I think networking and large separation between aircraft is better solution than side arrays. I would go for upgrading AN/AAR-56 for SAIRST system and maybe they could also manage to squeeze long range IRST system somewhere in the airframe (for ID purposes mainly). Technology could come from F-35 naturally.